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Hello guys,

I have watched maybe one to two dozen yT batreps of 30K games so far. One thing which surprised me was the absence of Specialist Flamer squads (10 marines all equipped with flamers). Why is this the case? Seems to me that those would be able to force a lot of saving throws from opposing units. Or is this the reason why they are not popular because the opponent gets to roll saves when you would rather prefer to attack with AP2 or AP3 weapons after having already spend points on a praetor and your tactical units? They would be also great on Overwatch dealing 10 D3 automatic hits. I have searched my bitz boxes and have access to ten flamers. So it would be easy to build them without having to spend money on a specialist weapon sprue.

Last question:
Does the sgt. of the specialist squad have to be equipped with the special weapon or is he allowed to be equipped with traditional sgt. weapons like pistols and ccw?

Thoughts?

1 - Compared to other options, flamers are generally the worst. You can swap them out for free for Volkite Chargers which are better.
2 - Yes Sergeants have to take the same weapon.

I am not familiar with the Volkite weapon. What´s their profile look like?

Hmm, I think those flamers are still as costly as those Volkites because you can potentially also play against non-power armoured models in 30K which will be brutally ignited by ten flamer shots.

Volkite Chargers are S5, AP5 and have a range of 15" with the Deflagrate rule which gives you extra wounds on failed armour saves. So even against lightly armoured units like Militia squads or Adescularis the Volkite is better.

The main issue with flamer squads is you only get to use them once, if at all. Your opponent certainly won't voluntarily walk into their range or let you walk them into range. You need a delivery system to get them to their target, which makes them cost even more.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The main issue with flamer squads is you only get to use them once, if at all. Your opponent certainly won't voluntarily walk into their range or let you walk them into range. You need a delivery system to get them to their target, which makes them cost even more.

I just heard a veteran IH player talk about his experiences with his army on yT. Some kind of trait allowed him to use his tanks with the Outflank USR. So his MO was popping transports from the opposition and barbecueing the passengers with his own flamer squad which was transported via an outflanking Rhino.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
Volkite Chargers are S5, AP5 and have a range of 15" with the Deflagrate rule which gives you extra wounds on failed armour saves. So even against lightly armoured units like Militia squads or Adescularis the Volkite is better.

Do wounds spill over from one W1 model to another? If not there is no advantage versus most models. Besides flamers need no to hit roll and ignore cover saves which is just vastly better against GEQs.

What kind of weapons are Volkite chargers? Assault or Rapid-Fire?

 Strg Alt wrote:
Do wounds spill over from one W1 model to another? If not there is no advantage versus most models. Besides flamers need no to hit roll and ignore cover saves which is just vastly better against GEQs.

What kind of weapons are Volkite chargers? Assault or Rapid-Fire?

Wounds are taken on the unit, not the model. As for hit rolls you are using Space Marines hitting on 3's, auto hit isn't the upgrade it is for armies with lower BS, and ignoring cover isn't better than free wounds. Volkite Chargers are also Assault weapons with 2 shots. They are objectively better than Flamers for everyone but Deathguard as they get chem munitions.

 Gert wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Do wounds spill over from one W1 model to another? If not there is no advantage versus most models. Besides flamers need no to hit roll and ignore cover saves which is just vastly better against GEQs.

What kind of weapons are Volkite chargers? Assault or Rapid-Fire?

Wounds are taken on the unit, not the model. As for hit rolls you are using Space Marines hitting on 3's, auto hit isn't the upgrade it is for armies with lower BS, and ignoring cover isn't better than free wounds. Volkite Chargers are also Assault weapons with 2 shots. They are objectively better than Flamers for everyone but Deathguard as they get chem munitions.

Granted Volkites are better vs. MEQs. However I am not convinced they are better vs. GEQs who hug cover inside terrain. And hitting on 3s isn´t better than an Autohit from flamers.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Granted Volkites are better vs. MEQs. However I am not convinced they are better vs. GEQs who hug cover inside terrain. And hitting on 3s isn´t better than an Autohit from flamers.

From personal experience, I can tell you that Volkite weapons are still superior to Flamers against non-Power Armoured models. Enemy units won't be in cover all the time and the bonus wounds are better than ignoring cover. They are higher strength, longer range, and do extra wounds on failed saves. I've been playing HH for a long time, trust me the Volkites are the better choice.
I mean they're Your Dudes, it's your choice but I'm not trying to swindle you or give you bad info.

This depends on what kind of terrain you have at hand. Judging from a lot of batreps from the 30K Chaneel on yT there is a dislike to use large area terrain sections which grant cover saves. And multi-level terrain pieces are very, very rare. It often boils down to have a few solid LOS-blocking structures littering the board mirroring the terrain pieces which GW sells.

I on the other hand built my terrain twenty years ago when I assembled my Catachans. Almost my whole table is usually covered in tropical jungle area terrain. And I can also add a few overgrown, multi-level ruins to the lot. You can still leave a few routes for vehicles although more than half of the table is covered. So I think flamers could still do very well. It´s honestly not a choice of choosing flamers over volkites as there will be enough models available to build both squads.

If it wasn't a choice between Flamers or Volkites why did you ask for advice in the first place?

Your other problem is going to come from units with the heavy sub type- We don't know yet how many of those there will be on GEQ or similar profiles, but these units will get to reroll saves against your flamers. The drop in versatility here is going to be big since you're opponent will likely know where you're reserves with flamers are going to pop in. Cata terminators, phalanx warders, breachers etc are going to casually walk through your lukewarm super soakers and then beat your special weapons squad to death.

I agree with Gert here, the flamers may have some more efficiency against an exact target, but the versatility of volkite is going to significantly outweigh that.

 Gert wrote:
If it wasn't a choice between Flamers or Volkites why did you ask for advice in the first place?

I watched batreps on yT avoiding flamers and wanted to have a discussion here about it. That´s all.

How do Alchem flamers in Death Guard change the calculus?

In 2.0 they get Fleshbane (and Gets Hot). That seems pretty nice. Better than the S5 Volkite has against most things you want to be shooting with these guys.

 Gert wrote:
1 - Compared to other options, flamers are generally the worst. You can swap them out for free for Volkite Chargers which are better.
2 - Yes Sergeants have to take the same weapon.

Just as an aside, the seargent can still take a melee weapon such as a powerfist or chainsword or power sword.

In 1st Ed Flamers were a much bigger treat in zone mortalis games. Had a salamander player that loved a 10 man squad of them. When your unit is forced to bunch up the number of hits from flamer templates really adds up fast.

So are five man squads used much? Or do people usually take ten or so?

cpugeek13 wrote:
So are five man squads used much? Or do people usually take ten or so?

Depends on the points cost of said unit and the unit they want to destroy. All in the spirit of making it´s points back of course. For example someone fields five dudes in a drop pod with the intention of blowing up a tank with meltaguns later on. Having five meltaguns is strong although calculating probabilities you may end up only stripping a few hull points. However fielding ten dudes will turn most battle tanks without an invulnerable save surely to the junkyard but a counterattack by the opponent might net also a large amount of points as these maxed out units don´t come cheap. Quality of terrain obviously plays a role too in that scenario as clever positioning could limit the amount of reprisal attacks.

Were specialist sgt. allowed to take auspexes in HH 1.0?

Support and Heavy Support sergeants could take them. Or Apothecaries could have them.