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PenitentJake wrote:

Voss wrote:

Considering its melee only and they're both using the same brand of chainsword, and neither is known for either type of fighting style... OK then. Thanks for proving my point. This 'rules lore' (both the stuff you just made up and the actual lore you seem to know nothing about) is obviously 'super important'

So when I respond to posts, I'm not always in the place where books are, and I don't always double check. If the rules we're talking are melee only, then you also failed to mention that in the post I was responding to- I took exactly what you gave me, interpreted a possible meaning to these rules, and put that back out there with the explanation that "merely saying a thing about your army because it's in the fluff doesn't ACTUALLY reflect the fluff when nothing happens on the table" - that point stands, regardless of the specific rules in question.

I did not realize 'jump pack troops' was ambiguous.

I'm not sure how your point 'stands,' though. Neither the rules, the fluff or what you thought either was was correct in any way. Clearly it doesn't contribute well to the fluff OR the rules.

And again, yes, it is debatable whether or not a specific subfaction's rules actually match the fluff- I certainly agree that GW does a better job with some subfactions than others, and yes, that can be problematic... But that's still not what we've actually been exchanging posts about. This set of posts have been about whether or not subfaction rules should exist at all.

Right And if its a fluff bad matchup merely for rules advantage, I'm not sure why it should exist. Its not something that 'could be better,' it just doesn't need to exist at all.

In my opinion, they should. Because SAYING your subfaction are better shooters is not the same as them actually BEING better shooters... or whatever specific rule we happen to be discussing.

Right... see, saying [Color]=better shooter is a dumb bit of background. Marine are all above average competent. Being better 'because Yellow' is not 'depth of background,' its just inane and childish. Like a novice RPG player saying their level 5 fighter is the bestest swordsman ever. That's not something that's achievable within the system, so there isn't any point in making it part of the background.

Regarding new factions: the kroot/alien auxiliary list mentioned way earlier in this discussion sounds really cool.

Also: there should be some Chaos followers amongst aliens in my opinion. Maybe as one optional subfaction of that alien list

Karol wrote:
Werent dark elfs, just like demons, undead and high elfs in fatasy ? Always one of the more powerful books

No. Youve just rolled off a list of the most powerful mid to late 7th ed books. Dark Elves in particular were often rather tame like their 40k cousins. Daemons had a total of two real army books over the history of WHFB. Tomb Kings, who I am assuming you count as undead were usually quite poor.

Yeah, Vampire Counts, Demons and Skaven were the top armies iirc. High Elves were pretty strong too, as they had powerful magic and their troops always struck first. You didn't hear much about Dark Elves.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, Vampire Counts, Demons and Skaven were the top armies iirc. High Elves were pretty strong too, as they had powerful magic and their troops always struck first. You didn't hear much about Dark Elves.

Dark Elves were pretty nasty in 7th when they could build an essentially unkillable lord with none to shabby combat abilities
And had the Black Guard who were just all round excellent.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, Vampire Counts, Demons and Skaven were the top armies iirc. High Elves were pretty strong too, as they had powerful magic and their troops always struck first. You didn't hear much about Dark Elves.

It really depends on when you look. The 6th Edition High Elf army book for instance was pretty bad. Okay, more than just pretty bad. It was atrociously bad. It had far more expensive troops than other armies who just weren't that much better so they would usually get ground to a paste. Daemons did relatively well when they had their own army because it was an army that ignored quite a few basic rules and had a pretty good melee ability. Skaven also varried but had lots of incredibly powerful weapons so they tended to rank pretty highly. Vampire Counts also varied. They tended to not have a great melee ability in most of their units and relied on their characters. They were pretty strong (especially because of some movement tricks) but would struggle when not properly supported.

Karol wrote:
Werent dark elfs, just like demons, undead and high elfs in fatasy ? Always one of the more powerful books there were. That is like saying that harlequins have a good design, because they work both as part of CWE and as a solo army. The majority of armies in w40k do not have the core or basic unit rules to carry a themed list without special rule. An army of just termintors without inner circle rules is just a very bad space marine army.

