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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 VladimirHerzog wrote:
"Okay math into their respective targets"

What? Can you run these calculations for me because i'm pretty sure a 5 man sniper team would have a hard time killing any character that isnt a warlock/commissar


Well... lets take Eldar Rangers. 13 points a model.
Picking a target is harder. But Idk, lets say a Master of Possession. 105 points without a mark.
Well rangers expect to do 5/36 mortal wounds and 5/36 regular damage each shot. So theoretically you'd need 18 to do the 5 wounds.
18*13=234 points. 105/234=44.8% return. Seems reasonable enough to me.

You could argue this is a bit unfair (the rangers would likely have to move, the MoP could have some defensive buffs, but then you could buff the rangers etc) - but that's the baseline numbers if you stuck the rangers in a good spot and could just pop the character as he jogs across the table.

But are you going to take 18 rangers on the off-chance you can nuke your opponent's MoP? Probably not. But I think this is because of the issues mentioned - the Chaos player would just keep the MOP safely behind the wall. But this applies equally for hiding any units from any guns.

I feel if 5 Rangers at 65 points could even vaguely reliably pop characters costing 65, let alone 100 points in a shooting phase, there would be balance concerns.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

EviscerationPlague wrote:
[spoiler]
ccs wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
ccs wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
I also still hate free weapons because they're clearly not equal. Who is ever going to take a sniper rifle, grenade launcher, or flamer?

So it's not just the options themselves being limited, it's the choices too.


Your choices might be limited based on how you choose to play (ex; you're in a tourney & don't have the option to change weapons between games) or collect.

Mine? My options are the same as always.
● I don't play in tourneys.
● I've gone to the effort to have an extra model of each weapon type (including basic lasgun) painted up for each of my squads "special weapons trooper".
● I don't generally play random games. So i almost always know what I'll be facing. Against some foes the trusty plasma/melta will do. Againt others a flamer. Sometimes a sniper rifle....
● I have zero qualms about tailoring my weapon choices vs what I expect to face.
I've done it this way for many years.
The difference between then & now? Now I'm not paying pts per gun.

What are you using Sniper Rifles to tailor for LOL


Forces that like their character models - GSC, SoB, other Guard. One particular UltraMarine (very annoying with all his medics, standard, LT, etc).
At least the ones I play against. Players of these forces in your area might not rely as heavily upon these characters, but I'm only concerned with who/what I play against.
I'll grant you that a Guard sniper rifle isn't the best weapon. But it's what I've got for the job I'm using it for & I'll just have to fish for 6s & hope the targets fail saves....
[spoiler]
What you described is attempted tailoring and actually realizing the weapon sucks for that job.

So I'll reiterate: what are you using Sniper Rifles to tailor for LOL


What am I targeting? GSC characters, SoB characters, Guard characters, and now & then some UM characters.
It's worked well enough for me to date & I'll be sad if/when I can't use multiples in vet/command/special weapon squads anymore.

On admitting Guard sniper rifles aren't the best weapon (I was thinking specifically within the sniper rifle category)? It's true, they'd be better if they had even a pt of AP like many others in other factions. But nothing I can do about that, so....

On the fishing for 6's & hoping for failed saves? That's not anything particular to the sniper rifle. Any weapon in any army I play that has effects that trigger on x#? Well, I hope I roll that #. Same with hoping the target fails their save
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Tyel wrote:
Spoiler:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
"Okay math into their respective targets"

What? Can you run these calculations for me because i'm pretty sure a 5 man sniper team would have a hard time killing any character that isnt a warlock/commissar


Well... lets take Eldar Rangers. 13 points a model.
Picking a target is harder. But Idk, lets say a Master of Possession. 105 points without a mark.
Well rangers expect to do 5/36 mortal wounds and 5/36 regular damage each shot. So theoretically you'd need 18 to do the 5 wounds.
18*13=234 points. 105/234=44.8% return. Seems reasonable enough to me.

You could argue this is a bit unfair (the rangers would likely have to move, the MoP could have some defensive buffs, but then you could buff the rangers etc) - but that's the baseline numbers if you stuck the rangers in a good spot and could just pop the character as he jogs across the table.

But are you going to take 18 rangers on the off-chance you can nuke your opponent's MoP? Probably not. But I think this is because of the issues mentioned - the Chaos player would just keep the MOP safely behind the wall. But this applies equally for hiding any units from any guns.

I feel if 5 Rangers at 65 points could even vaguely reliably pop characters costing 65, let alone 100 points in a shooting phase, there would be balance concerns.


