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 Ghaz wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And what exactly is a "terrain feature"

A 'Terrain Feature' is defined on pages 198-199 of the Core Rules under the heading 'Terrain Features'.

Yes, if you read the rest of my post, you would have seen that I give quotes for what a "terrain feature" is.

And the bottom line is, when they talk about terrain features on P. 262, They are talking about something that is set up "Before the battle begins". Because of the rules on P 260 that tell us what "terrain feature" they are talking about. This would exclude Fortifications.

Therefore Fortifications can not have terrain traits as default.

Please read the FAQ noted in this post as to why you are wrong.

 Ghaz wrote:
Please read the FAQ noted in this post as to why you are wrong.

I did read the FAQ, and my statements are true, not false.

There is a difference between "terrain features that are part of your army" and "terrain features" as described in the BRB.

Or here is an idea: GW screwed up their own rules again.

The originally wrote and intended that all units in a Fortification Network are terrain features. They would either be Buildings and follow those rules or have their terrain feature rules included on their datasheet.

Then they made the bone-headed move of placing the immobile Monster know as the Sporocyst into the Fortification role because it didn't really fit anywhere else, but forgot to add rules to the datasheet to note that it really isn't a terrain feature but is actually an unit. Or maybe they just forgot to put Building in the list of Keywords? That would fix the problems really quickly,

 DeathReaper wrote:


There is a difference between "terrain features that are part of your army" and "terrain features" as described in the BRB.

I agree with you. There is a difference. But fortifications are still terrain features, because the FAQs say so. And terrain features can get terrain traits, because the rules say so. Nothing excludes fortifications from getting terrain traits.

Fortifications are terrain features, but they are not the terrain features the rules talk about on P. 260, the rules on P. 260 are talking about something that is set up "Before the battle begins". This would exclude Fortifications from having traits.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Fortifications are terrain features, but they are not the terrain features the rules talk about on P. 260, the rules on P. 260 are talking about something that is set up "Before the battle begins". This would exclude Fortifications from having traits.

Not true. When the core rules were written there were no special fortifications like the sporocyst. In the absence of special rules for the sporocyst we must use the rules we have, and give the sporocyst terrain traits, because thats what the rules what we have tell us to do.

Fine. We have to agree what traits to give it then, if we follow your torturous take. Let’s play along. I want it to have no traits. You do. As we can’t agree it gets none and we arrive back in Sensibleland, albeit with a massive detour to Daftsville.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Fortifications are terrain features, but they are not the terrain features the rules talk about on P. 260, the rules on P. 260 are talking about something that is set up "Before the battle begins". This would exclude Fortifications from having traits.

Not true. When the core rules were written there were no special fortifications like the sporocyst. In the absence of special rules for the sporocyst we must use the rules we have, and give the sporocyst terrain traits, because thats what the rules what we have tell us to do.

It is true though, because I have shown rules that back up everything I have said.

it does not matter if there were no special fortifications like the sporocyst when the core rules were written. They did not change the rules via FAQ/Errata when the sporocyst was released, and as such the rules are still the same.

Bottom line is, no traits for fortifications.

 DeathReaper wrote:

It is true though, because I have shown rules that back up everything I have said.

You havent shown anything that backs up what you said.

P5 x dr did, actually
The rules for fortifications getting traits only applies to those not part of your army. Context definitely matters.

Even if the sporocyst could get traits - which it can't - you have to agree with your opponent. Meaning hiuserule. Which you can do anyway.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

It is true though, because I have shown rules that back up everything I have said.

You havent shown anything that backs up what you said.

If you think that, then you have not read my posts. I gave quotes and everything.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
P5 x dr did, actually
The rules for fortifications getting traits only applies to those not part of your army. Context definitely matters.

What are you talking about ? There is no such thing as a fortification which is not part of your army.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

It is true though, because I have shown rules that back up everything I have said.

You havent shown anything that backs up what you said.

If you think that, then you have not read my posts. I gave quotes and everything.

I didnt see any quotes which backs up your point.

 p5freak wrote:
I didnt see any quotes which backs up your point.

Then you did not read my posts. Let me explain.

No, there is too much. Let me sum up.

