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Units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role are terrain features, and each terrain feature can have one or more terrain traits. Do fortifications get terrain traits ?

TERRAIN TRAITS
Each terrain feature can have one or more terrain traits, each of which bestows additional rules. Once the battlefield has been created, both players must agree which terrain traits apply to which terrain features.

FORTIFICATIONS
Units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role are terrain features that are part of your army.

Yes and No.

It depends on the fortification.

First look at the Building terrain category:

Buildings
Buildings are typically units with the Fortification Battlefield Role and the BUILDING keyword, and that are part of a player’s army. A model on or behind a Building uses the normal rules for determining if another model is visible to it, or if it is visible to another model. Each Building has a datasheet, and unless otherwise noted is either a friendly unit or an enemy unit (meaning that models cannot be moved across them, but they can be chosen as the target of an attack).

* Buildings are considered to be units, rather than terrain features.
* Models cannot move across Buildings.
* Models use normal rules to determine if model behind a Building is visible.
* Enemy Buildings can be attacked.

That means that if they have the BUILDING keyword they do not get terrain traits.

Lets look at tow different fortifications; the Hammerfall Bunker and the Battle Sanctum

The Hammerfall bunker has the building keyword so it follows the above and does not get traits.

The Battle Sanctum has the Terrain and Area Terrain keywords and the following ability:

Terrain Feature: After this model is set up, it is treated as an Area terrain feature with the following terrain traits:
• Breachable
• Defensible
• Light Cover
• Obscuring
• Scalable
• Inspiring (ADEPTUS MINISTORUM)

This Fort does gain the above traits

I see. So BUILDING is a unit, not a terrain feature. What about the Nachmund GT rule that units with the fortification battlefield role must be set up more than 3" away from any other terrain feature, and if thats not possible i can remove the terrain feature ? Does this more than 3" away rule apply to BUILDING, or not ? If its a unit, its not a terrain feature, and therefore can be set up within 3" of any other terrain feature ?

A sporocyst is a unit with the fortification battlefield role, its a terrain feature, and its not a BUILDING. Does this mean that it can get terrain traits ?

No. They are a Fortification still, not Area Terrain or an Obstacle. They don’t get terrain traits.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No. They are a Fortification still, not Area Terrain or an Obstacle. They don’t get terrain traits.

100% this. Fortifications do not get terrain traits.

I am not so sure about this but this is my reading,

the rule for Forts is
Unless otherwise stated, when setting up a model from a unit with the Fortifications battlefield role on the battlefield, it cannot be set up within 3" of any other terrain feature that is not part of its own datasheet (excluding hills). If it is not possible to set up a Fortification, a player can, in a War Zone Nachmund: Grand Tournament mission, remove one Obstacles or Area Terrain feature that is within their deployment zone from the battlefield in order to make room for their Fortification.

A Building can not be set up within 3" of a terrain feature as a BUILDING still has the Fortifications battlefield role but you can remove a Obstacle or Area Terrain to make room.

It also says that buildings are considered to be units, rather than terrain features.
By RAW I think you could set up two Buildings within 3" of each other as neither are considered terrain features.

For sporocysts I am going to say no as when Fortifications are to be treated as an terrain feature and have terrain traits it will say so in the units Abilities section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No. They are a Fortification still, not Area Terrain or an Obstacle. They don’t get terrain traits.

100% this. Fortifications do not get terrain traits.

If the units abilities says it does it will. The Mekboy Workshop says it gets the Defence Line, Light Cover, Heavy Cover, Defensible, Unstable Position, Difficult Ground traits.

 KingGarland wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No. They are a Fortification still, not Area Terrain or an Obstacle. They don’t get terrain traits.

100% this. Fortifications do not get terrain traits.

If the units abilities says it does it will. The Mekboy Workshop says it gets the Defence Line, Light Cover, Heavy Cover, Defensible, Unstable Position, Difficult Ground traits.

