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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ok so in the context of the conversation a 40k moderate is a faction that doesn't hold xenocide as one of its core ideals... :p

So chaos, necrons, imperium and nids all have conscious or not, xenocidal tendencies/beliefs/philosophies.

With the reemergence of the squats, we now have one more 'not overtly out to annihilate everyone else' faction, alongside the tau, all eldar factions (yeah the dark eldar NEED everyone to keep existing or they lose their food supply) and, one could ARGUE, Guilliman (although the era he came from was pretty xenocidal, but then he did accept eldar help in resurrecting him so....).


With the split of the imperium weakening its crusadecentric approach to a more defensive one, do you reckon we'll see them consciously shift to a less xenocidal footing?

The Squats and Tau are already streets ahead and have been trading for a while.

   
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The Eldar are not moderate. At all.

One could argue the Craftworlders are bigger villains than Commorite.

A Commorite will do a slave raid for fun, and for sustenance. And the deaths involved can provide pain related sustenance for large numbers of Commorites.

A Craftworld will encourage the death of tens, hundreds, thousands, millions, even billions if the act of doing so saves a single Eldar life.

Both are evil for doing so. But in terms of the life to death equation? The Craftworld is objectively doing it the really awful way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for The Squats? If your world has something they want? They’ll take it. Including using planet sized mining ships to scoff it wholesale. Whether or not the populace relocated.

That’s….not moderate either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/28 08:21:15


   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Orks don't really want to wipe out other races either. If they did so there'd be nobody to have good fights with and that would be boring. Orks just want to have big tough fights and win.


Most races are quite selfish and will have few to new qualms about wiping out other individual races and worlds and such. The Imperium is simply highly expansionist and Xenophobic to the point where they will wipe out other races simply because they can without exploring other options (alliances, slavery, economic domination etc...).

Races like Eldar might well wipe out other races, but they will also use them and manipulate them for their own ends. They aren't Xenophobic at their core, they are simply selfish.



Even Tau have a major selfish side, though they are the most willing to directly ally and use other races within their greater whole. But they would still wipe out others without pause if it serves the interests of the Greater Good.


Tyranids aren't Xenophobic, they are simply hunting prey. Prey just happens to be EVERYTHING

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The T'au and Leagues are only moderate in that they'll try a bit of diplomacy first. The T'au also only do it to prevent deaths among their own kind as well, so it's still based on self preservation rather than securing a lasting peace with their enemies.
   
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I’ll make my usual argument in terms of malevolent intent.

And that’s….Orks and Tyranids are the only beings that aren’t objectively evil or malevolent.

Both are simply fulfilling their instinctual urges.

Sure, it still sucks when they decide your next for beating up and/or consuming. But their life perspective is just completely alien.

Tyranids are driven and part of the hive mind. Consume, improve, reproduce, survive. They’re evolution run rampant.

Orks? Every Greenskin whole heartedly believes and accepts Might Makes Right, and that Fighting Is The Best Way To Determine Right.

Orks don’t attack planets and shipping for evil. They’re compelled by their instinct to do that. And like when we humans fulfil certain genetic imperatives we receive lovely pleasure chemicals from Mr Brain? So do Orks when crumpin’ stuff.

Again, it’s cold comfort to those on the receiving end, but there’s just a completely different morality in play here.

Heck, based on that I’d argue Eldar are the most malevolent. They accept other species as sentient, but consider them inherently lesser life forms to be consumed, slaughtered, betrayed etc on a whim if the end result brings even the merest sliver of benefit to the Eldar.

   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Necrons are perhaps the most malevolent. They accept it all and yet still just want to watch the Galaxy burn to suit their own personal whims. Even before they lost their bodies and souls they set the Galaxy ablaze in war.


Eldar and the Imperium are basically the same. Both consider themselves the best and most pure and everything else either serves their selfish interests or is burned. Eldar are perhaps less so than the Imperium as the Eldar are at least willing to consider letting other races live, whilst the Imperium, if following its own doctrines to the letter, will simply burn worlds with Xenos simply because the Xenos exist. No matter their level of technology or social development or anything. Find alien - burn alien.