Fortifications are terrain features, but they are not the terrain features the rules talk about on P. 260, the rules on P. 260 are talking about something that is set up "Before the battle begins". This would exclude Fortifications from having traits.

The Fortifications rule says "Units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role are terrain features that are part of your army."

Page 262 uses the language "terrain feature" yet it doesn't say anything about "terrain features that are part of your army." these are different things.

We know what is a "terrain feature" because P. 260 has that rule. "Before the battle begins, you and your opponent will need to create the battlefield by setting up several terrain features from your collection."

So when they talk about terrain features, They are talking about something that is set up "Before the battle begins". Because of the rules on P 260 that tell us what "terrain feature" they are talking about. This would exclude Fortifications.

Also BRB page 262 says "Once the battlefield has been created, both players must agree which terrain traits apply to which terrain features." So any fortifications are not even deployed yet and can't have any traits.

There are the rules that prove that fortifications can't have any traits.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fortifications are terrain features, but they are not the terrain features the rules talk about on P. 260, the rules on P. 260 are talking about something that is set up "Before the battle begins". This would exclude Fortifications from having traits.

The Fortifications rule says "Units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role are terrain features that are part of your army."

Page 262 uses the language "terrain feature" yet it doesn't say anything about "terrain features that are part of your army." these are different things.

And what kind of terrain features are they ? There are no other terrain features. There are only those on pg. 260. In the absence of special rules for those other terrain features you are taking about (which dont exist btw) we must use the rules we have for terrain features on pg. 260 for fortifications, because they are terrain features.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Also BRB page 262 says "Once the battlefield has been created, both players must agree which terrain traits apply to which terrain features." So any fortifications are not even deployed yet and can't have any traits.

No. Just because a fortification hasnt been set up like other terrain features in step 6 create the battlefield doesnt mean that it cant have terrain traits. The rules on pg.262 say once the battlefield has been created, both players must agree which terrain traits apply to which terrain features. It doesnt say anything that the terrain feature has to be set up to get terrain traits. Once the battlefield has been created you can assign terrain traits to the fortification, which is then set up later.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fortifications are terrain features, but they are not the terrain features the rules talk about on P. 260, the rules on P. 260 are talking about something that is set up "Before the battle begins". This would exclude Fortifications from having traits.

The Fortifications rule says "Units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role are terrain features that are part of your army."

Page 262 uses the language "terrain feature" yet it doesn't say anything about "terrain features that are part of your army." these are different things.

And what kind of terrain features are they ? There are no other terrain features. There are only those on pg. 260. In the absence of special rules for those other terrain features you are taking about (which dont exist btw) we must use the rules we have for terrain features on pg. 260 for fortifications, because they are terrain features.

So you say there is a difference, but now say there is only 1 type, aka no difference?

Why did you ask the question if you were going to ignore quotes about the rules?

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


There is a difference between "terrain features that are part of your army" and "terrain features" as described in the BRB.

I agree with you. There is a difference. But fortifications are still terrain features, because the FAQs say so. And terrain features can get terrain traits, because the rules say so. Nothing excludes fortifications from getting terrain traits.

 DeathReaper wrote:
So you say there is a difference, but now say there is only 1 type, aka no difference?

Why did you ask the question if you were going to ignore quotes about the rules?

What are you taking about ? You are the one saying that there are different terrain features, not me. You still need to provide a rules quote for those other terrain features you are talking about, because those arent the ones on pg. 260.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


There is a difference between "terrain features that are part of your army" and "terrain features" as described in the BRB.

I agree with you. There is a difference. But fortifications are still terrain features, because the FAQs say so. And terrain features can get terrain traits, because the rules say so. Nothing excludes fortifications from getting terrain traits.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So you say there is a difference, but now say there is only 1 type, aka no difference?

Why did you ask the question if you were going to ignore quotes about the rules?

What are you taking about ? You are the one saying that there are different terrain features, not me.

I actually said "There is a difference between "terrain features that are part of your army" and "terrain features" as described in the BRB."
You said:

 p5freak wrote:
I agree with you. There is a difference.

 p5freak wrote:
You still need to provide a rules quote for those other terrain features you are talking about, because those arent the ones on pg. 260.

I have, the Fortification rules clearly state that Fortifications are terrain features.

