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Asmodios wrote:
I’m not sure if it still has a cost. I have warhammer plus though so I guess it could technically fall under that? So I’m really not sure if anything is stuck behind a pay wall

The army builder requires a subscription iirc, the datasheets etc are unlocked using the code in the book so free if you buy a new codex.


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Vatsetis wrote:
Exactly how Im promoting piracy? Just because I recognized that something exist dosent mean I endorse it or promoted in any manner.

Just quoting statistics about teenagers pregnancy dosent mean I thing being a teen mom is a desirable outcome.

Extended Digital Piracy is indeed a very bad situation for the community. Hope GW could be more consumer friendly like Corvus Belli and others so we didnt have to have this surreal talks.

Apparently some people believe that reality desapears just by ignoring it.

You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard:

Vatsetis wrote:I find completelly hilarious the copyright talk in Dakka when its almost impossible (without expending a considerable amount of money on a sub par, short life pile of printed material, which is NOT RATIONAL from an economic POV) to follow current 40K meta with out resorting to somesort of illegal piracy.

Perhaps 80 or 90% of players do digital piracy... Pretending that this is not the default way in which 40K players get access to the rules in 2022 is like pretending that most adults dont exercise "self-love" just because its inmoral or even ilegal in some countries.

Vatsetis wrote:
Nice to see the App is getting better. How much those it cost?

So I dumped it a long time ago even though I have Warhammer+. I just went back in to check on it and the missions still have it at 12CP. Am Aux is still 2CP. Abaddon is still 220 points with his old stats.

I uninstalled and reinstalled just to be sure and now it's showing the correct things.

I don't own the CSM book, but I can still make a list. Oddly enough the combi-flamer is "locked", but combi-melta/plas stats are visible as well as datasheets so I have no idea what that's about. It also lets me take multiple icons on Chosen without error. Minor stuff, I guess. It does seem better. I would just hope I don't have to reinstall the damn thing every time there's an update.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
Nice to see the App is getting better. How much those it cost?

So I dumped it a long time ago even though I have Warhammer+. I just went back in to check on it and the missions still have it at 12CP. Am Aux is still 2CP. Abaddon is still 220 points with his old stats.

I uninstalled and reinstalled just to be sure and now it's showing the correct things.

I don't own the CSM book, but I can still make a list. Oddly enough the combi-flamer is "locked", but combi-melta/plas stats are visible as well as datasheets so I have no idea what that's about. It also lets me take multiple icons on Chosen without error. Minor stuff, I guess. It does seem better. I would just hope I don't have to reinstall the damn thing every time there's an update.

Not sure about the chaos unit costs I haven’t made a choas list and I don’t own that codex but the CP is correct you have to select if your playing “grand tournament” or “eternal war”. Grand tournament will have the CP change that only applies in the tournament pack

Asmodios wrote:

Not sure about the chaos unit costs I haven’t made a choas list and I don’t own that codex but the CP is correct you have to select if your playing “grand tournament” or “eternal war”. Grand tournament will have the CP change that only applies in the tournament pack

Yea it works now, but I had to reinstall to get it to show.

I do like that it seems to let you list build without any book.

Dudeface wrote:


You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard:

If you don't understand the concept of economic rationality please be silent on the topic.

Hecaton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard:

If you don't understand the concept of economic rationality please be silent on the topic.

I understand it perfectly, if you don't understand that endorsing pirating because it's more "economically rational" is a problem, please remain silent on the topic.

Well I see it like that. Once we get as rich as others got by conducting world wide piracy, I think we could become open to the idea of some sort of piracy cancelation or limitation.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Not sure about the chaos unit costs I haven’t made a choas list and I don’t own that codex but the CP is correct you have to select if your playing “grand tournament” or “eternal war”. Grand tournament will have the CP change that only applies in the tournament pack

Yea it works now, but I had to reinstall to get it to show.

I do like that it seems to let you list build without any book.

Yeah that’s all I was saying is that it’s much improved over launch and I really enjoyed it. Played a game with my brother last weekend and neither of us had to reference anything other then our phones. The game actually went much faster not having to flip through multiple books and/or needing to pull out a stapled together copy of rules off of websites

Karol wrote:
Well I see it like that. Once we get as rich as others got by conducting world wide piracy, I think we could become open to the idea of some sort of piracy cancelation or limitation.

Ahh bless you Karol, I'm utterly confused by what you wrote, but it diffused the whole thing for me, like putting a puppy on the table.