Indeed on that thought the Imperium could even be argued to be the second worst after the Necrons.



Eldar, Tau, orks and now the Leagues are at least tolerant of other species existing and living. Even allowing other species to thrive in their own way/within limits. Cause what's better than a thriving alien race that you can go have a really good scrap with!


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I described my definitions in the first post, centring on xenocide.

The Eldar are not xenocidal, they are utilitarian with their own lives held first. Virtually all factions hold their own lives above all others (excepting Orks and Tyranids).

As outlined, in this context "40k" moderate is a faction that tolerates the existence of others.


The language we're tiptoeing around is genocidal racism or specisim. The active hatred of and need to destroy others specifically because of their race/species, and no other reason.

The argument for Tyranids not to be 'evil ', is pretty irrelevant in this context, as their actions are intrinsically xenocidal. Their existence requires xenocide and thus they are xenocidal. Whether you are considered culpable for your actions or not doesn't change the outcome of them.

And thus, as described in the op, there are now quite a few factions that do not actively wish death on other factions for existing.

I am curious if this will continue and tone down the imperium as a result


   
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 Hellebore wrote:
I described my definitions in the first post, centring on xenocide.

Your definitions aren't the only ones though and it's a very basic determination at that. The Commorite Aeldari aren't a moderate people, they literally use torture and slaughter to extend their lives and gain pleasure. The Imperium might also preach "Suffer not the Alien to live" but you should know by now that it is a society ruled by contradictions. The Imperium has multiple minor Xenos races that were granted clemency for a variety of reasons living within its borders and there are multiple Mutant strains of humans that are both tolerated and "accepted" within Imperial society.

The argument for Tyranids not to be 'evil ', is pretty irrelevant in this context, as their actions are intrinsically xenocidal. Their existence requires xenocide and thus they are xenocidal. Whether you are considered culpable for your actions or not doesn't change the outcome of them.

It absolutely does. Is a shark evil if it attacks a swimmer that was in its hunting ground? No, because it's following its natural imperative to hunt so it can eat and survive. Is a swarm of locusts evil because it consumed a farmer's crop? No, because the swarm is following its natural imperative to eat to survive. The exact same reasoning can be applied to the Tyranid race. Its biological need is to feed and grow. That need might present itself in different strategies but the end result is always the same. The Tyranid race literally doesn't have any other goal than to consume. On a technical definition, the race is committing Xenocide but it isn't a conscious choice so it isn't an evil act.

I am curious if this will continue and tone down the imperium as a result.

Considering GW has been hammering in the point about 40k having no "Good" factions and that the Imperium specifically is a horrendous monster that shouldn't be emulated, I doubt that.
   
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Tyranids are not evil, but they are almost a perfect example of invasive species.


Ergo a species moving into an ecosystem it has not evolved to be a part of. As a result there's no natural balancing system of prey-predator going on. The Tyranids are almost the perfect example. Fast breeding, highly varied food sources, high adaptability.

Thus meaning they can be totally out-of-sync with the regular concept of prey-predator relationships where each one influences the population of the other.


Tyranids have no natural predator and they've no balance with prey species count. They simply consume everything in the extreme. The only predator prey relationship that might be operating is on an inter-galactic scale for them. Ergo we are talking scales where you are looking at galaxies as food sources rather than looking at the species and materials within the galaxy

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 Gert wrote:

It absolutely does. Is a shark evil if it attacks a swimmer that was in its hunting ground? No, because it's following its natural imperative to hunt so it can eat and survive. Is a swarm of locusts evil because it consumed a farmer's crop? No, because the swarm is following its natural imperative to eat to survive. The exact same reasoning can be applied to the Tyranid race. Its biological need is to feed and grow. That need might present itself in different strategies but the end result is always the same. The Tyranid race literally doesn't have any other goal than to consume. On a technical definition, the race is committing Xenocide but it isn't a conscious choice so it isn't an evil act.


That's irrelevent. The OP's framework isn't based on ethics of virtue but on consequentialism. The Tyranids are ''evil'' because they are ''an evil''. We don't care about intent or choices in that context, only on the results. Though your argument about the Imperium is indeed interesting. The Imperium claims it wants to exterminate all xenos and mutant lifeforms, but it doesn't.
   