As usual, you've missed the point. DE were pretty decent as an army at the time, yes, though not top tier. What I'm pointing out is it's possible to allow people to create armies that are consistent with the background in terms of unit composition and playstyle, without needing a bunch of extra special rules tacked on. It's just a matter of making sure the units represent the fluff properly and aren't absolutely terrible.

On a similar note, there's a tendency towards Flanderization of sub-factions that bespoke rules for those sub-factions encourage. Most SM Chapters fight in roughly the same way, for example. The differences between Blood Angels and Ultramarines should be relatively minor. BA are still largely Codex-compliant and should fight that way. Instead, we get hordes of elite jump pack troops and frothing lunatics, because the rules dictate that.

First of the difference between BA and Ultramarines is not minor. If it was minor, then one of the faction wouldn't exist, because a separate rule set would not be needed.

Hordes of elite jump pack troops and DC is rules, that is right, because that is their entire lore. There were times when entire companies of BAs went DC with the entire command structure, minus the chaplains becoming "frothing lunatics".

As the DE being decent, I actualy asked about it, because I never played anything outside of AoS. And they were only considered decent when comparing to demons or undead, high elfs who were more broken. And while never got to expiriance DE, I have seen casual eldar lists in 8th ed over power other factions tournament lists. So yeah, I stay by my view. When an army has super powerful army rules and the core rules are in their favour, they can play sub standard builds, because there is stuff that can carry such a list. Eldar seem to be full of such units, which shows up in their nerfs. GW thinks they are hard nerfing them, often after months or longer of being top tier, and by the time they kill a build, the eldar player have moved on to something else. this was true for Eldar in 8th, when GW was still nerfing the hell out of reapers, when players already moved to flyer lists. Or in 9th, when GW thought they have "fixed" Dark Eldar, only to be suprised that somehow they managed to write the rules in a such a way that an entire 60% win rate list hid inside of the codex, in the form of meat mountain.

Karol wrote:
First of the difference between BA and Ultramarines is not minor. If it was minor, then one of the faction wouldn't exist, because a separate rule set would not be needed.

This is a nice summary of what a lot of people have been saying in this very thread: reduce sub-faction bloat because the differences its trying to represent are ridiculously minor. Maybe you can make the argument that BA have sufficient differences to warrant their own Codex, but the same argument in regards to Iron Hands or Imperial Fists seems much harder to take seriously.

Karol wrote:

Hordes of elite jump pack troops and DC is rules, that is right, because that is their entire lore.

No, it's not. BA lore is much deeper than "all jump pack all the time". They have a preference for rapid assaults and use jump packs as their preferred delivery method. Maybe that means they might have 1 or 2 more jump pack units than other chapters. Other than an ad hoc DC, Sanguinary Guard and some very minor vehicle loadout differences BA are a Codex compliant chapter. They should be very similar to UM in terms of army composition.

Imperial Guard regiments are far more different than any space marine chapter is, yet they don't have their own codexes.

Marines are popular, ergo more types of Marine. Same as every other time this dumb argument crops up.

Why yes, if a faction gets the lion's share of marketing and pushed as the "protagonist' faction, they will be more popular.
Even though the "protagonists" are just living weapon systems, half of which got the Imperium into the mess it is now.

through out most edition time marines are under 50% win rate army, and very often it is under 40% win rate. Starting a space marine army is asking to be disappointed.

I am also sure that marine players are flocking to buy this primaris attack bikes, primaris speeders, primaris predators, bunkers, gun emplacements or those rare faction Lt models.

Karol wrote:
through out most edition time marines are under 50% win rate army, and very often it is under 40% win rate. Starting a space marine army is asking to be disappointed.

I am also sure that marine players are flocking to buy this primaris attack bikes, primaris speeders, primaris predators, bunkers, gun emplacements or those rare faction Lt models.

tournaments results don't mean gak for most playgroups, Marines have been doing well in the 3 playgroups i'm a part of

Tournament results, heck even just people playing the game doesn't mean much to GW.
GW cares about model sales and people like Space Marines. The Marine Codex could have a 0% tournament win rate and it wouldn't matter.