Only because it explicitly says that on its dataslate...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No. They are a Fortification still, not Area Terrain or an Obstacle. They don’t get terrain traits.

100% this. Fortifications do not get terrain traits.

If the units abilities says it does it will. The Mekboy Workshop says it gets the Defence Line, Light Cover, Heavy Cover, Defensible, Unstable Position, Difficult Ground traits.

Only because it explicitly says that on its dataslate...

Yes...

 KingGarland wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No. They are a Fortification still, not Area Terrain or an Obstacle. They don’t get terrain traits.

100% this. Fortifications do not get terrain traits.

If the units abilities says it does it will. The Mekboy Workshop says it gets the Defence Line, Light Cover, Heavy Cover, Defensible, Unstable Position, Difficult Ground traits.

Only because it explicitly says that on its dataslate...

Yes...

Generally speaking, aka normally, Fortifications do not get terrain traits. This is the default.

Were does it say that the default is that Fortifications do not get terrain traits?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No. They are a Fortification still, not Area Terrain or an Obstacle. They don’t get terrain traits.

100% this. Fortifications do not get terrain traits.

Exactly. It was a specific response re: the Sporocyte.

Everyone quote-responding with whatabouts could do with reading the context. Obviously if a different unit says it gets traits, it gets traits. Because it tells you. In absence of traits the Tyranid unit gets none. Funny, change the situation and the answer changes, who knew…


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KingGarland wrote:
Were does it say that the default is that Fortifications do not get terrain traits?

The absence of a rule saying they do is your proof.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Generally speaking, aka the normal rule says, Fortifications do not get terrain traits. This is the default.

Citation please. I quoted the rules that say that terrain features can get terrain traits. A sporocyst is a terrain feature, therefore it can get terrain traits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

The absence of a rule saying they do is your proof.

What absence of a rule ?? I quoted the rules that say that terrain features can get terrain traits. Fortifications are terrain features. I also quoted that rule.

So which terrain traits does a Sporocyte get?

I’ll wait.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
So which terrain traits does a Sporocyte get?

I’ll wait.

Normally, whatever both players agree upon. Thats the rule for terrain traits, which i also quoted. If a unit with the fortification battlefield role can get terrain traits.

REMOVED

He did not make it up.

You seem to have a basic misunderstanding of how the rules system works.

If someone says "The rules don't say I can't!" Their argument is automatically incorrect.

The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.

There would have to be a rule allowing fortifications to have terrain traits. If there is such a rule, someone would need to cite that rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:

There would have to be a rule allowing fortifications to have terrain traits. If there is such a rule, someone would need to cite that rule.

The first post in this forum thread has both of them.

If you want the exact page;

CORE BOOK
Indomitus Version 1.4 FAQ Page 3:

Fortifications
Units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role are terrain features
that are part of your army. Unless otherwise stated, when
setting Fortifications up on the battlefield, they cannot be set up
within 3" of any other terrain feature that is not part of its own
datasheet (excluding hills, page 260). If it is not possible to set up
a Fortification as a result, it cannot be deployed and counts as
having been destroyed. Fortifications can never be placed into
Strategic Reserves (pg 256).

* Fortifications cannot be setup within 3" of other terrain features
(except hills).
* Fortifications cannot be placed into Strategic Reserves.

That means that all Fortifications are terrain features.

From the BRB page 262;

Each terrain feature can have one or more terrain traits, each of which bestows additional rules. Once the battlefield has been created, both players must agree which terrain traits apply to which terrain features.

The way it goes is:

Fortifications are terrain features > terrain feature can have one or more terrain traits > Fortifications can have one or more terrain traits

Now the sporocyst can not as before you give terrain features you must assign a terrain category; Hills, Obstacles, Area Terrain, and Buildings.

The first three would not work as the sporocyst is a unit with a profile; it can make attacks and has a toughness value. The first three categories can not be attacked as they are part of the battlefield and not units so they would not work with the sporocyst. The only one that would work is the Building category which are not considered terrain features.

