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I have a very niche rule question. There is a Custodes specific Shadowthrone Battle Trait called Inexorable Persecution, which has the following effect: "Each time a charge roll is made for this model, any distances of less than 7" count as 7"

Now if a model also gets +1 to its charge rolls, for example because they have the Solar Watch shield host, does that effectively mean they always get at least an 8" charge? Or does the "charge roll always counts as 7" include all modifiers that are added after the roll?

5 inches +1 =6 which counts as 7" with Inexorable Persecution

 DeathReaper wrote:
5 inches +1 =6 which counts as 7" with Inexorable Persecution

So the effect is only applied after modifiers? I wasn't sure because it specifically mentiones the roll itself, so I thought if the sum of the two D6 for the charge is less then 7, they cound as seven, then add modifiers.

 DeathReaper wrote:
5 inches +1 =6 which counts as 7" with Inexorable Persecution

Citation please. There is nothing in the rules supporting this.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
5 inches +1 =6 which counts as 7" with Inexorable Persecution

Citation please. There is nothing in the rules supporting this.

The rules support it.

Check the Dice section under "modifier". It says "All modifiers (if any) to a dice roll are cumulative; you must apply all division modifiers before applying all multiplication modifiers, and before applying all addition and then all subtraction modifiers. Round any fractions up after applying all modifiers."

Nothing says to apply Inexorable Persecution before you calculate modifiers, so you can not do that.

Permissive ruleset and all.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
5 inches +1 =6 which counts as 7" with Inexorable Persecution

Citation please. There is nothing in the rules supporting this.

The rules support it.

Check the Dice section under "modifier". It says "All modifiers (if any) to a dice roll are cumulative; you must apply all division modifiers before applying all multiplication modifiers, and before applying all addition and then all subtraction modifiers. Round any fractions up after applying all modifiers."

Nothing says to apply Inexorable Persecution before you calculate modifiers, so you can not do that.

Permissive ruleset and all.

But nothing in your citation says that you have to apply inexorable persecution after adding the modifiers to the dice roll. The citation only states how to calculate if you have multiple modifiers.

Tiberias wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
5 inches +1 =6 which counts as 7" with Inexorable Persecution

Citation please. There is nothing in the rules supporting this.

The rules support it.

Check the Dice section under "modifier". It says "All modifiers (if any) to a dice roll are cumulative; you must apply all division modifiers before applying all multiplication modifiers, and before applying all addition and then all subtraction modifiers. Round any fractions up after applying all modifiers."

Nothing says to apply Inexorable Persecution before you calculate modifiers, so you can not do that.

Permissive ruleset and all.

But nothing in your citation says that you have to apply inexorable persecution after adding the modifiers to the dice roll. The citation only states how to calculate if you have multiple modifiers.

That is because it does not need to.

You are instructed to roll for the charge, "You then make a charge roll for your unit by rolling 2D6" (Charge phase rules) Then you move your models if they rolled high enough. "This is the maximum number of inches each model in the charging unit can now be moved if they can make the charge move"

So you need to determine what the unit actually rolled too see if you get a distance "of less than 7[inches]" before you see if you can use Inexorable Persecution to count the roll as 7inches

 DeathReaper wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
5 inches +1 =6 which counts as 7" with Inexorable Persecution

Citation please. There is nothing in the rules supporting this.

The rules support it.

Check the Dice section under "modifier". It says "All modifiers (if any) to a dice roll are cumulative; you must apply all division modifiers before applying all multiplication modifiers, and before applying all addition and then all subtraction modifiers. Round any fractions up after applying all modifiers."

Nothing says to apply Inexorable Persecution before you calculate modifiers, so you can not do that.

Permissive ruleset and all.

But nothing in your citation says that you have to apply inexorable persecution after adding the modifiers to the dice roll. The citation only states how to calculate if you have multiple modifiers.

That is because it does not need to.

