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Daemons got a new save. Here is the rule.

DAEMONIC INVULNERABILITY
Instead of a normal Save characteristic, each LEGIONES DAEMONICA datasheet has a Daemonic Save characteristic. This characteristic has 2 values. The first characteristic is used when a melee attack is allocated to that model, while the second characteristic is used when a ranged attack is allocated to that model. In either case, the saving throw cannot be modified in any way.

The saving throw cannot be modified in any way, am i right in thinking that its possible that the characteristic can be modified ?

I'd say yes the save itself can be modified, but presumably you'll find nothing that doesn't explicitly specify "armour save" or "invulnerable save" so can't be applied to a daemonic save in any case.

Have you come across something?

 obsidianaura wrote:
Have you come across something?

Yeah, maybe we can skip the theoreticals here. Is there a specific interaction you want to discuss?

The intention is clear. The numbers you have to roll never change. No word games will change this.

 p5freak wrote:
Daemons got a new save. Here is the rule.

DAEMONIC INVULNERABILITY
Instead of a normal Save characteristic, each LEGIONES DAEMONICA datasheet has a Daemonic Save characteristic. This characteristic has 2 values. The first characteristic is used when a melee attack is allocated to that model, while the second characteristic is used when a ranged attack is allocated to that model. In either case, the saving throw cannot be modified in any way.

The saving throw cannot be modified in any way, am i right in thinking that its possible that the characteristic can be modified ?

Yes, but it would have to explicitly modify the Daemonic Save characteristic.

What about something like Jinx?

SaganGree wrote:
What about something like Jinx?

I believe Jinx now only works on armor.

Jinx (Malediction): Select one enemy unit within 18" of this PSYKER. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, worsen the Save characteristic of models in that unit by 1 (to a maximum of 6+).

It specifies Save characteristic, not Daemon Save Characteristic, so by RAW it wouldn't do anything.
And I think that's RAI too-given it doesn't' affect normal invuln saves.

Note that the wording of the rule refers to the Daemonic Saving throw as a saving throw. But, how can anyone read "In either case, the saving throw cannot be modified in any way." And think that it could be modified?

Jinx would have no effect. Nothing would have any effect. It literally says it cannot be modified.

 JNAProductions wrote:

SaganGree wrote:
What about something like Jinx?

I believe Jinx now only works on armor.

Jinx (Malediction): Select one enemy unit within 18" of this PSYKER. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, worsen the Save characteristic of models in that unit by 1 (to a maximum of 6+).

It specifies Save characteristic, not Daemon Save Characteristic, so by RAW it wouldn't do anything.
And I think that's RAI too-given it doesn't' affect normal invuln saves.

All Daemon Save Characteristics are Save Characteristics, but not all Save Characteristics are Daemon Save Characteristics

There is no such thing as an armor save. There are "Saving Throws" and "Invulnerable Saves." If you look at the Core Rules you will see that there is no such thing as an armor save. Likewise, if you look at the Datasheets, there is "Sv" which is "Saving Throw" and then, as a special rule, some units also have "invulnerable save."

Jinx does not affect Invulnerable saves because it says "Save characteristic." Invulnerable saves are not the "Save" characteristic. The "Save" characteristic is the "Sv" on the Datasheet. Invulnerable saves are special rules added to the unit.

Iggy88 wrote:
There is no such thing as an armor save.

That's not quite true though.

P. 7 in the PDF rules under Datasheets says "Save (Sv): This indicates the protection a model’s armour gives."

So save = armour

They just use shorthand and say save instead of saying armor save.

Also Armour Penetration is literally described as "How good the weapon’s attacks are at getting through armour." This would make no sense if the save was not armour based.

Its GW, give it a few book issues and you will have something that specifically modifies Daemonic Saves

then something that overrides that

then something that overrides that

until then GWs rule writing isn't tight enough to worry about semantics

EviscerationPlague wrote:

All Daemon Save Characteristics are Save Characteristics, but not all Save Characteristics are Daemon Save Characteristics

RULES TERMS GLOSSARY
This glossary contains a number of terms that you will encounter within Core Book and in supplementary products, such as Codexes. These are intended to provide precise definitions to aid in resolving some of the more complex rules interactions that may arise, and players should feel under no onus to memorise this list.

Armour saving throw: An armour saving throw is a saving throw made using a model’s Save characteristic.

So, according to you, the daemonic save characteristic is an armour saving throw ?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Iggy88 wrote:
There is no such thing as an armor save.

That's not quite true though.

P. 7 in the PDF rules under Datasheets says "Save (Sv): This indicates the protection a model’s armour gives."

So save = armour

They just use shorthand and say save instead of saying armor save.

Also Armour Penetration is literally described as "How good the weapon’s attacks are at getting through armour." This would make no sense if the save was not armour based.

