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Worry not. The next marine codex, next year, will increase the power of SM to beyond anything we have seen in this edition. The next BDS will boost SM, GW already announced that.

The balance dataslate sure boosted Marines all right. Just a small buff to a secondary that no one takes, but boy oh boy it sure boosted them!

Thank God to.

Yeah as a csm player I really feel like trying to put bolters on csm troops is the worst option in most cases, and ranged weapons seem like sort of a trap for that reason, unless you put assault weapons on them maybe, like flamers… adding d6+2 s4 hits before a charge seems like it can really add more utility, although this may be best done to a unit you don’t intend to charge that turn. Or maybe a melta so you can try to put a dent in a vehicle before you start punching things in the face. I’ve wanted the Bolter to be decent for some time because I really like the way bolter marines look…
It doesn’t help that csm squads will be outclassed by many things in that book at punching things in the face though. Keep ‘em cheap, throw em at objectives and let the heavy lifters put some pressure and produce threats for them to respond to I suppose. I will totally run a bolter squad though just so I can have it on the table XD maybe even add a heavy bolter because rule of cool and I bought my csm squads right before the new models were announced…

macluvin wrote:
Yeah as a csm player I really feel like trying to put bolters on csm troops is the worst option in most cases, and ranged weapons seem like sort of a trap for that reason, unless you put assault weapons on them maybe, like flamers… adding d6+2 s4 hits before a charge seems like it can really add more utility, although this may be best done to a unit you don’t intend to charge that turn. Or maybe a melta so you can try to put a dent in a vehicle before you start punching things in the face. I’ve wanted the Bolter to be decent for some time because I really like the way bolter marines look…
It doesn’t help that csm squads will be outclassed by many things in that book at punching things in the face though. Keep ‘em cheap, throw em at objectives and let the heavy lifters put some pressure and produce threats for them to respond to I suppose. I will totally run a bolter squad though just so I can have it on the table XD maybe even add a heavy bolter because rule of cool and I bought my csm squads right before the new models were announced…

With LoV having AoC and Daemons as an army now, there's legit no reason to ever go MoT + Icon

 Niiai wrote:
Where do you stand on troops when you play SM?

Personally I play SW and I do not like the troops at all. Og Grey Hunters and Blood Claws are fine when compared to regular marines. But neither SW spesific or regular marine troops are good.

There are cheaper units if you want to just stand on objectives. They are more durable then say servitors. But 9th is so deadly the SM die easally enough if people want to kill them. And the troops do not kill enough for their points.

Heavy interacessors are fat enough to stand a punch. The infiltraiting units have some slight utility uses for one or two units.

But it mostly feel like a tax to not loose 3 CP. What do you people feel about troops? And what sort of army do you run?

Haven't played 9th since the first few months, but as I'm looking to get my army into the field again my Troops go-to will be 5-man Tac Squads with Grav Cannons or Multimeltas, and probably a Combi-Plas or Melta on the Sergeant. I believe the list has 6 such squads, and the army context is the "Power Armor Swarm" type of build. (All Firstborn).

In comparison to Intercessors, the Firstborn have far better shooting capability and the same defensive stats. What they lack is CC attacks, but I'm more than happy to trade those away for what the Heavy weapon brings to the table.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Haven't played 9th since the first few months, but as I'm looking to get my army into the field again my Troops go-to will be 5-man Tac Squads with Grav Cannons or Multimeltas, and probably a Combi-Plas or Melta on the Sergeant. I believe the list has 6 such squads, and the army context is the "Power Armor Swarm" type of build. (All Firstborn).

In comparison to Intercessors, the Firstborn have far better shooting capability and the same defensive stats. What they lack is CC attacks, but I'm more than happy to trade those away for what the Heavy weapon brings to the table.

As someone who’s fielded both old and new, I’m always impressed by the work intercessor sarges get done in CC. Give the sarge a toy and watch him go. The squad backs that up with weight of numbers. Tac squads just seem a little anemic in comparison. But you are right, the heavy/special weapons do a lot of heavy lifting in the shooting phase. I’ve gotten good milage out of a full-melta 10 man tac squad in a rhino. Might not be the most min/max thing out there, but it’s been my MVP in a number of games.

I might be a little biased, as I play crusade. Slightly different set of buffs and expectations.

You make a fair point with the shooting options of tac squads. I still dont think I would take 6, that seems like a lot of overkill. You're spending about 700 points on these squads, and while you get some heavy guns out of the deal, something like Eradicators gets you a lot more heavy guns for a lot cheaper.