You are instructed to roll for the charge, "You then make a charge roll for your unit by rolling 2D6" (Charge phase rules) Then you move your models if they rolled high enough. "This is the maximum number of inches each model in the charging unit can now be moved if they can make the charge move"

So you need to determine what the unit actually rolled too see if you get a distance "of less than 7[inches]" before you see if you can use Inexorable Persecution to count the roll as 7inches

If that's your interpretation that's totally fine and I can see it. I just honestly don't see that being supported by the rules citations you gave. You could easily interpret it as Inexorable Persecution coming into effect after you have rolled the dice for the charge roll, since it specifically refers to the roll in the rule, and then applying the modifiers. Since you already know whether the distance you rolled with the two D6 is below 7 or not.

DR, i havent seen any citiation which backs up your argument. Nothing in the rules says that IP is before or after modifiers. We dont know that. It needs a FAQ.

 p5freak wrote:
DR, i havent seen any citiation which backs up your argument. Nothing in the rules says that IP is before or after modifiers. We dont know that. It needs a FAQ.

Because you were not looking at my posts.


Specifically:

You are instructed to roll for the charge, "You then make a charge roll for your unit by rolling 2D6" (Charge phase rules) Then you move your models if they rolled high enough. "This is the maximum number of inches each model in the charging unit can now be moved if they can make the charge move"

So you need to determine what the unit actually rolled too see if you get a distance "of less than 7[inches]" before you see if you can use Inexorable Persecution to count the roll as 7 inches

Nothing refutes this logic.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DR, i havent seen any citiation which backs up your argument. Nothing in the rules says that IP is before or after modifiers. We dont know that. It needs a FAQ.

Because you were not looking at my posts.


Specifically:

You are instructed to roll for the charge, "You then make a charge roll for your unit by rolling 2D6" (Charge phase rules) Then you move your models if they rolled high enough. "This is the maximum number of inches each model in the charging unit can now be moved if they can make the charge move"

So you need to determine what the unit actually rolled too see if you get a distance "of less than 7[inches]" before you see if you can use Inexorable Persecution to count the roll as 7 inches

Nothing refutes this logic.

Sure, but modifiers could very well be added after determening this, nothing in the citations you posted refutes that logic so we're at square one with two conflicting interpretations.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DR, i havent seen any citiation which backs up your argument. Nothing in the rules says that IP is before or after modifiers. We dont know that. It needs a FAQ.

Because you were not looking at my posts.

I did look at your posts. Nothing supports your interpretation.

Tiberias wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DR, i havent seen any citiation which backs up your argument. Nothing in the rules says that IP is before or after modifiers. We dont know that. It needs a FAQ.

Because you were not looking at my posts.


Specifically:

You are instructed to roll for the charge, "You then make a charge roll for your unit by rolling 2D6" (Charge phase rules) Then you move your models if they rolled high enough. "This is the maximum number of inches each model in the charging unit can now be moved if they can make the charge move"

So you need to determine what the unit actually rolled too see if you get a distance "of less than 7[inches]" before you see if you can use Inexorable Persecution to count the roll as 7 inches

Nothing refutes this logic.

Sure, but modifiers could very well be added after determening this, nothing in the citations you posted refutes that logic so we're at square one with two conflicting interpretations.

No they can not, because adding modifiers is something that is done to determine the "maximum number of inches each model in the charging unit can now be moved"

Without modifiers, you have a unmodified roll, and we know that modifiers (if any) apply to a dice roll.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DR, i havent seen any citiation which backs up your argument. Nothing in the rules says that IP is before or after modifiers. We dont know that. It needs a FAQ.

Because you were not looking at my posts.

I did look at your posts. Nothing supports your interpretation.

Then you did not read and/or understand what I wrote.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DR, i havent seen any citiation which backs up your argument. Nothing in the rules says that IP is before or after modifiers. We dont know that. It needs a FAQ.

Because you were not looking at my posts.

I did look at your posts. Nothing supports your interpretation.

