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Flyer, Superheavy, Bikes. Any kind of good mid-long range volume shooting unit.

I would like to see Kroot get the Harlequin treatment, where they can field an army of just their own models. Just bringing back and updating the rules for the Knarloc Riders and Great Knarloc would technically be enough, but it would be nice to explore some of the other things Kroot can do. There are flying Kroot (yes I know that would step on the toes of the Vespid a little, but if they were CC focused rather than shooting, they'd be different enough.) Also, there are Kroot Psykers, it would be nice for the Tau to have a little bit of deny power even if they are still really weak in the Psycic phase. I mean, that is the point of the Auxiliaries (at least lore wise) to fill in the gaps in their strategies.

On that note, more Auxilliary races. There are plenty of units for the Tau proper, but lots of other races. I mean, the Inquisition can take Jokearo Weaponsmiths and the Tau cant, even though the Jokearo are allies with the Tau, at least at that data slate to the Tau codex, would be a nice little buffing unit.

Beyond that, bring back Necron Pariahs, they were awesome.

 Blackie wrote:
Space Wolves: nothing. I actually pursposefull ignore 75% of the codex/supplements units since I don't need them and don't like the models.

I sort of agree.

I would like some rules changes (like Wolf Guard keyword actually doing something meaningful, Long Fangs can split fire by shot, not weapon, Fenrisian Wolves gain Bodyguard keyword), and some wargear changes (Helfrost Pistol option on more than Techmarine, maybe a Helfrost Rifle, Grey Hunters can take Sternguard Special Issue Boltgun at +1 pt/ea), and some point changes (Wolf Guard keyword can take Combi- at reduced cost, Hounds of Morkai to 20 ppm and -1 AP on knife, Scouts down a point or up a point but +1W). Maybe move Reivers/Hounds of Morkai to Fast Attack and move speed to 10", Scouts also to Fast Attack.

But as far as missing units... Lone Wolf? I think they could probably probably just roll that into the Chapter Champion upgrade for Company Champion. Like swap Skillful Parry for a fight on death for free (maybe even if they already fought), and upgrade Exquisite Swordsman to be Character and Monster instead of just Character. Same +15 points, but can't be warlord and can't take a warlord trait.
Wolf Guard on Bike... roll into Bike Squad but give the option to trade out Swiftclaws(Berserk Charge and Headstrong) keyword for Wolf Guard keyword and +1 Attack base and additional Chainsword (which has the normal melee weapon swap options). Say, +3 points a model?
If we're consolidating datasheets, I'd probably also fold Wolf Guard into Company Veterans but add the jump pack option (still at +4 points). Maybe tack Wolf Priests (Chaplains) into their Command Squad rule to make up for the smaller squad size. Company Vets are +1 point over Wolf Guard, but add Bodyguard, Command Squad, +1 leadership on the Sergeant, and slightly more weapon options, so probably balanced.

If I was doing Primaris version of Blood Claws, I'd just start with Assault Intercessors with the Swiftclaws keyword. But instead of +1 attack with Berserk Charge, make it +1 Strength with Shock Assault. So not quite as good as +1 attack, but up more often. Primaris Skyclaws just add a jump pack for +2 points.
Primaris Grey Hunters: Sternguard but with 1/5 swap for Combi- instead of any number, and a free chainsword on everyone. Same 20 points a model.
Primaris Pack Leaders: can be added to any Troop (and Skyclaws). Power Armor version is a Bladeguard Sergeant, "Terminator" is a Gravis, probably Aggressor Sergeant. Primaris Skyclaw Wolf Guard pack leader probably an Inceptor with Aggressor arms.

 PaddyMick wrote:
Orks (and plenty of other armies) could do with leuitenant or lower level characters to lead smaller forces. Also more oddboyz that don't take up slots, with more wargear options.

Yep, Bigboss please, and slotless Oddboyz for a Warboss' retinue.

 PaddyMick wrote:
the ability to mix clans in the same detachment.

This is all I *really* want for Orks.

 Dysartes wrote:

Mimes might be a cool idea, too - an Infiltrator unit, possibly? Any thoughts on how you'd distinguish them from the Troupe in terms of design?

Mimes would need to really distinguish themselves from Solitaires rather than Troupes, IMO.

They could be set up as the Harlequin equivalent to a Callidus though...

Imperial Knights could do with just one more variant of Armiger, to spice up combat patrols. At the moment its basically pick either a Helverin or Armiger, and thats it. In this respect the grass is much greener for Chaos Knights...

I'd like to see a Great Harlequin or just something new to look forward to.