The problem with power armor spam is that you'll find that most armies in the game are *really, really* good at killing power armored units. Power armor spam works if it's something your opponent is going to have a hard time with, but just about everybody and their brother is bringing a suite of high ap dam2 weapons these days.

3 tac squads with a heavy weapon each I could get behind though. Keep your troops to a minimum while filling out your battalion. Or even 2 squads like that and 1 squad of infiltrator/incursors for some early forward deployment.

apogats wrote:
You make a fair point with the shooting options of tac squads. I still dont think I would take 6, that seems like a lot of overkill. You're spending about 700 points on these squads, and while you get some heavy guns out of the deal, something like Eradicators gets you a lot more heavy guns for a lot cheaper.

The problem with power armor spam is that you'll find that most armies in the game are *really, really* good at killing power armored units. Power armor spam works if it's something your opponent is going to have a hard time with, but just about everybody and their brother is bringing a suite of high ap dam2 weapons these days.

3 tac squads with a heavy weapon each I could get behind though. Keep your troops to a minimum while filling out your battalion. Or even 2 squads like that and 1 squad of infiltrator/incursors for some early forward deployment.

Not to say one is better than the other (although I have my opinion! ), but using your own reasoning it's easy to express why I'm not keen on a unit like Eradicators. You mention that it's easy to kill models in Power Armor, but even Eradicators are models in Power Armor. Concentrating a bunch of heavy guns just makes a bigger target and potential liability, imo. The Tac Squads are Obsec models that will be useful to have anyways, and combined they can bring the same firepower as Eradicators, just distributed. I should mention that I'll fill up on Devastators anyways, although when I do I take the extra bodies so that the unit is less vulnerable to fire, and the extra Bolters can lend supporting fire wherever it's needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Haven't played 9th since the first few months, but as I'm looking to get my army into the field again my Troops go-to will be 5-man Tac Squads with Grav Cannons or Multimeltas, and probably a Combi-Plas or Melta on the Sergeant. I believe the list has 6 such squads, and the army context is the "Power Armor Swarm" type of build. (All Firstborn).

In comparison to Intercessors, the Firstborn have far better shooting capability and the same defensive stats. What they lack is CC attacks, but I'm more than happy to trade those away for what the Heavy weapon brings to the table.

As someone who’s fielded both old and new, I’m always impressed by the work intercessor sarges get done in CC. Give the sarge a toy and watch him go. The squad backs that up with weight of numbers. Tac squads just seem a little anemic in comparison. But you are right, the heavy/special weapons do a lot of heavy lifting in the shooting phase. I’ve gotten good milage out of a full-melta 10 man tac squad in a rhino. Might not be the most min/max thing out there, but it’s been my MVP in a number of games.

I might be a little biased, as I play crusade. Slightly different set of buffs and expectations.

Looking at the numbers it seems like not a good tradeoff, as the Intercessor Sergeant only has one more attack and a Tactical Sergeant can otherwise be armed just the same. On the one hand you can CC your opponent in the opponents own turn (good for Intercessors), on the other hand the Heavy weapon can start doing damage sooner (good for Tacs). It probably depends on tactics used, as historically I'm usually not involved in a CC for many rounds anyways because I play UM and I can just leave the CC, and then fire the Heavy back in to it Plus, doing more damage sooner I find can help shape the way the eventual CC goes anyways.

Eradicators are by no means invulnerable, but they are in Gravis armor, not power armor, so they are a bit harder to take out with an extra w and extra point of toughness.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Haven't played 9th since the first few months, but as I'm looking to get my army into the field again my Troops go-to will be 5-man Tac Squads with Grav Cannons or Multimeltas, and probably a Combi-Plas or Melta on the Sergeant. I believe the list has 6 such squads, and the army context is the "Power Armor Swarm" type of build. (All Firstborn).

In comparison to Intercessors, the Firstborn have far better shooting capability and the same defensive stats. What they lack is CC attacks, but I'm more than happy to trade those away for what the Heavy weapon brings to the table.

As someone who’s fielded both old and new, I’m always impressed by the work intercessor sarges get done in CC. Give the sarge a toy and watch him go. The squad backs that up with weight of numbers. Tac squads just seem a little anemic in comparison. But you are right, the heavy/special weapons do a lot of heavy lifting in the shooting phase. I’ve gotten good milage out of a full-melta 10 man tac squad in a rhino. Might not be the most min/max thing out there, but it’s been my MVP in a number of games.

I might be a little biased, as I play crusade. Slightly different set of buffs and expectations.

