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The new keeper of secrets has some strange abilities. It says "...that model suffers....." or ".....that model makes a melee attack.......". This means that if that model dies those abilties have no effect, because that model is no longer in play. I feel like it should says "...that models unit....", but it doesnt. Is this an error, or intentional ? There arent many multi wound units which have models with more than 4 wounds. It would also require to roll for that model seperately, which feels odd.

Ritual knife
At the end of the Fight phase, you can select one enemy model within 3" of the bearer that lost any wounds during that phase as a result of an attack by the bearer. Roll one D6: on a 2+, that model suffers D3 mortal wounds.

Witstealer sword Melee Melee +2 -3 3
Each time an enemy model loses any wounds as a result of an attack made with this weapon, until the end of the battle, each time that model makes a melee attack, subtract 1 from that attack's wound roll.

Silverstrike(Relic) Melee Melee +3 -3 3
Each time an enemy model loses any wounds as a result of an attack made with this weapon, until the end of the battle, each time that model makes a melee attack, subtract 1 from that attack's hit roll and wound roll.

Character killer apparently.

The rules work as written here.

The book is out, what, today? Don’t sweat it until the FAQ. For now it works fine on Characters, vehicles, monsters etc.

It falls down on applying MW to e.g. a unit of Tyranid Zoanthropes as there are no rules for a “model” suffering MW. MW inherently ‘spill over’. But this is quite explicit so works as written for now, in lieu of a clarification later to make it for the core rules better.

If you look at all the fluff, these are character killers. Think talon of Horus.

Seems to be working as intended.

JohnnyHell wrote:
It falls down on applying MW to e.g. a unit of Tyranid Zoanthropes as there are no rules for a “model” suffering MW. MW inherently ‘spill over’. But this is quite explicit so works as written for now, in lieu of a clarification later to make it for the core rules better.

Do MW still spill over when the rules explicitly say that only that model suffers MW ?

 p5freak wrote:

JohnnyHell wrote:
It falls down on applying MW to e.g. a unit of Tyranid Zoanthropes as there are no rules for a “model” suffering MW. MW inherently ‘spill over’. But this is quite explicit so works as written for now, in lieu of a clarification later to make it for the core rules better.

Do MW still spill over when the rules explicitly say that only that model suffers MW ?

What rules explicitly say that only a specific model suffers MW, and not a unit?

It really doesn't matter though, because the rules for MW's say that "excess damage from mortal wounds is not lost. Instead, keep allocating damage to another model in the target unit until either all the damage has been allocated or the target unit is destroyed."

So of course MW spill over, the rules for MW's tells you that they do.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

JohnnyHell wrote:
It falls down on applying MW to e.g. a unit of Tyranid Zoanthropes as there are no rules for a “model” suffering MW. MW inherently ‘spill over’. But this is quite explicit so works as written for now, in lieu of a clarification later to make it for the core rules better.

Do MW still spill over when the rules explicitly say that only that model suffers MW ?

What rules explicitly say that only a specific model suffers MW, and not a unit?

Ritual knife, which i have quoted here. Its specifically says that model suffers D3 mortal wounds. What about special rule overrides core rule ?

 DeathReaper wrote:

It really doesn't matter though, because the rules for MW's say that "excess damage from mortal wounds is not lost. Instead, keep allocating damage to another model in the target unit until either all the damage has been allocated or the target unit is destroyed."

So of course MW spill over, the rules for MW's tells you that they do.

Except the target was not the unit, it was a model.

MORTAL WOUNDS
Some attacks inflict mortal wounds – these are so powerful that no armour or force field can withstand their fury. Each mortal wound inflicts 1 point of damage on the target unit, and they are always applied one at a time.

Okay, so the Ritual knife lets you select a model to do MW's to at the end of the Fight phase (This is different than selecting a target, aka targeting). If that model is in a unit, then the MW rules say "excess damage from mortal wounds is not lost. Instead, keep allocating damage to another model in the target unit until either all the damage has been allocated or the target unit is destroyed."

So if the model selected dies, then "excess damage from mortal wounds is not lost" and you follow the MW rules.

You can follow both rules without incident.

You cannot follow the MW core rules because the target was not a unit, it was a model. Specific rule overrides core rule.

MORTAL WOUNDS
Some attacks inflict mortal wounds – these are so powerful that no armour or force field can withstand their fury. Each mortal wound inflicts 1 point of damage on the target unit, and they are always applied one at a time.

Ritual knife
At the end of the Fight phase, you can select one enemy model within 3" of the bearer that lost any wounds during that phase as a result of an attack by the bearer. Roll one D6: on a 2+, that model suffers D3 mortal wounds.

 p5freak wrote:
You cannot follow the MW core rules because the target was not a unit, it was a model. Specific rule overrides core rule.

MORTAL WOUNDS
Some attacks inflict mortal wounds – these are so powerful that no armour or force field can withstand their fury. Each mortal wound inflicts 1 point of damage on the target unit, and they are always applied one at a time.

Ritual knife
At the end of the Fight phase, you can select one enemy model within 3" of the bearer that lost any wounds during that phase as a result of an attack by the bearer. Roll one D6: on a 2+, that model suffers D3 mortal wounds.

False, you follow what the MW rules say because the model with the Ritual knife used it to attack a unit in the fight phase.

The rules work just fine.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
You cannot follow the MW core rules because the target was not a unit, it was a model. Specific rule overrides core rule.

MORTAL WOUNDS
Some attacks inflict mortal wounds – these are so powerful that no armour or force field can withstand their fury. Each mortal wound inflicts 1 point of damage on the target unit, and they are always applied one at a time.

Ritual knife
At the end of the Fight phase, you can select one enemy model within 3" of the bearer that lost any wounds during that phase as a result of an attack by the bearer. Roll one D6: on a 2+, that model suffers D3 mortal wounds.

False, you follow what the MW rules say because the model with the Ritual knife used it to attack a unit in the fight phase.

The rules work just fine.

Agreed. Both rules work in conjunction. So the MW have to go to the model wounded by the Ritual Knife (though they'd have to anyway in most circumstances due to general wound allocation rules). The basic MW rules tell us those wounds can spill over, so they do. The affected model's unit is still the "target unit" as mentioned in the MW rules.

The rules are working exactly as written and intended.

These knife is designed to finish off wounded models in opposing units, there are lots of units of things with 4W, -1 damage, FNP or other rules to keep them alive. Also good at taking out a lucky character that made alot of their saves.

The swords are designed to help against other big monsters, the keeper is super fast so will usually charge in but is unlikely to get the kill against opposition Bloodthirsters/Avatars/Primarchs/Anything with a phase cap - so the sword is actually a decent defensive tool that reduces the targets ability to hit back - stealing their wits if you will :-)