 PaddyMick wrote:
Orks (and plenty of other armies) could do with leuitenant or lower level characters to lead smaller forces.

Lower level characters aren't needed to lead smaller forces. You get a free relic and WL trait and throwing those on a lower level character is generally a waste. Orks also have the Warboss upgrade for when you need to denote a Warboss for being extra important.

 Tawnis wrote:
I would like to see Kroot get the Harlequin treatment, where they can field an army of just their own models. Just bringing back and updating the rules for the Knarloc Riders and Great Knarloc would technically be enough, but it would be nice to explore some of the other things Kroot can do. There are flying Kroot (yes I know that would step on the toes of the Vespid a little, but if they were CC focused rather than shooting, they'd be different enough.) Also, there are Kroot Psykers, it would be nice for the Tau to have a little bit of deny power even if they are still really weak in the Psycic phase. I mean, that is the point of the Auxiliaries (at least lore wise) to fill in the gaps in their strategies.

On that note, more Auxilliary races. There are plenty of units for the Tau proper, but lots of other races. I mean, the Inquisition can take Jokearo Weaponsmiths and the Tau cant, even though the Jokearo are allies with the Tau, at least at that data slate to the Tau codex, would be a nice little buffing unit.

"Yeah, an anti-psyker melee battlesuit is exactly what Tau needs" - GW /sarcasm

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Mimes might be a cool idea, too - an Infiltrator unit, possibly? Any thoughts on how you'd distinguish them from the Troupe in terms of design?

Mimes would need to really distinguish themselves from Solitaires rather than Troupes, IMO.

They could be set up as the Harlequin equivalent to a Callidus though...

I had Mimes down in my head as a unit, rather than a character - that alone should be enough to distinguish them from the Solitaire, no?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Mimes might be a cool idea, too - an Infiltrator unit, possibly? Any thoughts on how you'd distinguish them from the Troupe in terms of design?

Mimes would need to really distinguish themselves from Solitaires rather than Troupes, IMO.

They could be set up as the Harlequin equivalent to a Callidus though...

I had Mimes down in my head as a unit, rather than a character - that alone should be enough to distinguish them from the Solitaire, no?

4 out of 8 Harlequins datasheets are already characters.... they definitely don't need another one. A second infantry squad would be nice instead! Infiltrator or even a dedicated shooting unit maybe.

 vict0988 wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:
Orks (and plenty of other armies) could do with leuitenant or lower level characters to lead smaller forces.

Lower level characters aren't needed to lead smaller forces. You get a free relic and WL trait and throwing those on a lower level character is generally a waste. Orks also have the Warboss upgrade for when you need to denote a Warboss for being extra important.

Maybe your right if we are only thinking about building an army to be competative. However I'd quite like the option, to fit my fluff, to have a lower level boss to lead a patrol, or a right hand man in the big army for the warboss, for example.

 PaddyMick wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:
Orks (and plenty of other armies) could do with leuitenant or lower level characters to lead smaller forces.

Lower level characters aren't needed to lead smaller forces. You get a free relic and WL trait and throwing those on a lower level character is generally a waste. Orks also have the Warboss upgrade for when you need to denote a Warboss for being extra important.

Maybe your right if we are only thinking about building an army to be competative. However I'd quite like the option, to fit my fluff, to have a lower level boss to lead a patrol, or a right hand man in the big army for the warboss, for example.

Having a kickass HQ is cool, in Crusade you'll want a character that can lead armies from 25-100 PL. In a big army I'd refer back to the Stratagem. One Warboss can cover one part of your army while the other one covers another part. People were spamming Daemon Princes, no reason why Warbosses cannot be spammed except pts-efficiency. You aren't missing out on too much, you could try to post and playtest a homebrew big boss you'd like to have in the suggested rules section of the forum.

 vict0988 wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:
Orks (and plenty of other armies) could do with leuitenant or lower level characters to lead smaller forces.

Lower level characters aren't needed to lead smaller forces. You get a free relic and WL trait and throwing those on a lower level character is generally a waste. Orks also have the Warboss upgrade for when you need to denote a Warboss for being extra important.

The thing is, you can't call a Waaagh! without a warboss, and you cannot promote another character to be a warboss like you could in the previous codex because both the corresponding warlord trait and upgrade stratagem have been taken away, as well as the upgrade for bigger warbosses.

Leading a small ork force with anything but a warboss or speedboss is pretty much on the same level having a canoness lead a space marine army - you can technically do it and it might be fluffy, but your army is going to be crap on the tabletop.

 Jidmah wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:
Orks (and plenty of other armies) could do with leuitenant or lower level characters to lead smaller forces.