Looking at the numbers it seems like not a good tradeoff, as the Intercessor Sergeant only has one more attack and a Tactical Sergeant can otherwise be armed just the same. On the one hand you can CC your opponent in the opponents own turn (good for Intercessors), on the other hand the Heavy weapon can start doing damage sooner (good for Tacs). It probably depends on tactics used, as historically I'm usually not involved in a CC for many rounds anyways because I play UM and I can just leave the CC, and then fire the Heavy back in to it Plus, doing more damage sooner I find can help shape the way the eventual CC goes anyways.

I guess with the primaris sarge I feel the extra attack pushes them over the “maybe/should” into the “probably” doing something relevant in the CC phase. Mathhammer and who you are up against obviously have a bit of impact here.

From a purely visceral gut feeling point of view I like how intercessors play. They feel like marines are written. Bolter rifle fire kills things, they are a CC threat. Mathematically, a shooting tac squad might get more done, but that feels like the heavy/specials talking; not the marines. Intercessors do it with modern takes on the classic load. I’d love it it tac squads could feel like that, but they hit like a wet noodle in CC.

Obviously, disregard fluffy stuff in a tactics thread. But at least in FLGS play I can put marines on the table and feel like I’m playing a marine army. Not just 2x5 man scout squads and fill up on the good stuff of competitive editions past. (Not that I ever actually did that personally, but you know the point).

I understand where you're coming from "viscerally", although I come at the same thing from the "historic" perspective when it comes to how they ought to fare in certain CC matchups.

But for me "viscerally" it ain't Marines if it's not Tactical Squads! And part of that is the ability to effectively engage any type of target in CC and at range, and that's what the Heavy/Special do for me. Those who ran the 2x Scout Squads were doing it wrong anyways .

Tactically I feel the strength is in the better firepower ensuring that fewer enemies get to CC in the fist place. However I also realize that I'm not as experienced in 9th, and if multiple rounds of CC on mid-table objectives is the thing to do, then the better CC unit might be a more favored choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

apogats wrote:
Eradicators are by no means invulnerable, but they are in Gravis armor, not power armor, so they are a bit harder to take out with an extra w and extra point of toughness.

Granted . . . But just a bit.

Well if you want melee, I'll still argue Assault Intercessors are good.

There is a spectrum of the mainline marine troops, from shooty to choppy:

Tacticals
Intercessors
Assault intercessors.

I think they all have a role in the battleline. And can be further differentiated by gear. What chapter you play also has a massive impact.

For example, as an Ultramarine I’m in tac doctrine for as long as I can. Assault intercessors can be mean in the assault doctrine. They are rolling a bucket of dice and can put some harm down. But for the role of run up the table and get stuck in, I feel like I get more milage out of regular intercessors with autobolt rifles. For most of the game they can cover ground and project firepower, and are no slouches in CC.

Although to be fair, I like the stock rapid fire the best. Some of that might just be the Ultra talking. The shoot like you are standing still and extra pip of AP on turns 2-3 lets them move to objectives and still bolter drill. Quite nice.

For ObSec backfield camping would you rather have a LC and some stock bolters or 5xStalker bolt rifles and a AGL? Same cost.

Firstborn have more and better toys, but the basic battle brother sometimes just feels like an ablative wound for the shiny stuff. Which to be fair he does a good job at, so the firepower drops off slower with casualties vs. the more linear fall of uniform primaris squads.

I still field tacs not just for nostalgia, but they fill a subtly different role then the new boys. They still have the full toolkit of toys and options you can use to patch gaps in your list. Especially at low point games, where you might not have the unit count to have the specialist for every role.


I’ve fielded both the phobos troop pics, and while they both work, I prefer the infiltrators. They’ve pretty much replaced scouts in my life. A bit pricy per wound, but the guns are great for plinking wounds off things, and the infiltrate and omni-scramblers are very nice tools to have.

Incursors are good and cheep, but the ignore cover and hit mods is just on their basic boring guns. They can counter things that rely on shenanigans to live, but honestly I’d rather have more of a stock punch with my shooting.

Not messed around much with heavy intercessors. They seem like a condensed troop pick.

Heavy Intercessors are grossly overcosted. Should be 24-25 ppm, not 28 (and even then I might not want to take them over the Phobos guys, who have good utility). They just don't really have a role. They can't take any good melee weapons, their guns are higher Strength than normal Ints but otherwise the same (so you're not bringing them for their damage output), and their durability isn't that amazing given how many 3 or 3+d3 damage weapons are out there these days (though obviously they are good vs. 2-damage stuff, which is more common). If all you need is an objective camper, why would you splurge on the points for Heavies? Just take normal Ints or even Tacticals and call it a day. It's a damn shame, as I love the models and want them to be good, but they just don't get there.