5/6 chance to hit, 1/6 chance of mortal wounds is 5/36 mortal wounds each and then 1/2 to wound so 5/12 wounds, of which half are saved so 5/24 damage. 0.21 damage + 0.14 MW = 0.35 wounds each or 14 rangers by my reckoning?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




ccs wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
[spoiler]
ccs wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
ccs wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
I also still hate free weapons because they're clearly not equal. Who is ever going to take a sniper rifle, grenade launcher, or flamer?

So it's not just the options themselves being limited, it's the choices too.


Your choices might be limited based on how you choose to play (ex; you're in a tourney & don't have the option to change weapons between games) or collect.

Mine? My options are the same as always.
● I don't play in tourneys.
● I've gone to the effort to have an extra model of each weapon type (including basic lasgun) painted up for each of my squads "special weapons trooper".
● I don't generally play random games. So i almost always know what I'll be facing. Against some foes the trusty plasma/melta will do. Againt others a flamer. Sometimes a sniper rifle....
● I have zero qualms about tailoring my weapon choices vs what I expect to face.
I've done it this way for many years.
The difference between then & now? Now I'm not paying pts per gun.

What are you using Sniper Rifles to tailor for LOL


Forces that like their character models - GSC, SoB, other Guard. One particular UltraMarine (very annoying with all his medics, standard, LT, etc).
At least the ones I play against. Players of these forces in your area might not rely as heavily upon these characters, but I'm only concerned with who/what I play against.
I'll grant you that a Guard sniper rifle isn't the best weapon. But it's what I've got for the job I'm using it for & I'll just have to fish for 6s & hope the targets fail saves....
[spoiler]
What you described is attempted tailoring and actually realizing the weapon sucks for that job.

So I'll reiterate: what are you using Sniper Rifles to tailor for LOL


What am I targeting? GSC characters, SoB characters, Guard characters, and now & then some UM characters.

Someone already mathed out you need 15 Rangers to kill a Marine character. Please tell me you don't think that even 10 Sniper Rifles from Imperial Guard are going to do anything like "sniping some UM characters".
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dudeface wrote:
5/6 chance to hit, 1/6 chance of mortal wounds is 5/36 mortal wounds each and then 1/2 to wound so 5/12 wounds, of which half are saved so 5/24 damage. 0.21 damage + 0.14 MW = 0.35 wounds each or 14 rangers by my reckoning?


I think you are forgetting AoC.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Tyel wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
5/6 chance to hit, 1/6 chance of mortal wounds is 5/36 mortal wounds each and then 1/2 to wound so 5/12 wounds, of which half are saved so 5/24 damage. 0.21 damage + 0.14 MW = 0.35 wounds each or 14 rangers by my reckoning?


I think you are forgetting AoC.


I most definitely am!
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I dunno, aren't Eliminators, or whatever the Primaris Sniper scout unit is, one of the best (points efficient) units in their entire lineup? Also their Troops choice that gets sniper weapons, Infiltrators? Also, the Primaris Captain in Phobos armor with the sniper rifle has a 3 dam character targeting sniper rifle thats S4 AP2 3d. That's not bad for 95 points. BS2+ with re-rolls.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I dunno, aren't Eliminators, or whatever the Primaris Sniper scout unit is, one of the best (points efficient) units in their entire lineup? Also their Troops choice that gets sniper weapons, Infiltrators? Also, the Primaris Captain in Phobos armor with the sniper rifle has a 3 dam character targeting sniper rifle thats S4 AP2 3d. That's not bad for 95 points. BS2+ with re-rolls.


This is just a worse Vindicator, which as I said earlier isn't great either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/14 06:51:33


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I dunno, aren't Eliminators, or whatever the Primaris Sniper scout unit is, one of the best (points efficient) units in their entire lineup? Also their Troops choice that gets sniper weapons, Infiltrators? Also, the Primaris Captain in Phobos armor with the sniper rifle has a 3 dam character targeting sniper rifle thats S4 AP2 3d. That's not bad for 95 points. BS2+ with re-rolls.

Eliminators were good in the 8.5 Codex (along with a lot of SM units). They're pretty much trash now as a shooting unit, mainly because they neutered their weapons. They have some movement tricks, so you sometimes see them for that. No SM Troops choice gets sniper weapons. The Phobos Captain is a meme at best. He can get up to Damage 4 with the right Warlord Trait but he can't re-roll unless it's from a Chapter Master and has no weapon options.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




The las talons ones, are one of the better marine units. The thing is, being one of the better marine units doesn't put you high on the pile of good units over all. Most marine units are like that.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in au
Rookie Pilot




Brisbane

I'd actually look at the Command Squads more as a utility buffer now... Banner, Medkit, Vox, free ablative wound... I'd rather not add anything extra to it to draw further fire...

I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore. 
   
 
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