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epronovost wrote:
That's irrelevent. The OP's framework isn't based on ethics of virtue but on consequentialism. The Tyranids are ''evil'' because they are ''an evil''. We don't care about intent or choices in that context, only on the results. Though your argument about the Imperium is indeed interesting. The Imperium claims it wants to exterminate all xenos and mutant lifeforms, but it doesn't.

Consequentialism is a very flawed philosophical theory though and "the ends justify the means" is not a phrase that is used to describe acts of good. If a doctor found a cure for cancer but conducted invasive surgeries and dangerous experiments on children to find that cure, it doesn't mean the doctor was good.
The Tyranids are without a doubt a threat to the Milky Way but the race isn't evil because it lacks the capacity to make the choice. To the Imperium they are "evil" because they threaten humanity's dominance and right to rule the galaxy. The only difference between regular fauna and the Tyranids is that the latter has a greatly enhanced evolutionary cycle both biologically and intellectually.
As for the Imperium, it's been that way forever. "Hate the Mutant, unless it's an Ogryn, Ratling, Squat, or something that pretty much resembles a human. Oh and don't go about killing Navigators because they stop our massive empire from collapsing at the slightest problem."
   
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 Gert wrote:

Consequentialism is a very flawed philosophical theory though and "the ends justify the means" is not a phrase that is used to describe acts of good. If a doctor found a cure for cancer but conducted invasive surgeries and dangerous experiments on children to find that cure, it doesn't mean the doctor was good.


As is the ethic of virtue you seem to stick on despite it not being the framework of the discussion. After all, having good intentions doesn't mean you actually do good things either. You can harm, crush, oppress and kill all the while meaning well for those you harm, crush, oppress and kill. See the ''White man's burden'' as an example of this. Also the ends justify the means as nothing to do with consequentialism and is actually linked to utilitarianism.

The Tyranids are without a doubt a threat to the Milky Way but the race isn't evil because it lacks the capacity to make the choice


I disagree. The Tyranids are master of the evolutionary process. They are note ''naturally selected'', wild animals. They are bio-engineered on purpose. They could if it desired stop using conquest and destruction of others to insure their survival and growth. They could colonise, cooperate and live in symbiosis. They know how to achieve this since they can solve problems of warfare with great efficacy, curb and change instincts to suit their need. They can solve problems. they choose to consume and destroy to survive, they can change that. Even by ethics of virtue, the Tyranids don't go free. Individual organism like Hormagaunts sure, but the Hive Mind is conscious and sentient.
   
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epronovost wrote:
As is the ethic of virtue you seem to stick on despite it not being the framework of the discussion. After all, having good intentions doesn't mean you actually do good things either. You can harm, crush, oppress and kill all the while meaning well for those you harm, crush, oppress and kill. See the ''White man's burden'' as an example of this. Also the ends justify the means as nothing to do with consequentialism and is actually linked to utilitarianism.

The OP is classifying what does and does not make a "moderate" 40k race/faction by extremely thin margins and I'm arguing that if we're really going to have a discussion on the topic then those margins need to be examined in greater detail. It would be like deciding that anyone who has punched another person is immediately evil while ignoring the intentions or reasons for the act in the first place.
I also never said that having good intentions resolves people of their bad actions, I just said consequentialism is a bad marker for what we can define as evil. Just because I say X is bad doesn't mean I think Y is the bee's knees.

I disagree. The Tyranids are master of the evolutionary process. They are note ''naturally selected'', wild animals. They are bio-engineered on purpose. They could if it desired stop using conquest and destruction of others to insure their survival and growth. They could colonise, cooperate and live in symbiosis. They know how to achieve this since they can solve problems of warfare with great efficacy, curb and change instincts to suit their need. They can solve problems. they choose to consume and destroy to survive, they can change that. Even by ethics of virtue, the Tyranids don't go free. Individual organism like Hormagaunts sure, but the Hive Mind is conscious and sentient.