 KingGarland wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:
Were does it say that the default is that Fortifications do not get terrain traits?

The absence of a rule saying they do is your proof.

Aka

You’re kidding me. There’s no rule saying a unit gets any traits, yet I’m somehow talking gak?

Jeez does anyone argue in good faith with any common sense around here any more? FFS it’s ridiculous.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:
Were does it say that the default is that Fortifications do not get terrain traits?

The absence of a rule saying they do is your proof.

Aka

You’re kidding me. There’s no rule saying a unit gets any traits, yet I’m somehow talking gak?

Jeez does anyone argue in good faith with any common sense around here any more? FFS it’s ridiculous.

Please look at the post above this one were I point out the exact pages were a fort gets traits.

Johnny and DR, please back up your statements with rule citations, according to rule 1 of the tenets of YMDC. Just saying no doesnt work because i say so doesnt work in a rules discussion.

 p5freak wrote:
Johnny and DR, please back up your statements with rule citations, according to rule 1 of the tenets of YMDC. Just saying no doesnt work because i say so doesnt work in a rules discussion.

I have, there is not any rules allowing fortifications to have terrain traits.

@KingGarland

The rule says "Units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role are terrain features that are part of your army."

Page 262 uses the language "terrain feature" yet it doesn't say anything about "terrain features that are part of your army."

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Johnny and DR, please back up your statements with rule citations, according to rule 1 of the tenets of YMDC. Just saying no doesnt work because i say so doesnt work in a rules discussion.

I have, there is not any rules allowing fortifications to have terrain traits.

@KingGarland

The rule says "Units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role are terrain features that are part of your army."

Page 262 uses the language "terrain feature" yet it doesn't say anything about "terrain features that are part of your army."

I do not know how to respond to this.

At best I can point out that page 262 says "each terrain feature" meaning all terrain features regardless of wether or not it is a part of your army.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:
Were does it say that the default is that Fortifications do not get terrain traits?

The absence of a rule saying they do is your proof.

Aka

You’re kidding me. There’s no rule saying a unit gets any traits, yet I’m somehow talking gak?

Jeez does anyone argue in good faith with any common sense around here any more? FFS it’s ridiculous.

It's a p5 thread, best to just ignore it for the sake of your own blood pressure.

 KingGarland wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Johnny and DR, please back up your statements with rule citations, according to rule 1 of the tenets of YMDC. Just saying no doesnt work because i say so doesnt work in a rules discussion.

I have, there is not any rules allowing fortifications to have terrain traits.

@KingGarland

The rule says "Units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role are terrain features that are part of your army."

Page 262 uses the language "terrain feature" yet it doesn't say anything about "terrain features that are part of your army."

I do not know how to respond to this.

At best I can point out that page 262 says "each terrain feature" meaning all terrain features regardless of wether or not it is a part of your army.

And what exactly is a "terrain feature"

P. 260 has that rule. "Before the battle begins, you and your opponent will need to create the battlefield by setting up several terrain features from your collection."

So when they talk about terrain features on P. 262, They are talking about something that is set up "Before the battle begins". Because of the rules on P 260 that tell us what "terrain feature" they are talking about. This would exclude Fortifications.

Also BRB page 262 says "Once the battlefield has been created, both players must agree which terrain traits apply to which terrain features." So any fortifications are not even deployed yet and can't have any traits.

Are there any building fortifications that would qualify for any of the terrain traits from the main rulebook except for dense terrain? From memory, most of the benefits of terrain require that you be standing on them, and you can't stand on buildings. And most non-building fortifications explicitly list what terrain traits they get.

So what fortifications meet the following criteria?
* Purchasable as a fortification in your army with points.
* Doesn't have a statline that would compel you to treat it as a building.
* Doesn't explicitly list what terrain traits apply to it.