Lower level characters aren't needed to lead smaller forces. You get a free relic and WL trait and throwing those on a lower level character is generally a waste. Orks also have the Warboss upgrade for when you need to denote a Warboss for being extra important.

The thing is, you can't call a Waaagh! without a warboss, and you cannot promote another character to be a warboss like you could in the previous codex because both the corresponding warlord trait and upgrade stratagem have been taken away, as well as the upgrade for bigger warbosses.

Leading a small ork force with anything but a warboss or speedboss is pretty much on the same level having a canoness lead a space marine army - you can technically do it and it might be fluffy, but your army is going to be crap on the tabletop.

Depends what you've built.
In my Grot force the Warboss (and calling a Waaagh!) is almost irrelevant. Other than himself there's nothing for him to affect with the Waagh. And, Crusade or matched, the force definitely is not crap on the tabletop.
I have a WB in MA in the list because:
A) In Crusade I'm not allowed to lead the Crusade with either Makari or the Red Gobbo. There are no generic Grot characters, so I need an Ork of some sort. If I must have an Ork? Well, the MAWB is the most useful to me.
In matched play the force is always led by either Makari or the Red Gobbo.
B) Crusade or Matched, without the some sort of Ork I'd be limited to at most two detachments. That'll certainly work as nearly everything is Fast/Heavy, but having access to a 3rd detachment is still useful. And as I STILL don't want an Ork character, I'll be damned if I'm going to buy another one of some sort when I already own the one I need Crusade wise....

 Jidmah wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:
Orks (and plenty of other armies) could do with leuitenant or lower level characters to lead smaller forces.

Lower level characters aren't needed to lead smaller forces. You get a free relic and WL trait and throwing those on a lower level character is generally a waste. Orks also have the Warboss upgrade for when you need to denote a Warboss for being extra important.

The thing is, you can't call a Waaagh! without a warboss, and you cannot promote another character to be a warboss like you could in the previous codex because both the corresponding warlord trait and upgrade stratagem have been taken away, as well as the upgrade for bigger warbosses.

Leading a small ork force with anything but a warboss or speedboss is pretty much on the same level having a canoness lead a space marine army - you can technically do it and it might be fluffy, but your army is going to be crap on the tabletop.

If the hypothetical Big Boss had the WARBOSS keyword it wouldn't be a problem, it's a shame they removed the upgrade Stratagems, can't believe GW wasted so much of people's time and money on Psychic Awakening only to wipe it away almost entirely.

ccs wrote:

Spoiler:

Depends what you've built.
In my Grot force the Warboss (and calling a Waaagh!) is almost irrelevant. Other than himself there's nothing for him to affect with the Waagh. And, Crusade or matched, the force definitely is not crap on the tabletop.
I have a WB in MA in the list because:
A) In Crusade I'm not allowed to lead the Crusade with either Makari or the Red Gobbo. There are no generic Grot characters, so I need an Ork of some sort. If I must have an Ork? Well, the MAWB is the most useful to me.
In matched play the force is always led by either Makari or the Red Gobbo.
B) Crusade or Matched, without the some sort of Ork I'd be limited to at most two detachments. That'll certainly work as nearly everything is Fast/Heavy, but having access to a 3rd detachment is still useful. And as I STILL don't want an Ork character, I'll be damned if I'm going to buy another one of some sort when I already own the one I need Crusade wise....

Look, I appreciate you having fun playing shark with your gretchins in your local fishpond, but your experience doesn't really match what happens when people meet opponents who actually build a coherent force and play to win.

Orks already struggle to fight off "one of everything" crusade forces unless you bring at least a somewhat competitive build, playing without a Waaagh! isn't an option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:
If the hypothetical Big Boss had the WARBOSS keyword it wouldn't be a problem, it's a shame they removed the upgrade Stratagems, can't believe GW wasted so much of people's time and money on Psychic Awakening only to wipe it away almost entirely.

Well, they kept all the kustom jobs and stratagems from PA that no one used around, so people could continue to no use them. Almost everything good or fun from that book disappeared.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:
I would like to see Kroot get the Harlequin treatment, where they can field an army of just their own models. Just bringing back and updating the rules for the Knarloc Riders and Great Knarloc would technically be enough, but it would be nice to explore some of the other things Kroot can do. There are flying Kroot (yes I know that would step on the toes of the Vespid a little, but if they were CC focused rather than shooting, they'd be different enough.) Also, there are Kroot Psykers, it would be nice for the Tau to have a little bit of deny power even if they are still really weak in the Psycic phase. I mean, that is the point of the Auxiliaries (at least lore wise) to fill in the gaps in their strategies.

