Can a hive tyrant have shardgullet and heavy venom cannon ?

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**p5freak**

You replace bonesword and lash whip with a heavy venom cannon. You then replace the heavy venom cannon with shardgullet. You then replace the monstrous scything talons with a heavy venom cannon. Shardgullet is not a heavy venom cannon, it replaces a heavy venom cannon, its a different weapon. There is nothing in the rules saying that a relic counts as the same weapon that it replaces. Legal, or not ?

A Hive Tyrant is equipped with: monstrous bonesword; 2 monstrous scything talons; lash whip.

WARGEAR OPTIONS
• This model’s monstrous bonesword and lash whip can be replaced with one of the following: 1 heavy venom cannon; 1 stranglethorn cannon.
• This model’s 2 monstrous scything talons can be replaced with one of the following: 1 heavy venom cannon; 1 stranglethorn cannon. This model cannot be equipped with both a stranglethorn cannon and a heavy venom cannon.
• This model can be equipped with 1 adrenal glands.
• This model can be equipped with 1 toxin sacs.

This model cannot be equipped with more than 1 heavy venom cannon and cannot be equipped with more than 1 stranglethorn cannon.

SHARDGULLET

Model equipped with heavy venom cannon only. This Relic replaces a heavy venom cannon and has the following profile...

**DeathReaper**

Edit:
Alextroy is correct when he said:

"Relics are not a selection on the datasheet, so their effects cannot be used when selecting the model to add to your army."

So it is not legal to do so.

**Jidmah**

While not being explicitly spelled out, choosing your warlord before you have finished selecting your entire army would break multiple existing rules, like Royal Court for necrons or Mortarion's and Magnus' primarch rules.

Therefore you would have to add an illegal model to your army before even having a chance to replace one weapon with a relic, as a warlord is a prerequisite to choosing relics.

**p5freak**

Some say you must first pick weapons, then decice who your warlord is, and then pick relics, because of pg. 251. Then it would be illegal, because you cant choose two heavy venom cannons. But i dont see pg. 251 as a fixed order where you start at 1 and go to 9.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

P.S. your melee attacks suck if you do this, but you can do it per RAW.

Your melee attacks suck even more when you dont get into melee. With shardgullet and heavy venom cannon the tyrant can shoot, and can even shoot those guns in melee. You cant shoot with melee weapons.

**JohnnyHell**

Yawn. This isn’t really a rules query. It’s an “I found an edge case on Reddit” type thread. Give it a rest…

And as Jidmah says you would be trying to add a Relic to an already-illegal model, so it’s a nope for me.

**alextroy**

You are assuming you can select an illegal model, Tyrant with two Heavy Venom Cannons, and then assign a relic to that model to make it magically legal since the Shardgullet isn't a Venom Cannon.

Nothing in the rules allows this. Relics are not a selection on the datasheet, so their effects cannot be used when selecting the model to add to your army. By this logic, I'm sure there are many other weird weapon combinations you can build be replacing an item with a relic and then reselecting that item when you can't have two of the basic item on the model.

**p5freak**

JohnnyHell wrote:
Yawn. This isn’t really a rules query. It’s an “I found an edge case on Reddit” type thread. Give it a rest…

And as Jidmah says you would be trying to add a Relic to an already-illegal model, so it’s a nope for me.

alextroy wrote:
You are assuming you can select an illegal model, Tyrant with two Heavy Venom Cannons, and then assign a relic to that model to make it magically legal since the Shardgullet isn't a Venom Cannon.

Nothing in the rules allows this. Relics are not a selection on the datasheet, so their effects cannot be used when selecting the model to add to your army. By this logic, I'm sure there are many other weird weapon combinations you can build be replacing an item with a relic and then reselecting that item when you can't have two of the basic item on the model.

Where is it illegal when i first replace the sword and whip with a HVC, then i replace the HVC with shardgullet, and after that i replace the talons with a HVC. I dont have more than one HVC at any time.

**Jidmah**

Tyranid relics can only be added to models that are part of your army (text above nid relics in codex).
You chose wargear options only when you add a model to your army (BRB datasheets, step 9).

Thus, altering wargear after replacing a relic is illegal.

**JohnnyHell**

Yep. The order of operations you posit, p5freak, simply isn’t possible whilst following the rules. Leave this one to Reddit.

**p5freak**

Jidmah wrote:
Tyranid relics can only be added to models that are part of your army (text above nid relics in codex).
You chose wargear options only when you add a model to your army (BRB datasheets, step 9).

Thus, altering wargear after replacing a relic is illegal.

What BRB datasheets are you talking about ? On pg. 202, which is called datasheets, 9 is keywords ?

JohnnyHell wrote:
Yep. The order of operations you posit, p5freak, simply isn’t possible whilst following the rules. Leave this one to Reddit.

What exactly is the order of operations ? Where in the rules is that order of operations ? You havent provided a rules citation, just saying no you cant doesnt work.

**Jidmah**

p5freak wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Tyranid relics can only be added to models that are part of your army (text above nid relics in codex).
You chose wargear options only when you add a model to your army (BRB datasheets, step 9).

Thus, altering wargear after replacing a relic is illegal.

What BRB datasheets are you talking about ? On pg. 202, which is called datasheets, 9 is keywords ?

Yeah, it was a typo, wargear is 8. Did you seriously not manage to deduct that?

What exactly is the order of operations ? Where in the rules is that order of operations ? You havent provided a rules citation, just saying no you cant doesnt work.

A unit choses wargear while it is being added to your army.
A unit gets relic after it has been added to your army.

He clearly was referring to the rules I cited above.

**JohnnyHell**

I should have known better to post in a p5 barrel-scraping thread. I swear he gets off on riling people needlessly through bad faith arguing.

**Dudeface**

Valid or otherwise, the intent is very clear imo and I can't imagine event organisers allowing it nor casual opponents, you might be "technically possibly correct" having that loadout, but you won't get a game in.

**p5freak**

Removed - Rule #1 please..

**Jidmah**

Removed - Rule #1 please.