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++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Raven Guard) [108 PL, 11CP, 1,988pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Carcharodons, Hungry for Battle, Raven Guard Successor, Whirlwind of Rage

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

+ HQ +

Captain in Phobos Armour [5 PL, -1CP, 95pts]: 6. Master Marksman, Master-Crafted Weapon, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

Primaris Chaplain [6 PL, 110pts]: 1. Litany of Faith (Aura), 3. Exhortation of Rage, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, Master of Ambush, Warlord

Tyberos the Red Wake [8 PL, 160pts]

+ Troops +

Assault Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 114pts]
. 5x Assault Intercessor: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol
. Assault Intercessor Sgt: Astartes Chainsword, Heavy Bolt Pistol

Assault Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 114pts]
. 5x Assault Intercessor: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol
. Assault Intercessor Sgt: Astartes Chainsword, Heavy Bolt Pistol

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle
. 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Intercessor Sergeant

+ Elites +

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 210pts]
. 5x Bladeguard Veteran: 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 5x Master-crafted power sword, 5x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy Bolt Pistol

Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, 115pts]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 195pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 195pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Relic Terminator Squad [18 PL, 370pts]
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator Sergeant: Chainfist, Plasma blaster
. Relic Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Chainfist, Reaper autocannon
. Relic Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Chainfist, Reaper autocannon

+ Heavy Support +

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 75pts]: Bolt sniper rifle
. Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle
. 2x Eliminators: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Camo cloak, 2x Frag & Krak grenades

Eradicator Squad [7 PL, 135pts]: Melta rifle
. 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol
. Eradicator Sgt

++ Total: [108 PL, 11CP, 1,988pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe
Feel free to rip this list apart, but it's my first real attempt at designing the Space Sharks Primaris styled chapter. The main idea is to have Tyberos and Terminators drop in and be a blob of distraction carnifex mixed with wreckage. Meanwhile Chaplain and Bladeguard use "Master of Ambush" to push the board and get in the other players face. Intercessors are there to help push and hold objectives, Regular intercessors are there to hold back line and fire. Eliminators/Captain in Phobos are to be a direct threat to characters and key targets while staying safe in the back. Dread's are there cuz i like the models and i need something that hits hard - same with Eradicators, but they're there to also be a big threat on the fronts and hit something really hard. The idea of the Apothecary was to be with the Bladeguard or Terminators, though not sure entirely on why i added him when he can't jump forward. Any tips on how to better improve this would be nice as i'm not entirely too sure on how RG play - i'm coming from a Custodes background so i very much understand the in-your-face style of play.

I think it looks pretty good. Just two things really.

1. Your list looks really, really slow. Space marines, especially primaris are slow already, but yours is particularly so. Everybody is walking on foot, and while you have a teleportation blob of terminators and a bit of forward deploy, I just think the lack of mobility is still a major concern, especially since you are so melee focused. Maybe just think about that a little.

2. I dont like the phobos captain. I see what you are trying to do here, but I just feel like the phobos captain is pretty much never worth it. If sniping characters is your jam, drop him and take a second squad of 3 eliminators. They're cheaper, and they do the job better.

Rahdok wrote:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Raven Guard) [108 PL, 11CP, 1,988pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Carcharodons, Hungry for Battle, Raven Guard Successor, Whirlwind of Rage

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

+ HQ +

Captain in Phobos Armour [5 PL, -1CP, 95pts]: 6. Master Marksman, Master-Crafted Weapon, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

Primaris Chaplain [6 PL, 110pts]: 1. Litany of Faith (Aura), 3. Exhortation of Rage, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, Master of Ambush, Warlord

Tyberos the Red Wake [8 PL, 160pts]

+ Troops +

Assault Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 114pts]
. 5x Assault Intercessor: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol
. Assault Intercessor Sgt: Astartes Chainsword, Heavy Bolt Pistol

Assault Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 114pts]
. 5x Assault Intercessor: 5x Astartes Chainsword, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol
. Assault Intercessor Sgt: Astartes Chainsword, Heavy Bolt Pistol

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle
. 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Intercessor Sergeant

+ Elites +

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 210pts]
. 5x Bladeguard Veteran: 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 5x Master-crafted power sword, 5x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy Bolt Pistol

Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, 115pts]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 195pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 195pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Relic Terminator Squad [18 PL, 370pts]
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator Sergeant: Chainfist, Plasma blaster
. Relic Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Chainfist, Reaper autocannon
. Relic Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Chainfist, Reaper autocannon

+ Heavy Support +

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 75pts]: Bolt sniper rifle
. Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle
. 2x Eliminators: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Camo cloak, 2x Frag & Krak grenades

Eradicator Squad [7 PL, 135pts]: Melta rifle
. 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol
. Eradicator Sgt

++ Total: [108 PL, 11CP, 1,988pts] ++

Feel free to rip this list apart, but it's my first real attempt at designing the Space Sharks Primaris styled chapter. The main idea is to have Tyberos and Terminators drop in and be a blob of distraction carnifex mixed with wreckage. Meanwhile Chaplain and Bladeguard use "Master of Ambush" to push the board and get in the other players face. Intercessors are there to help push and hold objectives, Regular intercessors are there to hold back line and fire. Eliminators/Captain in Phobos are to be a direct threat to characters and key targets while staying safe in the back. Dread's are there cuz i like the models and i need something that hits hard - same with Eradicators, but they're there to also be a big threat on the fronts and hit something really hard. The idea of the Apothecary was to be with the Bladeguard or Terminators, though not sure entirely on why i added him when he can't jump forward. Any tips on how to better improve this would be nice as i'm not entirely too sure on how RG play - i'm coming from a Custodes background so i very much understand the in-your-face style of play.