How do you know the Tyranid race didn't naturally evolve to the state it is in? It's theorised by certain in-universe sources that the Tyranids might be a bio-weapon but it's only a theory.
And have you got any proof that the Tyranids could just stop their eternal hunger? Having problem-solving skills or the ability to understand tactics doesn't mean their natural drive to feed is a choice because those skills are in service of that drive. Even the propagation of Genestealer Cults is in service of feeding the hunger by making the conquest stage of the process less arduous for a Hive tendril. A spider isn't evil because it weaves a web to catch its prey, it's just using the tools it has to enact its biological needs.
I'm arguing that the Tyranids aren't evil because as a species there is no choice for them.
   
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I think GW has just moved with the zeitgeist, pop culture is a lot more positive and moderate these days. 40K used to be grimdark to the touch, now I think you have to really dive into the lore to get it. Most promo work featuring imperial units show them being the humans fighting heroically against the non humans in cool armour. Even the SOB come off with a cool nun with a gun vibe rather than religious zealot that believes mostly in setting fire to people.

So it doesn’t surprise me that armies feel more moderate. I notice that with the LOV they stuck in some lore about how they will tear a planet in half to get at the minerals and ores inside, even if they are people still living on it but it feels a bit like tokenism to me.

But that’s the great thing about 40K just make it what you want to be in your head
   
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 Hellebore wrote:
Ok so in the context of the conversation a 40k moderate is a faction that doesn't hold xenocide as one of its core ideals... :p
...
With the split of the imperium weakening its crusadecentric approach to a more defensive one, do you reckon we'll see them consciously shift to a less xenocidal footing?

The Squats and Tau are already streets ahead and have been trading for a while.


Hellebore gave a definition of "moderate" for purposes of this discussion so that we don't have to type out the words, "Not completely intent on wiping out other species entirely," over and over. No one is defending any flavor of space elf or necrons as being nice guys or "moderate" in a real-world sense here. Anyone getting hung up on the definition is probably off-topic.

I doubt that the imperium will become significantly less xenocidal than they have been, but I do think that circumstances might conspire to make certain alliances tolerable more often. In the past, we've seen humans occassionally being willing to let eldar walk around on their space stations as long as they're not too loud about it. We've seen corrupt planetary governors pay drukhari protection rackets or even feed drukhari information so that the ships of their rivals can be attacked. And of course you have the occassional planet on the brink of destruction that's willing to let eldar or necrons or tau help out to avoid being eaten by tyranids or whatever. And then there are the various xenos mercenaries employed by humans, drukhari, etc.

What I'm getting at is that there are already plenty of humans willing to work with xenos under the right conditions. The biggest factor seems to be whether or not they feel they can get away with it. So post-Great Rift, I can see the breakdown in travel and communication causing more human factions to feel both desperate and unmonitored enough to work with xenos more frequently, but not because they're any less xenocidal than they were before. If that makes sense.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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 Gert wrote:

The OP is classifying what does and does not make a "moderate" 40k race/faction by extremely thin margins


Of course it's a thin margins. All factions of monstrous are monstrous by our moral standards and norms, but they are not all equally monstrous. Yes, the Dark Eldar literally feed of suffering and death, but they will not exterminate people completely nor try to do so unlike other factions. Since it can be said that all factions in 40K are at the very least insensitive to the suffering they cause in others and they pretty much all enjoy the suffering of their enemies the ''quantity'' of destruction they cause or wish to cause becomes a good demarcation point much more easily grasped and debated than it's ''quality''.

How do you know the Tyranid race didn't naturally evolve to the state it is in? It's theorised by certain in-universe sources that the Tyranids might be a bio-weapon but it's only a theory.
And have you got any proof that the Tyranids could just stop their eternal hunger? Having problem-solving skills or the ability to understand tactics doesn't mean their natural drive to feed is a choice because those skills are in service of that drive. Even the propagation of Genestealer Cults is in service of feeding the hunger by making the conquest stage of the process less arduous for a Hive tendril. A spider isn't evil because it weaves a web to catch its prey, it's just using the tools it has to enact its biological needs.
I'm arguing that the Tyranids aren't evil because as a species there is no choice for them.