"You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard".

English is not my mother tongue... But last time I checked "what people do" and "what people should" are not the same thing.

Vatsetis wrote:
"You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard".

English is not my mother tongue... But last time I checked "what people do" and "what people should" are not the same thing.

Let me word it differently then, by saying that it's economically irrational to buy the physical books, you're saying that the rational course of action and by extension what any level headed or educated person should conclude, is to pirate the books.

The moment you claim people buying books are irrational, you're immediately presenting the opposite as the rational thing to do.

Dudeface wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
"You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard".

English is not my mother tongue... But last time I checked "what people do" and "what people should" are not the same thing.

Let me word it differently then, by saying that it's economically irrational to buy the physical books, you're saying that the rational course of action and by extension what any level headed or educated person should conclude, is to pirate the books.

The moment you claim people buying books are irrational, you're immediately presenting the opposite as the rational thing to do.

I'm not really going to heavily wade into this, but being forced to purchase overpriced CDs for music wasn't "economically rational". That's why we had all those piracy tools.

Now there's an easier method for the consumer to access music and that piracy largely went away.

There are people who are pirates regardless. Then there are pirates of convenience. Make a product accessible and the latter goes away. Streaming services stopped film piracy until we started getting all the walled gardens and now it's on the rise again where people aren't going to have 5 or 10 different services to watch all the shows. Like there's no way I am buying Apple+ just for Ted Lasso.

Anyway....same concept. The better GW makes it's product the less it will be pirated.

^Well said Daed.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
"You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard".

English is not my mother tongue... But last time I checked "what people do" and "what people should" are not the same thing.

Let me word it differently then, by saying that it's economically irrational to buy the physical books, you're saying that the rational course of action and by extension what any level headed or educated person should conclude, is to pirate the books.

The moment you claim people buying books are irrational, you're immediately presenting the opposite as the rational thing to do.

I'm not really going to heavily wade into this, but being forced to purchase overpriced CDs for music wasn't "economically rational". That's why we had all those piracy tools.

Now there's an easier method for the consumer to access music and that piracy largely went away.

There are people who are pirates regardless. Then there are pirates of convenience. Make a product accessible and the latter goes away. Streaming services stopped film piracy until we started getting all the walled gardens and now it's on the rise again where people aren't going to have 5 or 10 different services to watch all the shows. Like there's no way I am buying Apple+ just for Ted Lasso.

Anyway....same concept. The better GW makes it's product the less it will be pirated.

Newell said that piracy is a problem with service, not price. I can argue it's both in the case of GW.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Newell said that piracy is a problem with service, not price. I can argue it's both in the case of GW.

Also, I'm pretty sure nobody's ever gotten in trouble for pirating 1% of a book. But clearly I'm some kind of anti-capitalist anarchist. So, you know, read that in context.

So think about this also the owners of most these company's in the not so distant past made the money to start often times by stealing from those around them basically the wealthy have money because at some point they stole it from the poor. This is the world over every country just look at Merica a couple generations ago slavery was legal do you think the people that owned slaves ever gave bavk the money they made from selling other people?
Or the back breaking labor and torture they forced on others? No they instead passed it down to there children. The people who sit on top in the world got there through stealing and rapping the people and environment around them then passing it to there kids. feth these corporations they have taken to much.


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One could say the poorest among us are really the most decent and unfortunately the most prayed upon people in the world.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Newell said that piracy is a problem with service, not price. I can argue it's both in the case of GW.

It can certainly be a barrier. Though these days companies love to bleed you for more, but with a monthly sub. I'd be ok paying like $8/mo, which is like a codex and a half a year.

And people some how think the world is a metocracy lol as long as such a thing as inheritance exists there can never be a metocracy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
"You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard".

English is not my mother tongue... But last time I checked "what people do" and "what people should" are not the same thing.

Let me word it differently then, by saying that it's economically irrational to buy the physical books, you're saying that the rational course of action and by extension what any level headed or educated person should conclude, is to pirate the books.

The moment you claim people buying books are irrational, you're immediately presenting the opposite as the rational thing to do.

I'm not really going to heavily wade into this, but being forced to purchase overpriced CDs for music wasn't "economically rational". That's why we had all those piracy tools.

Now there's an easier method for the consumer to access music and that piracy largely went away.