On that note, more Auxilliary races. There are plenty of units for the Tau proper, but lots of other races. I mean, the Inquisition can take Jokearo Weaponsmiths and the Tau cant, even though the Jokearo are allies with the Tau, at least at that data slate to the Tau codex, would be a nice little buffing unit.

"Yeah, an anti-psyker melee battlesuit is exactly what Tau needs" - GW /sarcasm

I thought this was about what models we wanted for the factions. What balance we want for the factions is a whole different thing.

Deathwatch is as bloated as any other marine sub-faction, but if I were to say anything:

Suppressors as an option in one of the kill teams.

The standard Intercessor Kill Team is in an awkward spot. A lot of its 8th identity became the Gravis Kill Team based around Heavy Intercessors and the basic boys are just an odd mix of leftover Primaris options. Not sure what they need, but right now there's a lot of melee here that doesn't really work, leaving them as basically Hellblasters ablative wounds.

 Dysartes wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Clowns - A better Great Harlequin kit. Also Mimes.

Wouldn't an actual Great Harlequin kit/unit be a better wish? I see a Troupe Master as an option in the ToC from the Eldar 'dex, but no sign of the Great Harlequin.

Mimes might be a cool idea, too - an Infiltrator unit, possibly? Any thoughts on how you'd distinguish them from the Troupe in terms of design?

So canonically there's a differentiation, but I'm an old fether so I tend to call the "Troupe Master" Great Harlequin because it's what I'm used to. I'm not old enough to call them "High Avatar" though. The signature flags need to make a comeback though, they're a cool motif.



Yeah, they'd be an Infiltrator unit. If you go back to the original Mime entry in Rogue Trader, they were actually substantially more elite than Troupers - higher WS and BS, 2 wounds (when that wasn't very common), 2 attacks the the OG Harlequin's 1, and higher mental stats and Initiative. So I'd make them a more elite unit, definitely. Give them that pre-game move or the ability to set up anywhere not within 9" of the enemy.

Hecaton wrote:

Spoiler:

 Dysartes wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Clowns - A better Great Harlequin kit. Also Mimes.

Wouldn't an actual Great Harlequin kit/unit be a better wish? I see a Troupe Master as an option in the ToC from the Eldar 'dex, but no sign of the Great Harlequin.

Mimes might be a cool idea, too - an Infiltrator unit, possibly? Any thoughts on how you'd distinguish them from the Troupe in terms of design?

So canonically there's a differentiation, but I'm an old fether so I tend to call the "Troupe Master" Great Harlequin because it's what I'm used to. I'm not old enough to call them "High Avatar" though. The signature flags need to make a comeback though, they're a cool motif.



Yeah, they'd be an Infiltrator unit. If you go back to the original Mime entry in Rogue Trader, they were actually substantially more elite than Troupers - higher WS and BS, 2 wounds (when that wasn't very common), 2 attacks the the OG Harlequin's 1, and higher mental stats and Initiative. So I'd make them a more elite unit, definitely. Give them that pre-game move or the ability to set up anywhere not within 9" of the enemy.

I really like 3 model elite units, like Deathshroud or Eliminators. A 3~6 size unit of Mimes in the Elite slot would be cool.

For TSons, we always get the old pyschic dread request, but given my love of 3 model elite units I also like the idea of a Spellblade or a 'While You Were Casting, I Studied the Blade" style unit. 3 models with no dusty Rubrics/Scarabs, it could be a Master and his two Apprentices (in scout armour) to keep a bit more on theme with the low numbers of actual TSons.

Great idea for a thread.

For years I've been more painting and modeling than playing so I'm coming more from that point of view.

Imperial Guard - A fun unit! Just give me a unit of commandos who can take anything, power swords, flamers, heavy weapons, whatever, something like the new DKK plastic unit or the old Catachan Devils. Give them infiltrate, cameo and let them loose to do their jobs. An A-Team, Last Chancers, GI Joe, Howling Commandos, Easy Company type unit so I can give them all cool nick names like Icepick and rules that at least give them a vague chance of doing something other than dying. Vet and command squads are too regimented and meant for long range shooting, I'm looking more for action movie heroes.

Oh and jeeps. And a troop truck. Cheap options, not more supertanks!


Oh and a Thunderbolt kit. With work it could include the Lightning and the Avenger too, but at least the Thunderbolt.