That Tyranids naturally evolved or designed doesn't change the fact that now, they are no longer subject to the forces of natural selection. They are beyond that point and Tyranid organisms can be modified endlessly and purposefully by the Hive Mind to suit a particular need. Since the Hive Mind can alter and curb the most basic instincts of all Tyranid organisms as well as their biological functions, there is nothing that could stop them from destroying their reproductive drive (which they already do to some organism) or change their survival strategy. The Hive Mind know what's doing and why hence why it can strategize and plot. The Hive Mind is conscious and highly intelligent and adaptable. It does make choices. That it behaves amorally and brutally isn't a fatality since the Hive Mind is conscious and capable of endless, diverse, perfect and controlled adaptation and reflection.
   
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 Wyldhunt wrote:
 Hellebore wrote:
Ok so in the context of the conversation a 40k moderate is a faction that doesn't hold xenocide as one of its core ideals... :p
...
With the split of the imperium weakening its crusadecentric approach to a more defensive one, do you reckon we'll see them consciously shift to a less xenocidal footing?

The Squats and Tau are already streets ahead and have been trading for a while.


Hellebore gave a definition of "moderate" for purposes of this discussion so that we don't have to type out the words, "Not completely intent on wiping out other species entirely," over and over. No one is defending any flavor of space elf or necrons as being nice guys or "moderate" in a real-world sense here. Anyone getting hung up on the definition is probably off-topic.

I doubt that the imperium will become significantly less xenocidal than they have been, but I do think that circumstances might conspire to make certain alliances tolerable more often. In the past, we've seen humans occassionally being willing to let eldar walk around on their space stations as long as they're not too loud about it. We've seen corrupt planetary governors pay drukhari protection rackets or even feed drukhari information so that the ships of their rivals can be attacked. And of course you have the occassional planet on the brink of destruction that's willing to let eldar or necrons or tau help out to avoid being eaten by tyranids or whatever. And then there are the various xenos mercenaries employed by humans, drukhari, etc.

What I'm getting at is that there are already plenty of humans willing to work with xenos under the right conditions. The biggest factor seems to be whether or not they feel they can get away with it. So post-Great Rift, I can see the breakdown in travel and communication causing more human factions to feel both desperate and unmonitored enough to work with xenos more frequently, but not because they're any less xenocidal than they were before. If that makes sense.


Yeah there's been a lot of illegal imperial activity with aliens, but it's always been explicitly and knowingly illegal. The Pax Imperialis makes sure of that.

Will we see a loosening of the absolute hold on everyone and their ability to 'decriminialise' consorting with aliens?

It's funny. With the addition of the squats and the number of non xenocidal factions now present, the imperium is IMO starting to look (even) more ridiculous in its irrationality. We see that the oft used argument that the galaxy is so terrible that being xenocidal is necessary to be patently untrue, which further pushes the imperium to the 'dark' side of the 40k spectrum.

Regardless of the squats being 'dwarfs', they're still from human stock, so they're basically a human empire that has existed and flourished without the need to exterminate everyone else.

The fandom's gleeful acceptance of that conventional wisdom (everything is bad) to justify enjoying being a xenocidal hero starts looking a bit more strained.

   
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Well the Imperium is still the most successful living faction of all those currently around. In general they've shown that the whole crusade of humanity approach allowed them to expand dominance in a way no other faction has. Yes the Imperium has stalled, but that was due to internal civil war (driven by Chaos of course) rather than a fully outside invasion force.


So in general the Xenophobic approach is pretty well proven to work at securing galactic dominance. The fact that the Imperium is still the largest faction after 10K years of war and basically a stagnated development just reinforces how insanely powerful their crusade was in establishing them.



But yes if you read any Imperial based reports, documents or stories/lore its going to be bias to supporting their mantra and ideals. Just as Tau is going to support the sanity and logic of the Greater Good.

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 Hellebore wrote:

It's funny. With the addition of the squats and the number of non xenocidal factions now present, the imperium is IMO starting to look (even) more ridiculous in its irrationality. We see that the oft used argument that the galaxy is so terrible that being xenocidal is necessary to be patently untrue, which further pushes the imperium to the 'dark' side of the 40k spectrum.