"All modifiers (if any) to a dice roll are cumulative..." tells you that the modifiers affect the dice roll, which is what we use to determine the total distance in a charge. We haven't actually got a complete charge distance until we've added all the modifiers to the roll.

I can already see this is turning into another classic YMDC p5 thread though, so I guess we'll just let this one run for another 2 pages before it gets locked.

Slipspace wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DR, i havent seen any citiation which backs up your argument. Nothing in the rules says that IP is before or after modifiers. We dont know that. It needs a FAQ.

Because you were not looking at my posts.

I did look at your posts. Nothing supports your interpretation.

"All modifiers (if any) to a dice roll are cumulative..." tells you that the modifiers affect the dice roll, which is what we use to determine the total distance in a charge. We haven't actually got a complete charge distance until we've added all the modifiers to the roll.

I can already see this is turning into another classic YMDC p5 thread though, so I guess we'll just let this one run for another 2 pages before it gets locked.

Huh? Your citation only says they are cumulative as in if you have multiple modifiers, they are added (or subtracted if you get a -x to charge). It says nothing about when Inexorable Persecution comes into effect. Since that rule specifically refers to the charge roll, it could very well mean that the "no less than 7" refers to the value of the two D6 rolled, modifiers added after that determination.

Tiberias wrote:

Spoiler:

Slipspace wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DR, i havent seen any citiation which backs up your argument. Nothing in the rules says that IP is before or after modifiers. We dont know that. It needs a FAQ.

Because you were not looking at my posts.

I did look at your posts. Nothing supports your interpretation.

"All modifiers (if any) to a dice roll are cumulative..." tells you that the modifiers affect the dice roll, which is what we use to determine the total distance in a charge. We haven't actually got a complete charge distance until we've added all the modifiers to the roll.

I can already see this is turning into another classic YMDC p5 thread though, so I guess we'll just let this one run for another 2 pages before it gets locked.

Huh? Your citation only says they are cumulative as in if you have multiple modifiers, they are added (or subtracted if you get a -x to charge). It says nothing about when Inexorable Persecution comes into effect. Since that rule specifically refers to the charge roll, it could very well mean that the "no less than 7" refers to the value of the two D6 rolled, modifiers added after that determination.

Without the modifiers added you do not know if the roll is less than 7 inches...

That is why you add modifiers first.

You are instructed to roll for the charge, "You then make a charge roll for your unit by rolling 2D6" (Charge phase rules) Then you move your models if they rolled high enough. "This is the maximum number of inches each model in the charging unit can now be moved if they can make the charge move"

So you need to determine what the unit actually rolled too see if you get a distance "of less than 7[inches]" before you see if you can use Inexorable Persecution to count the roll as 7 inches

Nothing refutes this logic.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Without the modifiers added you do not know if the roll is less than 7 inches...

I dont know about you, but when i roll a 6 i very well know that that is less than 7.

My reading is that modifiers are applied, then the 7" rule.

Each time a charge roll is made for this model, any distances of less than 7" count as 7".

The fact that it say "any distances of less than 7"..." rather than "any roll of less than 7..." makes this clear. Charge distance is determined by rolling 2d6 and as with all rolls, modifiers are applied to determine the distance in inches.

In order to apply Inexorable Precision, the charge distance in inches needs to be determined, the only way to do this is to apply modifiers to the dice roll and see if a charge distance of 7 or more inches is achieved. If the charge distance is under 7", Inexorable Precision is applied.

As above. Your charge distance (which is what we're measuring) is determined by taking the roll and dealing with any modifiers.

IP is a modifier
You dint know the distance in a formal sense until after modifiers are added. You're not allowed to peak

Right since this seems to be the majority, I'll go with the ruling that it the ability applies after adding modifiers.

Thanks for all the answers.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

IP is a modifier

Citation please. There is absolutely nothing in the modifier rules that says treating X as Y is a modifier.

I was getting the modifier and ip the wrong way round.