Yes, the Save characteristic represents the units armor, but there is no rule that ever mentions armor saves. There are no armor saves. There is the Save characteristic, seen on datasheets as “Sv.” No where in the rules is anything referred to as an armor save. “Save” is a characteristic like Strength, Toughness, Weapon Skill, etc.

Jinx affects the Save characteristic, as is described by the rule. It does not affect invulnerable saves because invulnerable saves are a sub-category of saving throws. Likewise, the new daemonic saving throw is a sub-category of saving throws.

You’re mixing descriptions with rules.

It’s also unnecessary since the daemonic saving throw explicitly states it cannot be modified.

In the Shooting Phase section of the Core Rules it explains what a Saving Throw is.

Y’all are looking for an explanation on something that doesn’t need an explanation. The rule could not be more explicitly clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You guys keep using this term “armor save” but just like cover saves, that is an outdated term. This edition does not have armor saves.

Iggy88 wrote:
Yes, the Save characteristic represents the units armor, but there is no rule that ever mentions armor saves.

Well that is not true.
"Armour saving throw: An armour saving throw is a saving throw made using a model’s Save characteristic." - P. 364 BRB

There are no armor saves.

But there are. P. 364 as above.

There is the Save characteristic, seen on datasheets as “Sv.” No where in the rules is anything referred to as an armor save.

There is the Save characteristic, but your next part is incorrect, P. 364 in the BRB refers to armor save.

You’re mixing descriptions with rules.

I assure you, I am not. See P. 364 BRB

In the Shooting Phase section of the Core Rules it explains what a Saving Throw is.

Yes, and the Rules terms glossary defines "armour saving throw"

You guys keep using this term “armor save” but just like cover saves, that is an outdated term. This edition does not have armor saves.

False, as above, P. 364 defines that save characteristic = armour saving throw

So, a daemon save characteristic is a save characteristic, therefore it is modified by jinx. It modifies the characteristic, but not the saving throw (the dice roll) itself, which is not possible. Did i get this right ?

 p5freak wrote:
So, a daemon save characteristic is a save characteristic, therefore it is modified by jinx. It modifies the characteristic, but not the saving throw (the dice roll) itself, which is not possible. Did i get this right ?

Except it cant be modified.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
So, a daemon save characteristic is a save characteristic, therefore it is modified by jinx. It modifies the characteristic, but not the saving throw (the dice roll) itself, which is not possible. Did i get this right ?

Except it cant be modified.

Saving throw =/= save characteristic. One is written on the dataheet, the other is the dice roll.

Jinx worsens the save characteristic. It doesnt modify the saving throw, which is not possible.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
So, a daemon save characteristic is a save characteristic, therefore it is modified by jinx. It modifies the characteristic, but not the saving throw (the dice roll) itself, which is not possible. Did i get this right ?

Except it cant be modified.

Saving throw =/= save characteristic. One is written on the dataheet, the other is the dice roll.

Jinx worsens the save characteristic. It doesnt modify the saving throw, which is not possible.

It worsens the save characteristic, but it does not worsen the Daemonic Save characteristic.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
So, a daemon save characteristic is a save characteristic, therefore it is modified by jinx. It modifies the characteristic, but not the saving throw (the dice roll) itself, which is not possible. Did i get this right ?

Except it cant be modified.

Saving throw =/= save characteristic. One is written on the dataheet, the other is the dice roll.

Jinx worsens the save characteristic. It doesnt modify the saving throw, which is not possible.

It worsens the save characteristic, but it does not worsen the Daemonic Save characteristic.

It was said in this thread that a daemon save characteristic is a save characteristic. Not by me, btw. Its a saving throw, so its logical that its a save characteristic.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
So, a daemon save characteristic is a save characteristic, therefore it is modified by jinx. It modifies the characteristic, but not the saving throw (the dice roll) itself, which is not possible. Did i get this right ?

Except it cant be modified.

Saving throw =/= save characteristic. One is written on the dataheet, the other is the dice roll.

Jinx worsens the save characteristic. It doesnt modify the saving throw, which is not possible.

It worsens the save characteristic, but it does not worsen the Daemonic Save characteristic.

It was said in this thread that a daemon save characteristic is a save characteristic. Not by me, btw. Its a saving throw, so its logical that its a save characteristic.

Do you have proof of that? or just some person's uncited post?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Do you have proof of that? or just some person's uncited post?

Nobody said something against it. And, as i said, if a daemon save characteristic is a saving throw, it sounds logical to me that its a save characteristic, otherwise it would be a daemon saving throw, which it is not.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Do you have proof of that? or just some person's uncited post?

Nobody said something against it. And, as i said, if a daemon save characteristic is a saving throw, it sounds logical to me that its a save characteristic, otherwise it would be a daemon saving throw, which it is not.

"Nobody said something against it." is like saying "It doesn't say I can't" which is automatically false, because of the permissive ruleset.

There needs to be a rule saying that a daemon save characteristic is the same thing as an armour saving throw for that to be true.