I think there's a few basic issues with your list that would keep it from being very effective on the table.

I'm gonna go in order starting from your Troops and we'll loop back to HQ at the end.

First:

Either commit to taking your assault intercessors in squads of 10, which gives you the option to combat squad them into two units of 5, or keep them as squads of 5. Squad size of 6 is you paying points to reduce the durability of your obsec troops. You are paying a premium just for your unit to now be under stricter coherency requirements as well as being affected by Blast weapons. Keep them in squads of 5, the extra 2 wounds and 3 attacks you get from the additional intercessor will not help you. Ideally, assault intercessors should not even be seeing combat if they're your sole obsec units. Personally, if I'm playing space sharks aggressively (and I always am) -- I tend to take Incursors rather than Assault Intercessors. If you give them their haywire mine, they cost 115 points, only a point more than what your intercessors are costing you. You can use their ability to forward deploy to position them on or near key objectives before the game even starts for free, and they have access to Smokescreen as well as See But Remain Unseen strats, both of which give you -1 to to be hit at range. This makes them much more durable than assault intercessors. Besides that, they have comparable melee output and arguably superior ranged output, and the haywire mine can discourage and/or punish enemy charges against them, especially if you use it in conjunction with "A Deadly Prize" which effectively lets you double the mortal wound output if they get charged. Alternatively, you can just not take the Haywire Mine to save some points. Biggest tip I can give you here is just remember: Assault Intercessors Are Not For Assaulting.

What are the Assault Intercessors for, then? They're for doing what your Intercessors are doing - sitting on objectives and looking pretty. Why use Assault Intercessorsh ere, rather than Intercessors? Because they're cheaper, and their job is to sit there and look pretty. If you're going to bring Intercessors regardless - dump the Stalker Bolt Rifle. The profile on those rifles isn't worth the restrictions of Heavy 1. Whatever benefit you're getting from increased damage and AP is going to be a wash when you're at -1 to your BS because you had to shift a model. Just go for the regular old Bolt Rifle. Keep them cheap and simple and subject to least possible restrictions on their movement. Stalker Bolt Rifle is almost never worth it - maybe if you're playing Ultramarines you can make a case for them, but Space Sharks aren't interested in them generally.


Second:

Both Bladeguard and Relic Terminators are excellent options for forward deployment with Master of Ambush, and you have the right idea here. Right now, thanks to Armor of Contempt, the Terminators actually tend to be considerably more durable than Bladeguard (who do not get the benefits of Armor of Contempt). As a general rule: avoid the temptation to take a Heavy Weapon in any squad that gives you the option. In most cases this is a trap. You're spending points to reduce the efficiency of your unit. However, if you're going to bring them, consider the unit that has the heavy weapon squad a defensive, rather than an offensive unit. You want them holding an objective and refusing to move. I'd plop these guys in range of an objective, with as many models as you can manage in cover. Alternatively, you can combat squad them, and put both Reaper Autocannons in one 5 man squad, and they make pretty solid backfield objective holders while the unit without any Heavy weapons can be used offensively.

As for your Bladeguard -- unless you're planning on splitting them into 2 units of 3, it's generally not worth it to take them as a squad of 6, for the same reason as discussed with Assault Intercessors above - it tends to reduce both durability and positioning options. 5 Bladeguard will get the job done just fine, you really don't need the 6th guy. I'd dump him. Before Armor of Contempt, these guys were good both as an offensive unit and as a defensive castle. Since Armor of Contempt, they're much more useful as an assault unit. They have a slightly better synergy with Tyberos than the lightning claw terminators do - S6 takes you to wounding many factions on 2s, whereas S5 lightning claw attacks are rarely any better than S4 lightning claw attacks. I'd suggest keeping Tyberos and Bladeguard together and using Bladeguard as your hammer.

The Apothecary is fine, but if you're not giving him Selfless Healer warlord trait, it's not worth paying the points to make him a Chief Apothecary. He only has a 3" aura -- he's usually going to be marching around next to 1 unit (either bladeguard or terminators) and you probably do not need to use Combat Restoratives twice. Either give him Selfless Healer, or don't make him Chief Apothecary and save yourself the pionts.

The Redemptors are fine. Point and shoot at the biggest enemy until it dies or you're close enough to punch it to death. Straight forward. Remember that you can always spend a CP to give them the aura of a captain OR a lieutenant. Their base size is huge and this can be a huge boost if there's no characters around one of your flanks. Excellent candidates for Tyberos's Chapter Master reroll -- just make sure Tyberos is within 6" of them at the start of the Command Phase.