There are people who are pirates regardless. Then there are pirates of convenience. Make a product accessible and the latter goes away. Streaming services stopped film piracy until we started getting all the walled gardens and now it's on the rise again where people aren't going to have 5 or 10 different services to watch all the shows. Like there's no way I am buying Apple+ just for Ted Lasso.

Anyway....same concept. The better GW makes it's product the less it will be pirated.

Sums it up perfectly tbh, we all know GWs release process and structure is utter turd, they could change the model but haven't yet and if they do it'll solve the issue to a large degree.

Boosykes wrote:
So think about this also the owners of most these company's in the not so distant past made the money to start often times by stealing from those around them basically the wealthy have money because at some point they stole it from the poor. This is the world over every country just look at Merica a couple generations ago slavery was legal do you think the people that owned slaves ever gave bavk the money they made from selling other people?
Or the back breaking labor and torture they forced on others? No they instead passed it down to there children. The people who sit on top in the world got there through stealing and rapping the people and environment around them then passing it to there kids. feth these corporations they have taken to much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One could say the poorest among us are really the most decent and unfortunately the most prayed upon people in the world.

Well that seems off topic. . .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Boosykes wrote:
And people some how think the world is a metocracy lol as long as such a thing as inheritance exists there can never be a metocracy.

Hahaha, that's definitely not true. I've seen people inherit lots of money and lose it through their lack of personal merit, lol.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Newell said that piracy is a problem with service, not price. I can argue it's both in the case of GW.

It can certainly be a barrier. Though these days companies love to bleed you for more, but with a monthly sub. I'd be ok paying like $8/mo, which is like a codex and a half a year.

We've already seen what GW is capable of delivering for around that amount. Methinks you give them tok much credit. The quality is worth the price of FREE.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Newell said that piracy is a problem with service, not price. I can argue it's both in the case of GW.

It can certainly be a barrier. Though these days companies love to bleed you for more, but with a monthly sub. I'd be ok paying like $8/mo, which is like a codex and a half a year.

We've already seen what GW is capable of delivering for around that amount. Methinks you give them tok much credit. The quality is worth the price of FREE.

Well given you play the game with their rules it obviously has some value you.

Came to read about CSM. Ended up reading about money, morality and pirates. Not a good time. How about we open a new thread for such things and get back to giving lazy people like me, information.

Vatsetis wrote:
"You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard".

English is not my mother tongue... But last time I checked "what people do" and "what people should" are not the same thing.

People who are bad at critical thinking often conflate what is with what should be.

I gotta say, Daedalus was right on the money with the analogy to music.

Piracy is only popular when the Correct way of obtaining something becomes to onerous or difficult a task to achieve. For instance, Napster and the P2P systems that took colleges by storm in the early 00s were a lash back against a music industry that made it difficult to obtain good music cheaply. CDs back then were around 20$, which at the time was essentially 5-6 hours of pay that you had to work in order to get. My first job was 3.50/hour scrubbing dishes while in college. It was far easier to just hop onto the local college P2P Campus Network, open up the folder for public music, and take what I wanted.

Then, Apple was like, what if we only charged 99cents per song and made them SUPER easy to download and carry around digitally? Suddenly Pirating CDs was a thing of the past, because most people only ever like 2-3 songs on an album, and the other 8-9 songs are just crap. Unless it's the Blue album by Weezer. Or Pinkerton.

But I digress. If Piracy is =/< the amount of work to do it legally, Piracy wins. When GW makes the books easier to obtain than pirating them, people will go back to GW. Like, for instance, no one really "pirates" OPR, because it's a 5$ "donation" to their patreon and you get the rules, and a bunch of STLs.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Suddenly Pirating CDs was a thing of the past, because most people only ever like 2-3 songs on an album, and the other 8-9 songs are just crap.

Have you tried having better taste in music?

When GW makes the books easier to obtain than pirating them, people will go back to GW.

The books are trivially easy to obtain. You go to the GW store, click "buy", and a few days later a shiny new copy of the book arrives at your house. Or next time you're at your local store you hand the guy behind the cash register some money and he gives you a copy of the book. What you really mean here is that you won't buy legally until GW meets your price demands and makes everything $1 to suit your entitlement issues.

And all this talk about prices and music is revisionist history. Piracy didn't die because an album got slightly cheaper, it died because the primary reason it existed was that the music industry was slow to adopt new technology. The industry was still locked into selling physical CDs at a time when music consumption was moving to mp3 players and listening on your PC, and the only way to get music legally in the format most people wanted to listen to it in was ripping CDs with error-prone software that usually required multiple attempts to get a successful copy. That's what people mean when they say that piracy is a service issue. Once the music industry embraced digital distribution piracy died out except for a handful of people like you that think "I want this to be cheaper" justifies stealing something.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I gotta say, Daedalus was right on the money with the analogy to music.