There's 2 things wrong with Tactical Marines:
1) Bolters suck.
2) They're too expensive for what you get.

The old Black Templar rules had 15 point Crusaders, these had the exact same profile as Tactical Marines and weren't breaking the meta. This was before AoC of course, but AoC hasn't done much for Tactical Marines either.

So either bolters need to get better, such as making all the AP0 bolter profiles AP-1 to make them more viable, or Tactical Marines get a point drop. The third option is to just do what GW have been doing for everyone else, just make their special and heavy weapon options free. I personally hate the free wargear but that's the direction GW are going.

Jarms48 wrote:
There's 2 things wrong with Tactical Marines:
1) Bolters suck.
2) They're too expensive for what you get.

The old Black Templar rules had 15 point Crusaders, these had the exact same profile as Tactical Marines and weren't breaking the meta. This was before AoC of course, but AoC hasn't done much for Tactical Marines either.

So either bolters need to get better, such as making all the AP0 bolter profiles AP-1 to make them more viable, or Tactical Marines get a point drop. The third option is to just do what GW have been doing for everyone else, just make their special and heavy weapon options free. I personally hate the free wargear but that's the direction GW are going.

If Tacticals suck, the question then is what are you taking instead?

If you're looking for a shooting Troops choice, Tacs are the winners even though Bolters have AP 0, because they can up-gun in ways that none of the other choices can. 5 Intercessors vs. MEQs for example get (.666 x .5 x .333 x 10) 1.1 wounds, accounting for AoC. A Grav Cannon alone gets (.666 x .666 x .666 x 2 x 4) 2.3, doubling the damage output before you put the Bolters into them, for the same cost. Adding in the Bolters gets you 3.25, tripling the damage output of the Intercessors.

You could take the Assault Bolter thing against GEQs, (15 x .666 x .666 x.666) for 4.4 wounds, and against the same lighter target the Tacs pull (8 x .666 x.666 x .666) 2.36 + (4 x .666 x .666) 1.7 for 4.0 GEQ wounds, but that minor advantage against light targets pales in comparison to the opportunity to deal more damage to more valuable targets out there. Just split your fire and shoot your Heavy at something more important.

Imo Tacs own the ranged game.

They all suck, but each of the other options should be balanced around tacticals.

Bolters historically have to be a middling gun. Its literally the bar all other infantry weapons are set against, so any faction which needs a niche such as "our basic gun is incredibly advanced" will most likely be better than a bolter.

Intercessors/ tacticals are really fine where they are, they outfight the things they dont outshoot and vice versa against the overwhelming majority of over troop slots in the game.

AP creep has already arguably been terrible for the game and forced some janky mechanics far more widespread than anyone would of liked and arguably lethality needs to be toned down.

SM troops are excellent at bunking on objectives, or bullying rival troops off in an assault. They dont need to be ranged firepower units, you have Heavy Support for that.

Well i think troops choices and other units, deserve an improvment or a general discount to the price.
Said that I think it depends on what chapter you play, I give you my experience based on my matches and on the army I play, the Blood Angels.
My go for troops are usually a mix, one unit of infiltrators, one unit of assault intercessors and One unit of incursors.
The infiltrators usually stay in my deploy and with their rule protect my deploy from deepstrikes units, they have phobos keyword, so if they survive enought can with a stratagem, go out of the table for a turn then come back from one of the table edges, giving me the possibility to reach my secondaries.
The incursors play more in the middle of the table, usually stand on an objective tryng to survive and bait enemy's units vs melee army, vs shooting army they can stay on the objective or if I need go out and try a charge for tie up shooting units or take an overwatch for save another unit, I don't expect too much from them, always die bad and usually won't reach the third turn so they can't benefit from the assault doctrine but It this happen's it's a nice thing to have, if they survive they are phobos too, so can do the same redeploy of the infiltrators.
The assault intercessors are there because they are less costing of other troops (well a tactical squad cost less but don't give me nothing), they protect as they can my deploy zone, then when it's time they begin to push on an objective in to the no man's land, usually they never reach the enemy's deploy.
Obviously they can't punch too much over they're weight but against other infantry maybe with light armour like almost all of the trhee Eldars factions troops, the deamons troops even with they're untouchable saves, they can give some punches also against other meq units when the assault doctrine 's Is on.

obviously this is a generic read, every match do an history by itself and all the things I've said can happen's if you give a good read of the match you're playing and if you bring the right tool to the fight, I think also, as other gamers that the
marines are in a bad spot now made exeption for the blood angels cause they have some good units and secondary.