IP is worked out after modifiers, because your charge distance isn't known until after any modifiers are applied.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Without the modifiers added you do not know if the roll is less than 7 inches...

I dont know about you, but when i roll a 6 i very well know that that is less than 7.

No, you did not roll a 6. You rolled something that needs modifiers added to it to get the final number. You really do not know what you rolled until modifiers are added.

Until modifiers are added the unmodified roll is meaningless as far as the 40K game is concerned.

But I am done dealing with your posts that ignore logic, so please try to think about the ruleset, and not automatically be contrary for no real reason.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Without the modifiers added you do not know if the roll is less than 7 inches...

I dont know about you, but when i roll a 6 i very well know that that is less than 7.

No, you did not roll a 6. You rolled something that needs modifiers added to it to get the final number. You really do not know what you rolled until modifiers are added.

When i roll a 6 i did not roll a 6 ? Really ? I dont know the result yet, but i very well know what i have rolled.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Until modifiers are added the unmodified roll is meaningless as far as the 40K game is concerned.

Really ? Unmodified rolls are meaningless ? Ever heard of rules that hits or wounds fail on unmodified rolls of 1-3 ? Or rules that happen when an unmodified 6 is rolled ? Read the rules dude.

 p5freak wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Without the modifiers added you do not know if the roll is less than 7 inches...

I dont know about you, but when i roll a 6 i very well know that that is less than 7.

No, you did not roll a 6. You rolled something that needs modifiers added to it to get the final number. You really do not know what you rolled until modifiers are added.

When i roll a 6 i did not roll a 6 ? Really ? I dont know the result yet, but i very well know what i have rolled.

Knowing the numbers on the dice after they are rolled does not mean you know what you rolled for charge range, if there are modifiers to that roll, as far as the game is concerned. You do realize that right?

Just like If you have a 3+ Ballistic skill and you roll a 3 on the die, when you also have a -1 to hit, you know you rolled a 3, but as far as the game is concerned (and that is really what we are talking about) you did not roll a 3, because you have a -1, you rolled a 2, even though the die shows a 3...

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Until modifiers are added the unmodified roll is meaningless as far as the 40K game is concerned.

Really ? Unmodified rolls are meaningless ? Ever heard of rules that hits or wounds fail on unmodified rolls of 1-3 ? Or rules that happen when an unmodified 6 is rolled ? Read the rules dude.

Way to ignore the context of what I was saying...

You realize I was not talking about "rules that hits or wounds fail on unmodified rolls of 1-3" or "rules that happen when an unmodified 6 is rolled" right?

It does not seem like you understand the discussion, so why participate in it?

The result of a roll includes modifiers. No FAQ required, it’s how the rules work.

A +1 modifier to a charge roll resulting in 6” total (total 5 on 2D6 +1) is the result of the dice roll. 6” is less than 7”, so counts as 7” for the purposes of the OP’s rules question. You don’t get to up it to 7” then apply a modifier, it would need to call that out to function that way.

No FAQ needed as this is simply how all dice roll results work unless otherwise specified.



The daft side discussion p5 has started is irrelevant to the OP’s question.

We dont know if IP comes before modifiers or not. IP itself is not a modifier.

You roll 2d6+1 for your charge.

What is your charge distance, if the dice come up 3 and 2?

 JNAProductions wrote:
You roll 2d6+1 for your charge.

What is your charge distance, if the dice come up 3 and 2?

Could be 8 or 6.

 p5freak wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You roll 2d6+1 for your charge.

What is your charge distance, if the dice come up 3 and 2?

Could be 8 or 6.

8? False, the distance would be 6 (because 5+1 = 6)

 p5freak wrote:
We dont know if IP comes before modifiers or not. IP itself is not a modifier.

We know IP comes after you find out your charge distance, Charge distance includes modifiers. As Johnny said The result of a roll includes modifiers. No FAQ required, it’s how the rules work.

What you posted is not correct.