Heavy Support:

If you cut out the 2 intercessor models and the bladeguard model and demote your Apothecary from Chief down to regular, you'll have enough points for a 2nd Eliminator squad. Now, temper your expectations for Eliminators. They are just not a very effective unit - in the dozens of games I played with them in my army, they have successfully killed at most 3 characters. 3 shots is simply not reliable without character auras to support them, and even then they're unreliable. However, they are a very durable unit for the points, as long as you keep them in some sort of cover, and they can be a real nuisance. Use these guys as back up objective holders, or use their forward deploy to screen out your opponent's forward deploying units. Don't expect much from them combat wise, and think of them as a general utility and defensive unit which can shoot at characters occasionally as a nice bonus.

Eradicators: positioning is everything with these guys. They are excellent candidates for the pregame move Infiltrators strat if you know you're going first, since you can use it to get them into optimal range of whatever enemy unit is begging to be meltad. They're also not a bad choice necessarily for deep striking with or even deploying forward with Master of Ambush. Great choice for the Chapter Master reroll, and should be supported by characters in order to optimally do their job.

HQs:

The Captain in Phobos Armor is trash for your purposes. He's a very niche unit, and his primary role is support. He has trash combat profile and underwhelming shooting profile. Master Marskman and Mastercrafted Weapon are waste of warlord trait and relic on him and will basically not help you in any way. He's okay if you really want to milk your eliminators to their maximum potential -- generally a fool's errand. He's okay if you're using lots of other phobos units that he can deploy up the board with and give support to. In your case, he's just out of place though. Swap him out for a regular Primaris Captain -- the Indomitus one with the Relic Shield is a much better choice - give him Swift and Deadly and your Bladeguard/Tyberos (Terminators too, generally -- but since you opted for lots of combi bolters and heavy weapons with yours, not so much in your case) will get a massive increase in speed and you'll be able to use them much more aggressively as they'll be able to Advance and Charge in the same turn. Since you already have Tyberos, who already has the Captain reroll aura, maybe even go with the Primaris Lieutenant with Sword Shield and Volkite Pistol, still with Swift & Deadly. If you don't have one of those -- just use your 6th Bladeguard Veteran as one, they look identical.

Primaris Chaplain: if you're giong to giveh im Master of Sanctity, give him Wise Orator warlord trait. If you're not giving him Wise Orator, don't make him Master of Sanctity, and save yourself the points - you'll only be able to recite 1 litany if you don't take Wise Orator, so knowing the extra one is just not going to be useful. Just stick with Litany of Hate and Exhortation of Rage, you are probably not going to be using Litany of Faith.. He's a fine unit, but I'd say he's suboptimal for Master of Ambush - that trait might be better on the Apothecary than him, as it could ensure your terminator brick in the midfield stays on the board much longer. He's a good candidate for Swift & Deadly as well. Another fun thing you can do if you want to play him very aggressively is give him Mantra of Strength, the Relic Crozius that deals mortal wounds on 6s to wound, and the warlord trait Master of Vigilence which will let you do mortal wounds on 6s to HIT. Coupled with +1 strength from Tyberos, he'll have an obscene amount of S8 attacks, coupled with obscene mortal wound potential, and be an incredible beatstick -- though that combo is much better on the Chaplain on Bike. But everything is better on the Chaplain on Bike in general.

Tyberos - DO NOT DEEP STRIKE HIM. Deepstriking Tyberos is a sure way to be disappointed. Even with Hungry for Battle you are just far too likely to fail your charge out of deep strike. Furthermore, he's out of commission for an entire turn. That matters a lot since he's not only an incredible melee character, he's also a VERY good buffing character, not just from his +1S aura, or his captain reroll, but from his ability to give one unit full rerolls to hit for a turn. But he can only do this to units within 6" of him IN YOUR COMMAND PHASE. If you deep strike him, that's 2 turns you're not able to use an extremely powerful buff, AND you're taking a huge risk with charging out of deep strike. Your best way to use him is to start him on the table, next to a brick unit he's going to be running with for the rest of the game, within 6" of another character who has Swit and Deadly (Tyberos has no ranged weapons - if he can advance and charge, he should advance every turn to get into combat as quickly as possible), and within 6" of either your Eradicators or your Dreadnought, who are the best candidates for his buff generally.

So, putting it all together....

If you get rid of the useless traits on your Apothecary and Chaplain, cut 2 assault intercessors, cut a bladeguard veteran and swap your Phobos Captain for the bladeguard lieutenant, your list has become more effective, and you now have 125 extra points to play around with. You can give your army some more heavy firepower with 2 multi-melta attack bikes, you can add another troop unit to ensure you hold objectives better, or you can add a Flamestorm Aggressor Squad (who are an excellent choice to deep strike with the RG strat for that).