Not technically new factions, but I would like the books to expand on the lore we already have but don't have models or rules for.

Things like Exodites being rolled into the Aeldari books similar to the way Harlies were, Guard being given different data sheets for different regiment specific units, traitor guard rules in the Chaos books, more Tau Auxiliary units, etc

Exodites don't even have anything to roll into the codex as is besides a little lore. There's not a single model to their name.

Personally I feel like they'd stand alone as their own army more so than Harlequins.

Harlies and Inquisition always felt like elite troops that bolted onto main armies. Knights and titans as well, though GW has kind of made Knights work on their own.




Of course GW could start building some fanbase for Exodites by releasing a model of a named hero or character and such. But once you start to look at them their army roster would quickly end up as wide as the Craftworld or Dark Elf. Especially as the jetbike and vehicle core would be almost entirely replaced with beasts of burden etc...

They don't even need to try that hard.
I mean, they have freakin' dinosaurs with laser weapons, how rad is that?

Exactly! I don't get why they aren't a thing and why GW have dragged their heels for 30 years with them. They clearly love the concept because its a bit of lore they always keep rolling out. Heck they did an entire video for Warhammer+ called The Exodite; however you could easily have called it "the ranger" as it really was mostly an Eldar acting like a ranger lighting beacons before titans came to save the day. Not a single dinosaur

 Overread wrote:
Exodites don't even have anything to roll into the codex as is besides a little lore. There's not a single model to their name.

Personally I feel like they'd stand alone as their own army more so than Harlequins.

Harlies and Inquisition always felt like elite troops that bolted onto main armies. Knights and titans as well, though GW has kind of made Knights work on their own.




Of course GW could start building some fanbase for Exodites by releasing a model of a named hero or character and such. But once you start to look at them their army roster would quickly end up as wide as the Craftworld or Dark Elf. Especially as the jetbike and vehicle core would be almost entirely replaced with beasts of burden etc...

You get what I'm suggesting though? People have been crying out for Exodites for years. Just make a unit or two for each slot and add them to the Aeldari/Drukhari books. Add some little caveats for their inclusion in the overall list unless you make a "pure" Exodite list, and boom, playable Exodites.


You could also have a book that has absolutely tons of datasheets in it, and a list beforehand detailing what units are available for each subfaction and in what quantities. Just add two or three unique datasheets for each subfaction.

So maybe a Guard book that lists Kasrkin as Cadian exclusive, and Rough Riders are for Death Korps and Attilan. Maybe Catachans get a special monster hunter veteran unit, and so on.

If you want Kasrkin and Rough Riders in the same list? Take a Cadian detachment and an Attilan detachment.

All of your generic choices are still there in abundance, but it lets people really go in on their chosen Regiment/Chapter/Klan/etc if they really want to.

Karol wrote:
First of the difference between BA and Ultramarines is not minor. If it was minor, then one of the faction wouldn't exist, because a separate rule set would not be needed.

It is minor.

Organisationally the two chapters are near identical. In fact they're more similar now than back in second edition, since Ultramarines now have Veteran Assault Squads Vanguard as well, and Blood Angels have Sternguard.

The only real difference is that the Blood Angel equivalent of Honour Guard (~30/1000 dudes) wear jump packs (I'm sure that the Raven Guard or Hawk Lords have no equivalent units...) and that there's an extra ad-hoc formation of Death Company (again chapters like the Black Dragons have Dragon Claws, Sons of Anteus have Abominations, Space Wolves have Wulfen, which are all the same archetype).

Karol wrote:
Hordes of elite jump pack troops and DC is rules, that is right, because that is their entire lore. There were times when entire companies of BAs went DC with the entire command structure, minus the chaplains becoming "frothing lunatics".

If you think that the Blood Angels' entire lore is elite jump troops and Death Company then you have no clue what you're talking about. You're the sort of person who thinks that Ned Flanders entire character is that he's Christian and say's woople-doople words.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
Not technically new factions, but I would like the books to expand on the lore we already have but don't have models or rules for.