I guess if I added some cool mist and shimmer effects to my webway gate, I might be able to make a case for it being dense thus giving a to-hit penalty to my opponent when they try to shoot through it?

 DeathReaper wrote:
And what exactly is a "terrain feature"

A 'Terrain Feature' is defined on pages 198-199 of the Core Rules under the heading 'Terrain Features'.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Johnny and DR, please back up your statements with rule citations, according to rule 1 of the tenets of YMDC. Just saying no doesnt work because i say so doesnt work in a rules discussion.

I have, there is not any rules allowing fortifications to have terrain traits.

@KingGarland

The rule says "Units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role are terrain features that are part of your army."

Page 262 uses the language "terrain feature" yet it doesn't say anything about "terrain features that are part of your army."

I do not know how to respond to this.

At best I can point out that page 262 says "each terrain feature" meaning all terrain features regardless of wether or not it is a part of your army.

And what exactly is a "terrain feature"

P. 260 has that rule. "Before the battle begins, you and your opponent will need to create the battlefield by setting up several terrain features from your collection."

So when they talk about terrain features on P. 262, They are talking about something that is set up "Before the battle begins". Because of the rules on P 260 that tell us what "terrain feature" they are talking about. This would exclude Fortifications.

Also BRB page 262 says "Once the battlefield has been created, both players must agree which terrain traits apply to which terrain features." So any fortifications are not even deployed yet and can't have any traits.

As stated on page 198 of BRB:

The scenery on a battlefield can be represented by models from the Warhammer 40,000 range. These models are called terrain features to differentiate them from the models that make up an army. Terrain features are set up on the battlefield before the battle begins.

You are correct that by definition the Terrain features are set up and trait agreed upon before deployment.

But as stated on page three of the FAQ:

Units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role are terrain features

It does don't matter if they are part of the army or not they are terrain features. They are the exception it the rule that terrain features are set up before deployment.

To avoid this problem they are either given the BUILDING keyword making them units instead of terrain features or they are explicitly said what kind of terrain they are and what terrain traits they gain. If a Fortification does not have either of those then when it is set up and it is a terrain feature it has to be given a category and unless it is a building terrain traits as well.

Nothing in the rules says that terrain features must be given a category. A unit with the fortification battlefield role is a terrain feature (unless its a BUILDING) which has no category. However, its still a terrain feature, and therefore can be given terrain traits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Are there any building fortifications that would qualify for any of the terrain traits from the main rulebook except for dense terrain? From memory, most of the benefits of terrain require that you be standing on them, and you can't stand on buildings. And most non-building fortifications explicitly list what terrain traits they get.

So what fortifications meet the following criteria?
* Purchasable as a fortification in your army with points.
* Doesn't have a statline that would compel you to treat it as a building.
* Doesn't explicitly list what terrain traits apply to it.

I guess if I added some cool mist and shimmer effects to my webway gate, I might be able to make a case for it being dense thus giving a to-hit penalty to my opponent when they try to shoot through it?

Obscuring and dense cover sounds ok to me for a webway gate.

 p5freak wrote:
Nothing in the rules says that terrain features must be given a category. A unit with the fortification battlefield role is a terrain feature (unless its a BUILDING) which has no category. However, its still a terrain feature, and therefore can be given terrain traits.

Yes it does.

Page 260 of BRB:

* Each terrain feature belongs to one the following categories: Hills, Obstacles, Area Terrain or Buildings.

 KingGarland wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Nothing in the rules says that terrain features must be given a category. A unit with the fortification battlefield role is a terrain feature (unless its a BUILDING) which has no category. However, its still a terrain feature, and therefore can be given terrain traits.

Yes it does.

Page 260 of BRB:

* Each terrain feature belongs to one the following categories: Hills, Obstacles, Area Terrain or Buildings.

Which isnt the same as each terrain feature must be given one of the four categories. When the core rules were written there was no sporocyst. GW has decided to not give a sporocyst a category, for whatever reason.