If I wanted to make a similar list with mostly the same units that is effective at playing an aggressive objective and melee game, here's how I would do it:

+++ New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [101 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] +++

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Raven Guard) [101 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Carcharodons, Hungry for Battle, Raven Guard Successor, Whirlwind of Rage

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

+ Stratagems +

Stratagem: Relic of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics

+ HQ +

Primaris Chaplain [6 PL, 110pts]: 4. Mantra of Strength, Benediction of Fury, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, Master of Vigilance, Warlord

Primaris Lieutenant [5 PL, -1CP, 90pts]: Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Swift and Deadly
Neo-volkite pistol, Master-crafted power sword and Storm Shield: Neo-volkite pistol

Tyberos the Red Wake [8 PL, 160pts]

+ Troops +

Assault Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 95pts]
4x Assault Intercessor: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol
Assault Intercessor Sgt: Astartes Chainsword, Heavy Bolt Pistol

Assault Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 95pts]
4x Assault Intercessor: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol
Assault Intercessor Sgt: Astartes Chainsword, Heavy Bolt Pistol

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 105pts]: Astartes Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle
4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
Intercessor Sergeant

+ Elites +

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 175pts]
4x Bladeguard Veteran: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Master-crafted power sword, 4x Storm Shield
Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy Bolt Pistol

Primaris Apothecary [4 PL, -1CP, 80pts]: Master of Ambush, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Vox Espiritum

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 195pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 195pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Relic Terminator Squad [18 PL, 370pts]
Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
Relic Terminator Sergeant: Chainfist, Plasma blaster
Relic Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Chainfist, Reaper autocannon
Relic Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Chainfist, Reaper autocannon

+ Fast Attack +

Attack Bike Squad [2 PL, 60pts]
Attack Bike: Multi-melta

Attack Bike Squad [2 PL, 60pts]
Attack Bike: Multi-melta

+ Heavy Support +

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 75pts]: Bolt sniper rifle
Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle
2x Eliminators: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Camo cloak, 2x Frag & Krak grenades

Eradicator Squad [7 PL, 135pts]: Melta rifle
2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol
Eradicator Sgt

If you don't have 2 attack bike squads -- take 'em out and find 125 points somewhere else. Could be another unit of troops - infiltrators are a good option for backfield objective holding, as they keep deep strike out at 12", and cost 120 points. Aforementioned flamestorm aggressors or bolter inceptors - the world's your oyster with those 125 extra points -- you could cut the Icarus Rocket Pods from your Redemptors to get yourself up to 135 free points, even, and get a whole second Eradicator Squad too -- a huge boost to your anti tank power compared to 2 crappy rocket pods. In any case, I think this set up will be more effective in your army playing the way you want it to than the list you built.

i hope i didn't come off rude with any of this, you did say to tear your list apart, just tryin to help a fellow shark player player be more sharky

Oh gak no this is exactly what I wanted was someone to analyze the gak out of thei and tell me what I’d bad/good. I’m heavily taking notes lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah my reason for some of these things is simply ignorance. I had thought blast was units of 10+ not 6+. As for the intercessors as a whole - idk space marines and the word “assault” was in the name. With your suggestion I’ll probably drop the melee ones as a whole and go with your idea of incursors w/mines. And I built my terminators the way I did because when I’ve built pure melee terminators and then I miss the charge so I figured if they could fall back on some guns to do something rather then nothing it wouldn’t be a bad idea , but as this game is based on extremes I might throw in a second claw or powerfists or something I’m not sure.

As for the Phobos and eliminators idk really on this one. With the new CP changes im predicting people having to rely on the characters in their books more and I figured against armies that really like to make powerful characters like Tyranids or Space Marines - taking out those characters was a good idea. I was also told by a longtime RG player that the Phobos w/ master crafted just deleted characters so I figured gak why not? I’ll probably drop him for some more Snipers like you said.

As for Tyberos yes now that Ive read him more? I agree I’ll probably foot slog him with a ‘Nought , Bladeguard and the Apothecary. Seems like a nice tanky death ball of fun.

Now for the Chaplain - it seemed like a good idea to throw one in the list. I have never played space marines before so I had no idea what I was doing with him at all.

Now the apothecary that was my intention to build him the way you suggested but I think in my ignorance of using BattleScribe just forgot to add it in.

Also the only models I have atm is the models from the space marines half of I think it was Indomitus (the pack that launched with 9th w/ the Necrons). So, I’ll buy and build w/e ends up being fully suggested. Also I like your bike idea I just figured Ravenguard didn’t like bikes as it seems their more focused around playing the objectives then doing the whole combat thing.

Blast starts affecting you at 6 models - it's maximized at 11 models. If someone's shooting at you with D3 blast guns and there's 6 models in that unit, they'll get 3 shots guaranteed -- but if there's 5 models, they might only get 1. It makes a big difference!

Terminators with bolters is fine - if you're planning to deep strike with terminators, it's better to do it with a unit that has combi-bolters. Pure melee terminators are better on the board if you have a way to push them forward -- and you do. You have a warlord trait for advancing and charges and you have a way to forward deploy them -- so pure melee terminators should be starting on the board - you can actually use them to alpha strike reliably if you so choose even. I'd just suggest keeping your units uniform. 5 dual lightning claw and 5 bolter+claw is fine, 10 bolter+claw is fine -- 10 dual lightning claw I wouldn't necessarily advise, but it's workable. It's the inclusion of Heavy weapon that mucks up your efficiency. Truth is, they just aren't good enough to justify their cost in either points or in how they affect the mobility of a unit.