Things like Exodites being rolled into the Aeldari books similar to the way Harlies were, Guard being given different data sheets for different regiment specific units, traitor guard rules in the Chaos books, more Tau Auxiliary units, etc

I'd like this quite a bit, I was pleased they managed to add in the Corsairs model sheets to line up with the Kill Team release. While I don't play Tau, about half of my friends who do would really love to have a more diversified playstyle which auxiliaries. There's a wealth of xenos races out there and hopefully we see some great sculpts of those to add to the roster one day.

 Overread wrote:
Exactly! I don't get why they aren't a thing and why GW have dragged their heels for 30 years with them. They clearly love the concept because its a bit of lore they always keep rolling out. Heck they did an entire video for Warhammer+ called The Exodite; however you could easily have called it "the ranger" as it really was mostly an Eldar acting like a ranger lighting beacons before titans came to save the day. Not a single dinosaur

Considering the amount of new elf concepts AoS has rolled out during the last couple of years I'm really surprised there aren't exodites yet. You can't tell me dinosaur riding elves would be less popular than shark riding elves. However, that may just be because even GW realized how outdated the Craftworld range was and they wanted to have that sorted out first. Also, Corsairs obviously was the easier thing to do with a token unit (I know I know, they had much more than that from FW, but here we are).
8th edition rulebook also hinted at a Chaos Eldar faction, overall I think it's a missed opportunity that we only see human Chaos followers all the time, even a single squat/ Kroot/ eldar in that terrible Cultist box or in that Cultist leadership box would have been great. And you bet people would have started immediately building complete squat cultist mobs, with properly oversized hats of course.

I very much agree Craftworld needed a big update, so I was surprised when Necrons got the huge update slot at the start of the new edition as they weren't honestly in a bad place before that. I think now the only old necron stuff is the destroyers and destroyer lord and the unique heroes. Everything else is modern plastic kits.

Craftworld have had some good attention though and they sorely needed it.




I do get the feeling that AoS right now has a bulk of creative staff whilst 40K is almost limping on old designs and upgrading and nothing fresh. I wonder if its a reflection of finances (hard to push anything past when its not a new marine); or a reflection of the lore; or just the creative staff and such.

40K has had odd things like models still in finecast after years of the faction having no new release (Tyranids); or Craftworld falling so far behind in updates etc... Alongside that the Marine army doubled in size but conceptually didn't feel like a huge leap because a lot of the Primaris stuff is just "here's the same unit concept in a different form" as opposed ot giving totally new concepts and ideas.

What about a codex for each faction to have an equivalent to imperial and chaos knights? Or at least introduce a titan type codex for Orks and nids, they seem most logical for some reason. But we know nearly all factions had units designed for epic 40K that were at that size

 Overread wrote:
I very much agree Craftworld needed a big update, so I was surprised when Necrons got the huge update slot at the start of the new edition as they weren't honestly in a bad place before that. I think now the only old necron stuff is the destroyers and destroyer lord and the unique heroes. Everything else is modern plastic kits.

Craftworld have had some good attention though and they sorely needed it.




I do get the feeling that AoS right now has a bulk of creative staff whilst 40K is almost limping on old designs and upgrading and nothing fresh. I wonder if its a reflection of finances (hard to push anything past when its not a new marine); or a reflection of the lore; or just the creative staff and such.

40K has had odd things like models still in finecast after years of the faction having no new release (Tyranids); or Craftworld falling so far behind in updates etc... Alongside that the Marine army doubled in size but conceptually didn't feel like a huge leap because a lot of the Primaris stuff is just "here's the same unit concept in a different form" as opposed ot giving totally new concepts and ideas.

40k feels like it is going backwards for me. AoS has been so much more fun to play and follow lately.

So many units being removed bc GW doesn't want and conversion, or having to buy other kits for bits has also really put me off too. I was thinking of going back to CSM but with the removal of some things I just dont care anymore (gear options, no jump/bike on lords, etc...) I also played CSM in 7th and had some limited fun with them with the 3.5 codex. So i might just be spoiled, but also my DE has only had things removed and nothing added for literally 4 codices in a row and this is really starting to get to me badly.