The rules on P. 260 are clearly not talking about Fortifications. They are clearly talking about a "terrain feature" being something that is set up "Before the battle begins" here is the relevant quote that shows that fortifications are what they are talking about on P 260/262...

"Before the battle begins, you and your opponent will need to create the battlefield by setting up several terrain features from your collection."

Fortifications are not something that is set up "Before the battle begins"

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So you say there is a difference, but now say there is only 1 type, aka no difference?

Why did you ask the question if you were going to ignore quotes about the rules?

What are you taking about ? You are the one saying that there are different terrain features, not me.

I actually said "There is a difference between "terrain features that are part of your army" and "terrain features" as described in the BRB."
You said:

 p5freak wrote:
I agree with you. There is a difference.

Yes. And i explained the difference. There are terrain features that are set up at step 6, and there are terrain features that are set up at step 11.

 DeathReaper wrote:

The rules on P. 260 are clearly not talking about Fortifications. They are clearly talking about a "terrain feature" being something that is set up "Before the battle begins" here is the relevant quote that shows that fortifications are what they are talking about on P 260/262...

"Before the battle begins, you and your opponent will need to create the battlefield by setting up several terrain features from your collection."

The rules on p. 260 are about terrain features. Fortifications are terrain features. I have quoted the relevant FAQ.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fortifications are not something that is set up "Before the battle begins"

I agree. Nonetheless, fortifications are terrain features. And use the rules on pg. 260/262, because those are the rules for terrain features.

 p5freak wrote:
I agree. Nonetheless, fortifications are terrain features. And use the rules on pg. 260/262, because those are the rules for terrain features.

This is false, because the rules on p 260/262 are not referencing Fortifications.

Why did you ask the question if you did not want answers?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I agree. Nonetheless, fortifications are terrain features. And use the rules on pg. 260/262, because those are the rules for terrain features.

This is false, because the rules on p 260/262 are not referencing Fortifications.

Why did you ask the question if you did not want answers?

Because P5 wants to make an example of everything they can instead of understanding what is clearly understanable and enjoy the game.

TLDR, assigning terrain traits come before you are allowed to deploy your units, and there are no explicit permission to assign traits to units during deployment. Also, terrain traits are not something you can 'assign' to your units as though you are assigning wargear/warlord trait/etc unless otherwise noted in the datasheet (due to lack of explicit permission)

There's a section that specifies when you assign terrain traits to each piece of 'scenery' which is explicitly when you 'create the battlefield' which is also explicitly before you deploy your units. Note that terrains are placed per rules, after the 'place the objective marker' step of setting up the battlefield as there are specific restrictions on how you can place the terrain depending on how the objective markers have been set up.

Fortification is explicitly a specific type of 'unit' in your army that is deployed, and not set up during 'create the battlefield' step. Note that deploying army phase comes way later in the pre-game set up sequence. In order to assign terrain traits, we need to scroll way back up in the sequence of the set up, which is markedly incorrect way of setting up the battlefield.

Thus, the argument 'according to these two excerpts that has been stitched together, whether or not fortifications can be assigned terrain traits rely solely on the agreement of both players' is false because the rules do not permit you to assign terrain traits to anything when you are setting up your units during deployment.

To cite specifics, we'll take a look at the 2021 GT pack:

-terrains are placed per 'step 6. create the battlefield'. We are told to follow the rules for battlefield terrain feature at this time (unless otherwise noted)
-We refer to the core rules for the terrain features, and assign terrain categories and terrain traits to each piece of scenery set up on the battlefield
-units are placed per 'step 11. deploy armies'. There are no further instructions/allowance on assigning terrain features to your units.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I agree. Nonetheless, fortifications are terrain features. And use the rules on pg. 260/262, because those are the rules for terrain features.

This is false, because the rules on p 260/262 are not referencing Fortifications.

Are you really telling me that a battle sanctum has nothing to with the rules on pg. 260/262 ? Why does it have a rule which mentions terrain traits ? Are you really telling me that breachable, defensible, light cover, obscuring, scalable and inspring has nothing to do with pg. 262 ? If so, where do i find what those terrain traits mean ?