I wouldn't count on deleting characters with ignores look out sir guns - you simply don't have the shots for it, and you're not ignoring invulnerable saves. Eliminators might hit on 2s, but you will be amazed how often they fail to wound, even with all relevant rerolls. It's true Raven Guard are very good at assassinating characters, but snipers are almost never the right way to do it. The effect of your snipers is purely psychological at the bottom of it. What you want to do is play the army to its strengths -- you have traits that make you more effective in melee and help you get into melee and your one unique characters doesn't have any ranged weapons at all. If you want to delete a character, charge them with Tyberos or a souped up Chaplain during Turn 2 or 3, and you will. If you want to tickle a character, shoot him with a relic sniper rifle -- expect anything more than that and you might as well expect to win the lottery. Just think of it this way: which is better, 7 (+ exploding 6s) Strength 7 attacks with wound rerolls and +1 to wound with AP -4 and 2 damage, or 3 strength 5 d2 attacks that might do a mortal wound 6 at AP -2 with +1 to wound? The numbers speak for themselves.

Chaplain is a good, versatile unit -- but you should do some research about what he does to use him effectively. He can be an excellent buffing unit, or he can be an excellent melee fighter, or he can be decent at both. But you should decide what role he's going to play when you're building the list. Ask yourself: do I want him to make other units stronger? If yes, you're taking Litany of Hate or Exhortation of Rage. Since you took Hungry for Battle, you shouldn't need Canticle of Hate as much - but if you can position the Chaplain well enough, Canticle of Hate + the Raven's Blade is the best way to ensure a deep strike charge (you'd get +2 to charge from Canticle, which doesn't stack with HFB, and you'd be able to reroll the charge roll from the Raven's Blade strat). But this is hard to pull off reliably. If you want the Chaplain to be *incredibly* killy, go with Benediction of Fury Relic, Master of Vigilance warlord trait, and Mantra of Strength litany - and have him run with Tyberos as a tag team.

I don't know how Raven Guard like bikes - I would assume they use them. There's certainly nothing saying they don't. If your army lets you take a unit, the army can be presumed to use that unit in some capacity. White Scars might not like dreadnoughts, but they still have 'em and use 'em. So don't let assumptions about a chapter's fighting style prevent you from using whatever means you have available. Raven Guard players seem to love Centurions -- but Raven Guard loves being sneaky, and Centurions are anything but -- but that never stopped anyone. And besides -- you're NOT playing Raven Guard! Space Sharks, as far as the fluff is concerned, don't even really know they have any relationship with Raven Guard. They don't remember who their primarch is, and they're not in close touch with any mainstream codex-following chapter regardless -- their only friends are Ashen Claws, and they're obscure renegades who got kicked out of the Raven Guard 10,000 years ago, so it really shouldn't concern the Carcharodons what Raven Guard do or do not like. Presuming Carcharodons come from Terran Raven Guard just like the Ashen Claws, Raven Guard probably don't like Carcharodons at all. After all, they exiled them for a reason lol. Raven Guard is just a template to build your own chapter from. If your Carcharodons wanna use bikes, they'll use em lol. Don't limit yourself - if your codex says you can use a unit, you can use it, and you can just make whatever excuse you want for why it's totally fluffy that they do.

Fair enough yeah I wasn’t limiting myself when I say Ravenguard I don’t mean the lore faction I mean it as players playing Ravenguard. Most lists I see don’t use bikes for whatever reason. And yeah I think I’ll take your tip on the terminators and go all combi-claw with the searg having a fist/plasma. I liked the idea of hard dropping them in but that’s seems more a matched based idea then a permanent strat.

With that I’m also thinking about taking a Psyker but I’ve heard the Umbral discipline is really bad and it’s just easier to talk back on basic psychic stuff so any opinions on this would be neat.

And yeah I think i do need something to threaten characters aside from just Tyberos - I might drop the Elimnators all together, idk though. I think I might take a chaplain on bike and go full melee beat stick. Not sure I want so many characters around the deathball of bladeguard, but doesn’t hurt to make it more deathbally.

If I got rid of the elimnators and swapped some points around to make room for Eradicators would that make more sense?

I'll stand up for Eliminators. First let me say that they are an excellent utility unit, they can forward deploy, they are a small unit size and easy to hide behind LOS blocking terrain, and you may sometimes make use of the Guerrilla tactics stratagem on them to get into your opponents deployment zone or other useful position.

The same inherently small squad size that makes them handy for utility also handicaps their sniping punch. I *do* think they are good at killing characters but you need to take 2 squads if you are going to go that route. With 2 squads:

6 shots * 5/6 hits = ~ 5 hits
5 hits * 2/3 w on a t4 target = ~3-4 w. Reasonable expectation of 1 6 for 1 mw.
enemy 4++ save nullifies 1-2 shots.
Average damage output is about 4-5 wounds on a character with t4 and a 4++. That's not too bad at all.