PS: FFS GW, remove Ynnari from CWE and make an Outcasts Supplement (not a WD but a full release codex) add the 3 Ynnari character, 1 troop from each Aeldari army, Corsairs as real troops and Elite, add in 1 or 2 extra units from CWE/DE, and add in a couple Exodite units. Make it a full on Outcasts army with Ynnari as a Subfaction in that without this really stupid way you are doing it now, also Ynnari lore makes WAY more sense to be Outcasts base. GW get your act together.

AoS feels like its in a strange spot right now.

1) I'd love to see the double turn gone!

2) They've got this complicated reinforcements system so right now minimum unit compositions are king because at 2K points you can only have 2 full units; everything else has to be mini composition.

Which is good as it makes middleweight elite units more viable; but its bad because it removes infantry blocks.


I get the feeling AoS and 40K are on a slim edition or two from Gw as they focus on getting more customers ;then we'll see things grow again

 Overread wrote:
AoS feels like its in a strange spot right now.

1) I'd love to see the double turn gone!

2) They've got this complicated reinforcements system so right now minimum unit compositions are king because at 2K points you can only have 2 full units; everything else has to be mini composition.

Which is good as it makes middleweight elite units more viable; but its bad because it removes infantry blocks.


I get the feeling AoS and 40K are on a slim edition or two from Gw as they focus on getting more customers ;then we'll see things grow again

We can talk about the double turn somewhere else, but if you ca find my history on it in the AoS chat you can see I for now as the game is really enjoy and think the double turn is needed.

Back to 40k though. Give me Outcasts.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Karol wrote:
First of the difference between BA and Ultramarines is not minor. If it was minor, then one of the faction wouldn't exist, because a separate rule set would not be needed.

It is minor.

Organisationally the two chapters are near identical. In fact they're more similar now than back in second edition, since Ultramarines now have Veteran Assault Squads Vanguard as well, and Blood Angels have Sternguard.

The only real difference is that the Blood Angel equivalent of Honour Guard (~30/1000 dudes) wear jump packs (I'm sure that the Raven Guard or Hawk Lords have no equivalent units...) and that there's an extra ad-hoc formation of Death Company (again chapters like the Black Dragons have Dragon Claws, Sons of Anteus have Abominations, Space Wolves have Wulfen, which are all the same archetype).

Karol wrote:
Hordes of elite jump pack troops and DC is rules, that is right, because that is their entire lore. There were times when entire companies of BAs went DC with the entire command structure, minus the chaplains becoming "frothing lunatics".

If you think that the Blood Angels' entire lore is elite jump troops and Death Company then you have no clue what you're talking about. You're the sort of person who thinks that Ned Flanders entire character is that he's Christian and say's woople-doople words.

Sanguinary Guard are not Venguard Veterans. I don't get where you get that from. They are distinct in both their arments and looks from regular assault veterans companies have. and DC are not an ad hoc formation. They are something of a daily occurance for all scions of Sanguinius. Dante almost went DC, if it wasn't for the Salamander guys helping him go through. They have gear which puts them at odds with ad mecha, non sanctioned engines for rhinos, razorbacks etc SW didn't have wulfen, outside of singular occurance per company, till the whole siege of Fenris thing. DC is part of BAs and their successors since their gene father died.
Same goes for other marine chapters, the DW and RW are not just dudes in termintor armour and dudes on bikes. RW aren't even a FA reserve company. And saying that SW or BT are practicaly the same as ultramarines just makes no sense, as GWs own material says that they are very much different. And you are right other chapters have "special" units too. RG have dudes that can use the shadow realm and teleport around, salamanders have their drakes etc. But it doesn't matter in game, because GW runs under the no model no rules. So until GW produces specific RG or Salamander kits the players don't have access to their special units.


I don't know who Ned Flanders is, I am assuming he is from the low countries, and what christianity has to do with divergent structures of different space marine chapters.

Ned Flanders is a character from the Simpsons, known for being very religious and very friendly.