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First born replacing thunder warriors is very different. Thunder warriors were exterminated to be replaced. First born and primaris are not that different and primaris will only replace first born through natural waste and first born are given the opportunity to upgrade via the rubicon

Primaris for me, the models are leaps and bounds better than firstborn kits. Love building and painting them.

First Born, because while the Primaris models are amazing they're not as kit-bashable, and they look like some other company's attempt at not-SMs.

Deadnight wrote:
I mean to be fair, there were always a million patterns of bolters - tigris, umbra, phobos, godwyn, ultima etc. Same with power armour - there's 8 historical marks.

Back then they were all.s4, ap5 rapid fire. What's changed now is every variant is getting bespoke rules. To an extent, I personally don't have a problem with this - mkvi armour as stealthy and mk3 as crude but 'ard for example. Bolters too. Its nice to see some variation. However i don't disagree that its gone a bit too far.wmh was a bit like this - there nothing wrong with having a standard issue 'boltgun'.

Yeah, I guess my issue is how GW's notion of variance and tactical flexibility has changed with Primaris, where now everyone seems to have their own unique specialist model where before it was about their specifically interchangeable modularity. For me stuff like the Heresy pattern armor and the Badab War are what makes 40k come alive, the desperate and overtaxed forces, not primaris where it seems like they have a million specialist items always ready. The logic of the HH legions makes sense because of the vast scale they were operating on, I get what they're doing with primaris reflecting that but I don't think it fits a chapter, and it doesn't fit my image of the imperium (or at least what makes it as a body interesting to me).

Primaris, because Windows 8 is better than Windows 7.....no wait....

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Yeah, I guess my issue is how GW's notion of variance and tactical flexibility has changed with Primaris, where now everyone seems to have their own unique specialist model where before it was about their specifically interchangeable modularity.

I half agree but I think as well you have the cart before the horse a bit.

The variance has always existed lore-wise, they just never got flavoursome/bloated rules alongside - and in fairness we've been seeing fancier slightly more elite elites in the marine rosters with silly fancy names since at least fifth. I don't think gw's notions have changed with primaris - I would argue primaris are a symptom, rather than a cause. It's a more gws notions have changed as their tryng to introduce more modern gane design aspects into their as opposed to their more 'classic' approach, primaris are merely one thing that has been affected. put it this way - if primaris models were a thing 20years ago, would they have had a million bolt-nouns or would they have all been str4 ap5 rapid fire?

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

For me stuff like the Heresy pattern armor and the Badab War are what makes 40k come alive, the desperate and overtaxed forces, not primaris where it seems like they have a million specialist items always ready. The logic of the HH legions makes sense because of the vast scale they were operating on, I get what they're doing with primaris reflecting that but I don't think it fits a chapter, and it doesn't fit my image of the imperium (or at least what makes it as a body interesting to me).

I don't disagree with you here. Desperately trying to do as much as possible with limited resources is a 'draw'.

Imagine such a battle, OP? Loads of people have played them. Nowt to imagine.

Deadnight wrote:
I would argue primaris are a symptom, rather than a cause.

I think that's a fair distinction, but in practice, there's not a big difference for me, here. Whether they represent a change in kind or simply an escalation, they represent some cynical marketing tactics and game mechanics I disagree with. If my options are old marines which have some units that are symptoms of GW's strategies that I don't like or new marines which entirely represent symptoms of those strategies, I'd still pick the former.

Except centurions. They're hideous. I'd play primaris before fielding those awfully designed kits.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
I would argue primaris are a symptom, rather than a cause.

I think that's a fair distinction, but in practice, there's not a big difference for me, here. Whether they represent a change in kind or simply an escalation, they represent some cynical marketing tactics and game mechanics I disagree with. If my options are old marines which have some units that are symptoms of GW's strategies that I don't like or new marines which entirely represent symptoms of those strategies, I'd still pick the former.

Except centurions. They're hideous. I'd play primaris before fielding those awfully designed kits.

Totally fair!

Centurions can burn in the deepest darkest pits of hell if you ask me - theyre 'peak-kirby era'. There's plenty oldstartes that can join them imo - honestly the only 'old'startes models I can stomach and bring myself to buy - would be the mk3, mk4 and mk6 kits which are very recent. (Cant stand the 'regular' kits). If you ask me the heresy mks of armour are the pinnacle of bobblehead marine aesthetics. Like I said there is far too much oldstartes models that are walking tabernacles and over-blinged caricatures.

New marines absolutely are a cynical marketing ploy and I do chuckle at the rumours kirby just wanted to 'end times' 40k and scorch the old stuff altogether (you know, it could have been SO MUCH WORSE as well as being an even more TERRIBLE-ER IDEA). That said the modern designs and looks are to me, so good, and so far ahead of what marines were (of course my entirely subjective opinion) that I'll forgive the cynical marketing because it made me fall in love with marines again. And they are still compatible with a lot of the old shoulder guards backpacks helmets and bolters/weapons (if you're clever) that I have not lost out on any modelling opportunities either.

Every so often I meet someone who likes centurions. The mind boggles.

Yeah, old marines are far from perfect, there's a lieutenant that I've been almost ready to paint for a while now where I can't quite figure out how to fix the "bobblehead" effect, and I fully admit bias favoring what I grew up playing.

And yeah, it definitely could have been worse, looking at the first couple waves. Honestly, I'd probably be all over them if they were just like "yarp, we're effectively rebooting the line, here's the next gen of marine armor, it's taller and here's some exclusive new guns to incentivize playing them, we're phasing out short marines with a direct improvement," but the marketing just left me feeling bad.

(To be clear, this would look like a regular kit replacement that adds new options, vs. wholly new entries)

I like Centurions because they look funny. But I'll always prefer Terminators.

Lore wise i like more First Born characters as Primaris are still new and don't have many well written characters as of yet. I also have to say that i really fething hate that their writing for CSM is so awful. I would love more CSM books and competency. gak i would love to see some Primaris turn to chaos and get Primaris CSM or some gak. Tabletop wise i like Primaris more they feel "cleaner" and their armor is a bit more badass and i love their weapons. That being said my Custodes are my true love and Primaris are babies compared to my golden banana men

I love the Primaris models I just really don't like the way they were pushed rule-wise or fluff-wise.

Personally I was looking forward to retiring my 40k army to 30k with new and shiny Primaris models replacing the generic leaders and units then buying my named characters as they came out.

But GW made Primaris specific units and Primaris unable to mix with firstborn and my hard-on went limp.

Firstborn, because Primaris look like some cheap russian knock-offs.