Beyond that I've found they're surprisingly decent units for general battle purposes. Mortis rounds are pretty good for killing 2 w infantry, and the hyperfrag rounds can clear trash pretty well too.

I think I might take eliminators x6 as a sideboard idea. I like the models enough and I feel with the oncoming CP changes we’re gonna see more important characters and the ability to hit past LOS will be a bit more important.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’ll do an update when I get home of my new list


Automatically Appended Next Post:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Raven Guard) [100 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Carcharodons, Hungry for Battle, Raven Guard Successor, Whirlwind of Rage

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

+ Stratagems +

Stratagem: Relic of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics

+ HQ +

Primaris Chaplain on Bike [8 PL, 150pts]: 4. Mantra of Strength, 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Benediction of Fury, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, Master of Vigilance, Warlord

Primaris Lieutenant [5 PL, -1CP, 90pts]: Master of Ambush, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter
. Neo-volkite pistol, Master-crafted power sword and Storm Shield: Neo-volkite pistol

Tyberos the Red Wake [8 PL, 160pts]

+ Troops +

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 115pts]: Haywire Mine
. 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades
. Incursor Sergeant

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 115pts]: Haywire Mine
. 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades
. Incursor Sergeant

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle
. 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Intercessor Sergeant

+ Elites +

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 175pts]
. 4x Bladeguard Veteran: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Master-crafted power sword, 4x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy Bolt Pistol

Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, -1CP, 115pts]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Vox Espiritum

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 190pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 190pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Relic Terminator Squad [18 PL, 345pts]
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator Sergeant: Combi-bolter, Power fist

+ Fast Attack +

Attack Bike Squad [2 PL, 60pts]
. Attack Bike: Multi-melta

Attack Bike Squad [2 PL, 60pts]
. Attack Bike: Multi-melta

+ Heavy Support +

Eradicator Squad [7 PL, 135pts]: Melta rifle
. 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol
. Eradicator Sgt

++ Total: [100 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe
This is the IMPROVED upon list

apogats wrote:
I'll stand up for Eliminators. First let me say that they are an excellent utility unit, they can forward deploy, they are a small unit size and easy to hide behind LOS blocking terrain, and you may sometimes make use of the Guerrilla tactics stratagem on them to get into your opponents deployment zone or other useful position.

The same inherently small squad size that makes them handy for utility also handicaps their sniping punch. I *do* think they are good at killing characters but you need to take 2 squads if you are going to go that route. With 2 squads:

6 shots * 5/6 hits = ~ 5 hits
5 hits * 2/3 w on a t4 target = ~3-4 w. Reasonable expectation of 1 6 for 1 mw.
enemy 4++ save nullifies 1-2 shots.
Average damage output is about 4-5 wounds on a character with t4 and a 4++. That's not too bad at all.

Beyond that I've found they're surprisingly decent units for general battle purposes. Mortis rounds are pretty good for killing 2 w infantry, and the hyperfrag rounds can clear trash pretty well too.

I'm not hating on Eliminators! Usually I include 2 squads of them in my armies precisely because they make opponents worry about getting their characters killed by them. But that being said, I have only very rarely managed to actually kill any characters with them. If they actually came in squads of 5 - like they potentially can for Death Watch, I think they'd make fairly effective character killers, and you could even have some fun plays with the Instigator Carbine move-shoot-move. I've brought 2 squads of them, at this point, to about 2 dozen games, however, and them doing 4 to 5 wounds on a space marine character is just optimistic in my experience. They average about 2 wounds a turn for me -- and that's with 2 units. The routine is you roll to shoot - somehow one of them rolls a 1, somehow one of the ones who hit fails to wound, and I don't get a 6 to wound. The mortal wound on mortis rounds simply can't be relied on, and the variance in how they perform is simply too high. Truthfully speaking, you really *can't* expect 1 mortal wound with 6 shots -- each dice roll is independent of any other. I've gone many games in a row without them doing a single mortal wound -- and that's shooting mortis rounds practically every turn lol. Now maybe that's my luck - but I've had a lot of trials for them at this point - and luck is what their combat ability comes down. Their output is very high variance, essentially -- and when you have a lot of shots, high variance is just fine -- when you only have 3 shots per unit, it's less fish in a barrel and more just a standard crapshoot. That being said, I still take them often because their non-combat general utility and high durability compared to their points costs make them worth it.... but I just can't count on them to eliminate threats like their name implies -- things like Terminators, Bladeguard, Redemptors, Chaplains and Tyberos himself are much more dependable if I want a character dead. They do a great job of staying put in one place, screening out forward deploys and deep strikes... and making opponents play their characters, and consequently, their whole army, much more conservatively than they otherwise would though -- so they're well worth their value despite their weaknesses. I actually have 9 models of them for this army.