Is there any citation that equates them?

P.S. it quite literally says "Instead of a normal Save characteristic..." which means they are not the same thing.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
So, a daemon save characteristic is a save characteristic, therefore it is modified by jinx. It modifies the characteristic, but not the saving throw (the dice roll) itself, which is not possible. Did i get this right ?

Except it cant be modified.

Saving throw =/= save characteristic. One is written on the dataheet, the other is the dice roll.

Jinx worsens the save characteristic. It doesnt modify the saving throw, which is not possible.

It worsens the save characteristic, but it does not worsen the Daemonic Save characteristic.

It was said in this thread that a daemon save characteristic is a save characteristic. Not by me, btw. Its a saving throw, so its logical that its a save characteristic.

Do you have proof of that? or just some person's uncited post?

Literally the OP:

Instead of a normal Save characteristic, each LEGIONES DAEMONICA datasheet has a Daemonic Save characteristic. This characteristic has 2 values. The first characteristic is used when a melee attack is allocated to that model, while the second characteristic is used when a ranged attack is allocated to that model. In either case, the saving throw cannot be modified in any way.

It specifies that it isn't a "normal save characteristic", but Jinx does not say it only affects normal save characteristics. It affects the save characteristic of the target unit. Which is the daemonic save characteristic, as unless that is a save characteristic, it cannot be used to make saving throws unless it is an invulnerable save.

The fact that it says it has a daemonic save characteristic instead of a normal save characteristic actually supports the argument that jinx works. If the daemonic save characteristic does not fall under the umbrella of save characteristic, and therefore be affected by jinx, there would be no need to specify that it has daemonic save characteristic instead of a normal save characteristic in the rule. If a daemonic save characteristic is not a save characteristic, it would say flat out say it has it instead of a save characteristic. By including normal, it means that the daemonic save characteristic is a special class of save characteristic, but still a save characteristic.

This is just typical GW rules incompetence. They should have just given the daemons a normal save characteristic and then slapped on an army wide special rule that saving throws of daemonic units ignore all saving throw modifiers. Then had a special rule for each unit about how their save characteristic is modified by being in melee combat. Exact same result but doesn't try and change the core building blocks of characteristics by creating some special fringe case.

Jinx affects the Save characteristic.

Units with DAEMONIC INVULNERABILITY do not have a Save characteristic, they have a Daemonic Save characteristic. If they are the same thing, you need to provide a citation saying they are the same thing.

So do you have a citation?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Jinx affects the Save characteristic.

Units with DAEMONIC INVULNERABILITY do not have a Save characteristic, they have a Daemonic Save characteristic. If they are the same thing, you need to provide a citation saying they are the same thing.

So do you have a citation?

Okay, so lets say that the Daemonic Save Characteristic is not a save characteristic.

Point me to where in the rules you are allowed to make a saving throw with anything but a save characteristic or an invulnerable save. The rules for saving throws say that you use the save characteristic of the model. Nothing in the daemonic save characteristic actually explicitly overrides that. It says you use one of two values, so those values must be save characteristics, with the daemonic save characteristic being the special class container that holds two Save Characteristics.

Since the actual numerical values must be save characteristics, or else they cannot be used to make saving throws, as per the rules for saving throws, Jinx must apply to them.

The rules for the DSv state when you use, and which of the two values you pick, the DSv.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rules for the DSv state when you use, and which of the two values you pick, the DSv.

So where in the steps for resolving attacks does it tell you to use your daemonic save characteristic?

DAEMONIC INVULNERABILITY
Instead of a normal Save characteristic, each LEGIONES DAEMONICA datasheet has a Daemonic Save characteristic. This characteristic has 2 values. The first characteristic is used when a melee attack is allocated to that model, while the second characteristic is used when a ranged attack is allocated to that model. In either case, the saving throw cannot be modified in any way.

In typical GW shoddy rules writing fashion, GW heavily implies you may use the Demonic Save characteristic when making a Saving Throw but fails to actual use the specific words to make that permission explicit.

So you can say that GW doesn't give explicit permission to use a Daemonic Save Characteristic for a Saving Throw. However doing so, you have to willfully ignore the implications of the Daemonic Invulnerability rule and state that the rule doesn't actually do anything.

Regardless, a Daemonic Save characteristic is not a Save characteristics, it is it's own thing just like an Invulnerable Save isn't a Save characteristic.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rules for the DSv state when you use, and which of the two values you pick, the DSv.

So where in the steps for resolving attacks does it tell you to use your daemonic save characteristic?

It doesn't, but specific rules in the DAEMONIC INVULNERABILITY rule tell you to use the Daemonic Save characteristic, because units with DAEMONIC INVULNERABILITY have something called a Daemonic Save characteristic Instead of a normal Save characteristic...

This tells us that you use the Daemonic Save characteristic instead of the Save characteristic.