Regardless of the squats being 'dwarfs', they're still from human stock, so they're basically a human empire that has existed and flourished without the need to exterminate everyone else.

The fandom's gleeful acceptance of that conventional wisdom (everything is bad) to justify enjoying being a xenocidal hero starts looking a bit more strained.

Highlighting that is kind of a plus, I think. The imperium is supposed to be despicable and hindered by its own cranked-to-eleven evil. Given how a lot of the lore has kind of drifted towards showing marines as unironic heroes, it's nice to have another reminder that the imperium's cruelty is comically self-hindering rather than, "What it takes to survive," or whatever.

Well the Imperium is still the most successful living faction of all those currently around. In general they've shown that the whole crusade of humanity approach allowed them to expand dominance in a way no other faction has. Yes the Imperium has stalled, but that was due to internal civil war (driven by Chaos of course) rather than a fully outside invasion force.


So in general the Xenophobic approach is pretty well proven to work at securing galactic dominance. The fact that the Imperium is still the largest faction after 10K years of war and basically a stagnated development just reinforces how insanely powerful their crusade was in establishing them.

Eh... I mean, for a certain definition of "successful". The imperium has pretty clearly failed to provide a decent quality of life to a huge portion of its population. Its inefficient resource harvesting is literally destroying some of its own planets (by destabilizing their cores). It is extremely technologically and culturally stagnant. It is supposedly (slowly) losing its overall struggle against various existential threats.

Reasonable people could argue that the crusades were only as successful as they were because of the direct action of the primarchs and the emperor which in turn could be used to argue that the whole "crusading strategy" isn't necessarily all that effective if you don't have superhumans around to give it a little extra oomph. And on top of that, you could argue that the crusade was basically just a really imbalanced push for millitary assets with which to overwhelm smaller factions (often through weight of numbers) that in turn resulted in many of the systems and policies that leave humanity vulnerable and stagnant in the 41st millenium. So like, the emperor arguably just caused humanity to compromise its health and resources for the sake of a big military push/population boom that may ultimately see them go extinct due to an inability to advance or react quickly to problems. He also functionally wiped out a lot of diverse cultures and technologies that might have proven useful against some of the newer threats to humanity. So how successful the crusades and humanity's population boom really were is debatable.

Also, the imperium being in its current state for ~10,000 years isn't necessarily all that impressive depending on how you look at it. How long did the necrontyr society last before the war in heaven? How long did the aeldari society last before the Fall. Heck, ork culture/society has arguably been continuing and succeeding since the War in Heaven. Humanity being populous right this moment doesn't necessarily make xenophobic crusades a good survival strategy in the long run nor does the imperium decaying for 10,000 years necessarily make it a particularly impressive or successful society by a lot of criteria.

But I'm doing a ton of nitpicking here.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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I'm so tired of this whole "should the imperium be portrayed in a more moderate way going forward like the Votann?" feth no!

First of all the votann are only maybe moderate compared to the imperium, they'll still kill you if your planet has something they want or if you somehow slighted them. Being a bit better than the imperium on 40k is not a very high bar.

And why the hell should the imperium move towards moderation? The grimdarkness, inefficiency and stupidity of the imperium is at the very core and being of the setting. Guillimans struggle towards a less superstitious and stupid imperium is still a struggle towards a slightly different totalitarian regime...and in all likelyhood his struggle is doomed to fail, which btw is a good thing. Guillimans tragedy is him being a more enlightened figure (only compared to the 40k imperium mind you, but still), who could bring genuine improvement while ultimately not being able to change the core tenants of the 40k imperium....religious dogma, superstition, inefficiency and stupidity. That's actually a great story hook, the imperium as a whole going more towards noblebright because of Guilliman would be really dumb.


People need to finally realise that while the imperium as a faction is ducking horrible from real life standpoint, does not mean it can't have heroic or likeable characters you can identify with, or that every imperium fan is automatically a proud self proclaimed fascist supporter like some users on here would want you to believe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/29 06:02:51


 
   
 
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