Rahdok wrote:
I think I might take eliminators x6 as a sideboard idea. I like the models enough and I feel with the oncoming CP changes we’re gonna see more important characters and the ability to hit past LOS will be a bit more important.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’ll do an update when I get home of my new list


Automatically Appended Next Post:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Raven Guard) [100 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Carcharodons, Hungry for Battle, Raven Guard Successor, Whirlwind of Rage

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

+ Stratagems +

Stratagem: Relic of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics

+ HQ +

Primaris Chaplain on Bike [8 PL, 150pts]: 4. Mantra of Strength, 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Benediction of Fury, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, Master of Vigilance, Warlord

Primaris Lieutenant [5 PL, -1CP, 90pts]: Master of Ambush, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter
. Neo-volkite pistol, Master-crafted power sword and Storm Shield: Neo-volkite pistol

Tyberos the Red Wake [8 PL, 160pts]

+ Troops +

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 115pts]: Haywire Mine
. 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades
. Incursor Sergeant

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 115pts]: Haywire Mine
. 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades
. Incursor Sergeant

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle
. 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Intercessor Sergeant

+ Elites +

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 175pts]
. 4x Bladeguard Veteran: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Master-crafted power sword, 4x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy Bolt Pistol

Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, -1CP, 115pts]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Vox Espiritum

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 190pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 190pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Relic Terminator Squad [18 PL, 345pts]
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
. Relic Terminator Sergeant: Combi-bolter, Power fist

+ Fast Attack +

Attack Bike Squad [2 PL, 60pts]
. Attack Bike: Multi-melta

Attack Bike Squad [2 PL, 60pts]
. Attack Bike: Multi-melta

+ Heavy Support +

Eradicator Squad [7 PL, 135pts]: Melta rifle
. 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol
. Eradicator Sgt

++ Total: [100 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe
This is the IMPROVED upon list

Now you're getting the idea - this is a solid list. Although I might suggest that since you're bringing forward deploying incursors that you consider not using Master of Ambush here, and use Swift and Deadly instead. I think Master of Ambush can often be a trap if you're still getting used to the army, and as powerful as the ability can be, miscalculating in how you use it could cost you the entire game before it even starts. With Swift and Deadly you can play slightly more conservatively while still remaining fast and aggressive -- and it'll help you get Tyberos into a fight (it's always a TRAGEDY for me if he's on the battlefield but never makes into a scrap! lol). That being said, it's just one thing to consider. As is, this is a much stronger list than the one you started out with, and a good one to build towards as you collect this army.

One more note: you might want to consider switching up your successor traits as well. Hungry for Battle is generally useful and many people love running sharks with the Hungry for Battle + Whirlwind of Rage combo, and there's nothing wrong with doing that, but consider Born Heroes [+1 to hit in melee after charging] as an alternative. Because you have so many forward deploy + advance and charge options and you can always take a chaplain to boost charges and you do have a stratagem that will let you reroll charges as well (against one unit if it's the only unit charged - but applies to your entire army when it comes to charging that unit, so it's better than using the CP reroll if you remember to use it at the -start- of a charge phase and you have a specific target in mind), you might find that you're fast enough to get so close to the enemy that you don't need +1 to charge at all, but a free +1 to hit could come in much more handy. Alternatively, I've found a lot of success running Carcharodons with their recommended Forge World traits: Whirlwind of Rage and Stealthy. The value of stealthy is making sure your heavy fire power units which will likely be fired on during the first turn from long range actually survive to turn 2. Having cover on Redemptors during turn 1 used to make a big difference before Armor of Contempt rolled around ,as they still had a 6+ save against AP -4 - with Armor of Contempt further reducing enemy AP, the Redemptors rarely fall below a 5+ save and stay on the board for much more of the game. Meanwhile, making charges with my melee units is usually a non-issue thanks to combination of pre-game move strats, forward deploys and advance+charge, so lack of Hungry for Battle is hardly noticeable. Another benefit is that Eliminators can be set up out in the open and still benefit from their camo cloaks, as long as they're 18" from the enemy - this gave them a lot more options in terms of their deployment for me and boosted their utility considerably. Just something to think about.

Another edit to cover your other questions:

1. Having a castle of buffing characters around your workhorse killing unit is a pretty good way to play Space Marines. Just make sure you position smart.

2. The Umbral discipline is very bad. It does however have 2 decent spells that would work really well with the Phobos Librarian in particular. The spell Shadowstep functions like Da Jump for orks, but for your characters only. This is a great way to get tyberos within charge range of something he had no other way of reaching, or putting a Riever Lieutenant with Terror Troops on an enemy objective to steal it. If you're taking the Ravenguard psychic discipline, this is the spell to take. The other decent one is the debuff spell that gives an enemy unit -1 to hit and turns off their ability to use overwatch. Against some match ups this is actually very valuable. It also gives you access to Psychic Interrogation which is a pretty solid secondary objective if you take a psyker. But as a general rule - a Librarian is usually just not worth it with Raven Guard. If you go up against a psyker heavy army like thuosand sons or grey knights or eldar you're not only going to be outmatched and have your two spells denied, you're going to give up some very strong secondary objective options. In competitive play, I think it's too much of a gamble to take a psyker - this Chapter is just not very suited to it. [A fun relic to take with the Phobos Librarian if you do take him is the Shadowmaster Cloak iirc, which gives the user a 3+ invulnerable save as long as he's wholly in terrain - can really make him a menace against some armies this way.]