Terrain Feature: After this model is set up, it is treated as an Area terrain feature with the following terrain traits:
• Breachable
• Defensible
• Light Cover
• Obscuring
• Scalable
• Inspiring (ADEPTUS MINISTORUM)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

Thus, the argument 'according to these two excerpts that has been stitched together, whether or not fortifications can be assigned terrain traits rely solely on the agreement of both players' is false because the rules do not permit you to assign terrain traits to anything when you are setting up your units during deployment.

You are right. You cannot assign terrain traits during deployment. Those are assigned once the battlefield has been created. Once the battlefield has been created i assign terrain traits to a fortification, which is then set up during deployment.

Again, I drop by merely to say “good grief is this still going?” and point out that threads like this make this subforum utterly useless for anyone wanting to know how to play the game. Sigh. Just let it die. P5freak is being contrarian for kicks, clearly.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I agree. Nonetheless, fortifications are terrain features. And use the rules on pg. 260/262, because those are the rules for terrain features.

This is false, because the rules on p 260/262 are not referencing Fortifications.

Are you really telling me that a battle sanctum has nothing to with the rules on pg. 260/262 ? Why does it have a rule which mentions terrain traits ? Are you really telling me that breachable, defensible, light cover, obscuring, scalable and inspring has nothing to do with pg. 262 ? If so, where do i find what those terrain traits mean ?

Terrain Feature: After this model is set up, it is treated as an Area terrain feature with the following terrain traits:
• Breachable
• Defensible
• Light Cover
• Obscuring
• Scalable
• Inspiring (ADEPTUS MINISTORUM)

Clearly you have not read the thread, this was sorted on P. 1

 p5freak wrote:
You are right. You cannot assign terrain traits during deployment. Those are assigned once the battlefield has been created. Once the battlefield has been created i assign terrain traits to a fortification, which is then set up during deployment.

Nope.

6. CREATE THE BATTLEFIELD
The players now create the battlefield and set up terrain features...Unless noted otherwise, when setting up terrain features, use the guidelines detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book. Terrain features cannot be set up on top of objective markers. Players must use the rules for battlefield terrain features.

TERRAIN FEATURES
This section provides rules for using a range of terrain features that can transform your gaming table into an interactive, thematic battlefield set in the 41st Millennium.
Before the battle begins, you and your opponent will need to create the battlefield by setting up several terrain features from your collection.

TERRAIN TRAITS
Each terrain feature can have one or more terrain traits, each of which bestows additional rules. Once the battlefield has been created, both players must agree which terrain traits apply to which terrain features.

Clearly, the feature of assigning terrain traits is limited to when you're creating the battlefield on the terrain pieces being set up as part of this step, and terrains pieces being set up during this phase ONLY. You don't get to assign traits to anything that can be rule stitched to be made eligible to receive terrain traits because they're not being set up on the battlefield during the 'create the battlefield' step of starting the game.

Sure, you can houserule for any games that are not using the 9th ed set up rules as long as both parties agree to do so, but your discovery isn't actually a "Wekll aKcHUWALly" at all.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Again, I drop by merely to say “good grief is this still going?” and point out that threads like this make this subforum utterly useless for anyone wanting to know how to play the game. Sigh. Just let it die. P5freak is being contrarian for kicks, clearly.

I am not being contrarian for kicks, the others are. Fortifications are terrain features, and terrain features can get terrain traits. The rules say both very clearly.

 skchsan wrote:
Clearly, the feature of assigning terrain traits is limited to when you're creating the battlefield on the terrain pieces being set up as part of this step, and terrains pieces being set up during this phase ONLY. You don't get to assign traits to anything that can be rule stitched to be made eligible to receive terrain traits because they're not being set up on the battlefield during the 'create the battlefield' step of starting the game.

No, thats not what the rules are saying. You are making that up.

There is no requirement that terrain features must have any traits. From the quote from the first page of this thread, "Each terrain feature can have one or more terrain traits, each of which bestows additional rules."

So in the case of a Sporocyst, it doesn't specify as having any terrain traits on the datasheet, so it doesn't have any.

They CAN get traits. The sporocyst, because of how it's created, cannot.

Done.

tldr
- Can infantry models stan on top of Noctilith Crown?
- Can they stand below?