Oh and fortifications, actually in the codex. Why is it the gunline WWI army doesn't have this option built in? I'm thinking a squad upgrade, 12" defense line, +2 saves, 20 points. 40 points for a 8"x8" bunker that offers 360 degree protection.

For Space Marines I'd mostly want to just combine all the identical unit lists into one (IE: Land Raiders, Land Speeders, Storm Speeders, etc.) other then that maybe add something that allows Scouts as Troops choices as long as you're taking "X" HQ unit for those people who want to.

It would be nice to have more indirect fire options for Chaos Space Marines.

@kid kyoto
those are some neat ideas. I have been reading some old WD's - there's a last chancers battle report, it's awesome (the squad goes up against 1000pts of chaos spae marines and wins)

 Jidmah wrote:

Look, I appreciate you having fun playing shark with your gretchins in your local fishpond, but your experience doesn't really match what happens when people meet opponents who actually build a coherent force and play to win.

Despite the constant tourney talk most peoples 40k experience is centered upon their local scene. Or fishpond as you so insultingly term it.

So you don't think my opponents are building coherent forces? That they aren't playing to win?
The kid with his Net List Crusher stampede? The guy playing the same Custode list as nearly everyone else on the planet? My (Imperial) Knights foes with some combo of 2-3 large+ knights & fill in with smaller ones? (Knights are very popular in my area atm). All those people playing combo xyz in their army because they've taken on-line advice?
Pray tell, how should my last opponent have set up his list? He had 3 Armigers (autocannons & meltas) & 3 Questoris (all with AT rocket pods, 1x thermal gun/gattling, 1x sword & fist, 1x rapid battlecannon & Endless Fury cannon). Bear in mind he had no idea he'd be facing mechanized Gretchin. And I assure you he was playing to win.

 Jidmah wrote:
Orks already struggle to fight off "one of everything" crusade forces unless you bring at least a somewhat competitive build, playing without a Waaagh! isn't an option.

Eh, I can see that as a possibility for proper Orks. A players over reliance on BS5 + little/no AP + almost non-existent saves + poor morale? That is not a recipe for success.... So I imagine calling a Waaagh! would help a bit.

Guard are pretty well covered. I just wish GW brought back some of the legend units in plastic, as well as moved the FW units in plastic. Such as:

Update:
- Update Valkyrie kit to assemble one of the following: Valkyrie, Vendetta, or Vulture.
- Update Basilisk kit to assemble one of the following: Basilisk, Griffon, or Medusa. Could reintroduce the old Chimera based Colossus.

New:
- Put all the Macharius variants into a single kit like the Baneblade.
- Put all the Malcador variants, including Valdor and Minotaur, into a single kit like the Baneblade.
- Centaur kit in plastic, add light tank option.



Tons of FW units could be foldered into existing or new multi-part plastic kits. Though if we’re talking about a single gap the Guard range is missing, light vehicles. Something between Sentinel and Chimera. Actual armoured cars would be awesome.

Custodes: A meaningful place in the game. We are currently just over costed Marines. We shoot like crap, our attacks are worthless against anything with multi-wound or -1 to damage, and our ability to hold objectives is doo doo. The majority of our plastic models are not worth their points, and we rely entirely on over priced FW models.

Jarms48 wrote:
Guard are pretty well covered.

Guard needs their most iconic unit back in the game. Rough Riders!

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Custodes: A meaningful place in the game. We are currently just over costed Marines. We shoot like crap, our attacks are worthless against anything with multi-wound or -1 to damage, and our ability to hold objectives is doo doo. The majority of our plastic models are not worth their points, and we rely entirely on over priced FW models.

Considering their place in the setting is redundant it makes sense their place in the game is too.

Hecaton wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Custodes: A meaningful place in the game. We are currently just over costed Marines. We shoot like crap, our attacks are worthless against anything with multi-wound or -1 to damage, and our ability to hold objectives is doo doo. The majority of our plastic models are not worth their points, and we rely entirely on over priced FW models.

Considering their place in the setting is redundant it makes sense their place in the game is too.

You aren't wrong, and I fully admit they need to be removed to be a fluff only faction, but at the rate GW is throwing crap at the walls, no way they are giving up a faction.

If contemporary Space Marines weren't organized in Chapters, I'd agree that Custodes' place in the setting was redundant...

But Marines ARE organized in Chapters, so I don't agree.

Custodes' role is twofold: First and foremost, defend Terra. I don't think there are any Chapters pledged to do the same, and even if there were, they'd be a mere 1000 fighters.

The second role- accompanying Torchbearer and Indomitus fleets- is more recent, and theoretically, not a permanent role. I can't think of a Marine Chapter that exclusively does this either.