3. You have plenty of character threats I think - bladeguard, terminators, tyberos, a chaplain, dreadnoughts and if you position them right eradicators can all score you points for assassinate. I think you're fine there.

4. Eradicators are great as long as you're not up against a heavily horde based list, in which case eliminators might be higher value. 2 squads of eradicators can be a good move, and you do have the option to spend 1 CP to deep strike them - not a bad option at all when it comes to getting them into 12" range against something with T7 or T8 that needs to be blown off the board. I'd say go for it.

Yeah I was already kinda thinking about switching Hunger for Battle with Born Heroes I feel it’s more reliable, plus if I have my Chaplain with the Terminators makes a bit more sense.

Also, I think somewhere I do plan on having 6 Eliminators, just atm I think this list is solid enough that I wanna try it out and down the line move some stuff around and throw in the Eliminators. I’ve never been a fan of bike units as when I see them they just kinda become a small distraction and the enemy player just deletes them or they super like underperform. So,I’m kinda hesitant to add them, but I’m willing to try em out.

Idk what Swift and Deadly is off hand, Shadow Strike seems to me I can use it defensively or offensively and drop some dudes and my Chaplain somewhere as needed. I’ll look up Swift a bit later after work and see if I like the idea of it a bit more. I’m always Keene to swap things around as needed, but with the recent CP changes and having to buy my initial Warlord Trait/relic I’m gonna be down to like zero to two CP at the start and Infiltrators stratagem being as good as it is I might have to work shop some things.

Rahdok wrote:
Yeah I was already kinda thinking about switching Hunger for Battle with Born Heroes I feel it’s more reliable, plus if I have my Chaplain with the Terminators makes a bit more sense.

Also, I think somewhere I do plan on having 6 Eliminators, just atm I think this list is solid enough that I wanna try it out and down the line move some stuff around and throw in the Eliminators. I’ve never been a fan of bike units as when I see them they just kinda become a small distraction and the enemy player just deletes them or they super like underperform. So,I’m kinda hesitant to add them, but I’m willing to try em out.

Idk what Swift and Deadly is off hand, Shadow Strike seems to me I can use it defensively or offensively and drop some dudes and my Chaplain somewhere as needed. I’ll look up Swift a bit later after work and see if I like the idea of it a bit more. I’m always Keene to swap things around as needed, but with the recent CP changes and having to buy my initial Warlord Trait/relic I’m gonna be down to like zero to two CP at the start and Infiltrators stratagem being as good as it is I might have to work shop some things.

Swift and Deadly is a Warlord Trait that gives the bearer an aura which confers the ability to Charge after Advancing for CORE and CHARACTER units within 6" of the bearer. You can further increase that aura to 9" if you give the bearer the Vox Espiritum, which increases auras by 3". It's a massive speed boost for your melee units and is essential for reliably getting your melee units into combat. It's value only increases if you stick with Hungry for Battle, since they would also get +1 to their advance rolls, and you can have lighting claw terminators potentially moving up to 12" in the movement phase [at the very least, you'll be averaging +4 on advance rolls, so things like bladeguard and terminators will be zipping up the board with impressive speed the vast majority of the time]. This could could very well guarantee you charges very early in the game. In my view, it's the single best Raven Guard warlord trait -- and warlord traits are one of Raven Guard's biggest strengths, practically all of them are good, and this one is practically auto-include to play Carcharodons in a way that reflects their fluff.

Attack Bikes are extremely good. Yes, they're fragile distraction units. They're literally just a multi melta platform. However, they do have Core and a 14" inch move, so you can give them the chapter master reroll and they benefit from reroll auras and other buffs like Rites of War (a warlord trait that gives the bearer a 6" aura of objective secured). They have enormous utility for stealing objectives and they are a very serious threat to anything within 24" of them for a very low cost, which makes them highly efficient units. It's trivial to get an attack bike within 12" of an enemy unit to get the full benefit of the multi-melta (which is 2 shots at S8 AP -4 D6+2 damage), even on Turn 1. A 60 point attack bike could easily feth up any vehicle in the game. You can easily kill a 180 point dread with an attack bike activation, and you could cripple a knight. And because they punch so hard above their weight but are also a single model of 4 wounds, the opponent will try to kill it early on, which is firepower that isn't going to be pointing at one of your much more expensive units -- but also, it's a relatively small model that doesn't actually have a base, so it's trivial to hide it behind obscuring terrain until just when you need it. When it comes down to it, attack bikes are well worth the investment. Like, normal biker squads and outriders are pretty mediocre and you can ignore them safely without missing much, but the multi-melta attack bike is incredibly good. Don't knock it, its tactical value is enormous. The Invader ATV is a solid alternative for 15 more points, you get 4 more wounds, 2 more attacks, access to Transhuman Physiology and other primaris strats, and 6 more bolter shots, but you lose CORE and it's a significantly larger model which is more difficult to manuever around terrain and hide, so it's got drawbacks compared to the Attack Bike - personally I like them, but a lot of people still swear by Attack Bikes, and for good reason.