Piracy is only popular when the Correct way of obtaining something becomes to onerous or difficult a task to achieve. For instance, Napster and the P2P systems that took colleges by storm in the early 00s were a lash back against a music industry that made it difficult to obtain good music cheaply. CDs back then were around 20$, which at the time was essentially 5-6 hours of pay that you had to work in order to get. My first job was 3.50/hour scrubbing dishes while in college. It was far easier to just hop onto the local college P2P Campus Network, open up the folder for public music, and take what I wanted.

Then, Apple was like, what if we only charged 99cents per song and made them SUPER easy to download and carry around digitally? Suddenly Pirating CDs was a thing of the past, because most people only ever like 2-3 songs on an album, and the other 8-9 songs are just crap. Unless it's the Blue album by Weezer. Or Pinkerton.

But I digress. If Piracy is =/< the amount of work to do it legally, Piracy wins. When GW makes the books easier to obtain than pirating them, people will go back to GW. Like, for instance, no one really "pirates" OPR, because it's a 5$ "donation" to their patreon and you get the rules, and a bunch of STLs.

Ahh, so much off topic. I'll join, but I'll keep it short. (For me anyway)

Buying music by the song, for some, was the beginning of the end. I used to only buy music by bands that were good enough that there was never more than two duds on an album. And bands were incentivized to make albums that good. I think of concept albums- like Rush 2112 or the Who's Quadrophenia, or anything by Floyd... Even things like Queensryche's Operation Mindcrime or Green Day's American Idiot (yeah I know... not the worlds most talented musicians, but damn that album captured the Zeitgheist of its era).

In the day of pay by song, no one cares about albums anymore, and one good hit is all you need.

Paying by song is convenient, but like letting your cell phone remember phone numbers, passwords and rules, it reduces your brain capacity.

Got, I hate that I sound like a "Get off my lawn!" old-timer, but man... I do feel a lot has been lost. Don't get me wrong- tech has its place. But never forget how to live without it, because it isn't guaranteed to be there forever.

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Newell said that piracy is a problem with service, not price. I can argue it's both in the case of GW.

It can certainly be a barrier. Though these days companies love to bleed you for more, but with a monthly sub. I'd be ok paying like $8/mo, which is like a codex and a half a year.

We've already seen what GW is capable of delivering for around that amount. Methinks you give them tok much credit. The quality is worth the price of FREE.

Well given you play the game with their rules it obviously has some value you.

Not really. I simply can't get people to pick up One Page Rules or something else as I don't have the time to create a group or sway the current one.

The value is using the models I have. Then again you defend their removal via "jUsT uSe As SoMeThInG eLsE" or "YoU aRe PoWeR gAmEr" so I'm not sure what you know about value.

Dudeface wrote:
I altered the quote because he said some junk I didn't read

Weren't you going to go leave us to our whining? Bugging us about 'upholding forum rules' or somecrap while not even able to uphold your own word.

You also ignored all the points I made, which to me just says you're here to troll and stir up reactions.

To anyone else reading this, stop responding to this gnat, he's not even making good points and barely knows how to spell in half of his posts.

I think one could also say the change in economics as it relates to music killed the piracy of certain music. For instance, Metallica getting all butthurt over their music being used and obtained illegally (Taking literal teens to court) was a stupid joke anyway. Musicians make 90% of their revenue from contracts and merch sales. No one gives a crap about CD's being pirated, because that literally only hurts the distributor, who already purchased the unsold inventory. Metallica and others knew this.

Which lead to System of a Down making a CD that literally read "Steal this CD" on the cover, because they couldn't care less about the CD sales, they only cared about people buying tickets to shows, and tshirts, and stuff that can't be pirated.

GW is in a self made prison. They've created a product that is easily pirated, and they cannot or will not take the very simple step of making them digital download only, or behind a digital paywall, to stop their piracy problem. DND Beyond basically stopped people from downloading PDFs of old books, because it's easier to pay 20USD and get the full new and up to date book, that synergizes with the handy app. GW needs to take a lesson from WotC and make their game Digital Download friendly.

And cue all the grognards arguing out of spite because they want to feel the glossy paper inbetween their booger hooks.