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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





5pts for every 6” of movement
5pts for every point of S, T, and A
1pt per wound
WS, BS, Sv Ld take the chosen stat and subtract it from 10 (eg WS3+ 10-3=7 pts)
10pts for every 5model transport capacity.
Invulnerable save same as save but subtract from 20 (5++ 20-5= 15pts)

Weapons per cost in codex

So let’s say a hull that looks like
M 12” WS5+ BS4+ S5 T6 Ld7 A2 W8 Sv4+
10. 5. 6. 25. 30. 13 10 8. 16

100pts if I did my math and followed my own rules correctly. (Literally just came up with this as I was typing)
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Move 24” (20 Points)
WS 6+ (4 Points)
BS 6+ (4 Points)
S1 (5 Points)
T11 (55 Points)
A1 (5 Points)
Sv 7+ (3 Points)
Ld10 (0 Points)
Capacity 10 (20 Points)
2++ (18 Points)
17 Wounds (17 Points)
151 Points for this.

Your system needs more work.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Pacific Northwest

Ha I think you gave Leadership the wrong cost. Should be positive, not negative, since higher is better.

I like the idea especially because the current rules for Orks looting tanks and things is so lame. Plus, I love mechlab.

I've never seen the old rules you speak of but you'll probably need some limits to prevent JNA from minimizing Strength to maximize Toughness.
I imagine an S1 T10 vehicle would be like a miniature tank with giant foam safety bumpers.
Ah yes, no need to put points in BS if you've got 4 flamers!

Dakka's Dive-In is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure, the amasec is more watery than a T'au boarding party but they can grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for the occasional ratling put through a window and you'll be alright.
It's classier than that gentleman's club for abhumans, at least.
- Caiphas Cain, probably

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Let's see here... For starters, I think I'd have a barebones starting template. Basically the lowest stats a thing can have while still being a "vehicle" in the 40k sense. This will also let you narrow down the range of possible stats and set prices more easily. So let's say our starting template is something like this:

Move: 6" (technically doesn't fit for something like a drop pod, but meh.)
BS/WS 6+
S/T/W 5
A 1
Ld 6(?)
Sv 4+
Weapons: None
Special Rules: None
Keywords: Vehicle, appropriate faction-level keywords ("Imperium" and "Adeptus Astartes")
Subfaction Keywords (ex: <Chapter&gt: none.
Starting Points: ??? (Not much. Maybe like, 40?)

For Toughness, set a price based on how important that change in value is. Ex: Going from T8 to T9 is a big deal because it means even dedicated anti-tank weapons like bright lances and missile launchers are only wounding you on a 5+. Going from T9 to T10 is less important because it pretty much only matters to S9 and S5. Etc. Totally untested gut feeling values I'd go with:

T5 = +0 pts
T6 = 10 pts
T7 = 25pts
T8 = 45 pts
T9 = 70 pts
T10+ (probably not available in this toolbox. Makes life easier for you. Makes it a bit harder to abuse. If you really want to allow values above 9, T10-13 should probably be relatively cheap increases from T9, but T14 and 16 should probably be a bit more pricey as you're causing anti-tank weapons to wound on 6+.)

Then, charge something like 5 points per additional Wound. So a total of 5 Wounds costs 0 points, (it's included in the template), but a total of 10 Wounds costs +50.

Then, make improvements to the Sv stat cost X times (Toughness cost) + (total Wounds). Something like:
Sv 3+ = times 0.3
Sv 2+ = times 0.7
So a T7 vehicle with 10 total wounds and a 3+ save (like a rhino) would pay (25 + 50) + ((25+50) x 0.3) = 97.5 extra points for its extra durability. Okay, I see already that my exact numbers need to decrease, but let's keep going for the sake of the general design approach.

Additional defensive rules should probably be calculated similarly to armor save improvements. The rule's multiplier (y) times (Toughness cost + total Wounds). The idea being that Toughness cost + Wounds gives you an idea of how hard the target is to wound and reduce to 0 Wounds, and then the multiplier represents how powerful the defensive rule is. A good invul or to-hit penalty is more powerful on something like an imperial knight than on something like a venom.

To determine the cost of BS, let's make the BS value a multiplier on the number of ranged weapon slots the vehicle has. So something like:
BS6+ = x1
BS5+ = x3
BS4+ = x5
BS3+ = x7
BS2+ = x 10

So something like a venom (BS3+ with two ranged weapons) would pay 7 x 2 = 14 points for its BS. Again, exact values can vary.

For melee performance, do something similar. Set a base price for Strength (probably one based on break points similar to what we did with Toughness), and then multiply that by the unit's Attacks stat. And then multiply that by a value based on WS. (WS6+ would probably just be x1). Note that this means you don't directly pay points for the Attacks stat, so you'd want to make sure the multiplier for S5 is at least 1 so that taking a million extra Attacks doesn't end up costing 0 points.

I'd probably just make Movement a flat cost per extra 3". Leadership would also probably be a flat cost and probably quite cheap as it rarely matters for vehicles. Also charge a flat rate for subfaction keywords (gives the vehicle chapter tactics), a flat rate for any additional rule-granting keywords ("death company", "drone"), and a flat rate for the Fly keyword. I'd price any weapon options based on our above formulas for BS and WS/Strength.

Oh, and then I'd create a pile of special rules whose prices would probably vary depending on what other special rules or stats the vehicle has. So a "ramming prow" special rule that lets you do mortal wounds on the charge might be cheap baseline, more expensive if you have high movement, even more expensive if you have a high WS/Strength price, and even more expensive than that if you also have the special rule that lets you charge after falling back from combat. Could probably give these special rules keywords to make it easier to call out synergies like that. Maybe charge a "complication tax" of z points per special rule you added to this monstrosity.

And finally, round your total cost up to the nearest multiple of 5.

Again, the exact numbers I've pitched here are way off, but you get the idea. Costs depend on a combination of factors. High Strength doesn't mean a lot if you can only hit on 6+ with one Attack. BS2+ means basically nothing if you don't have any guns, etc.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






As a base a vehicle should get a ROI of 0,2-0,5 per turn, in other words it should take 2-5 turns for the vehicle to pay for itself.

It should take 2-5 times the vehicles cost in lascannon Predators to kill it.

The faster the vehicle is and especially if it has FLY, the lower these values should be.

If we take the Monolith, ideally you'd want to test it 3 times and see how much it kills in each game, let's estimate it to be 100 pts per turn, so it should cost 200-500 pts.

It takes about 1000 pts worth of Predators to kill it so it should cost 200-500 pts.

It's Movement is low and it lacks FLY, but it has TITANIC, healing, CORE, some Strats and other abilities that are more or less useless. It probably belongs about in the middle for around 350 pts.

That's close enough to fair that it is ready for playtesting.

Transports are a bit more complicated, you either have to balance transports around cheap units and then overcost expensive units to account for the possibility of them taking relatively cheap transports or you have to make the transport expensive enough that it is fair on more expensive units, but that will make it overcosted for cheaper units. One way is not more right than the other, you should do it with a goal in mind.

Trying to assign a cost to every option in the game is insanity, everything is multiplicative and nothing is linear because you'll hit points of diminishing returns. Putting an extra demolisher cannon on a Vindicator is a huge deal, but whether a Vindicator has 10 or 11 demolisher cannons isn't much of a difference because it'll destroy most things within 24" and it won't survive for too long.

Units that get killed early should pay a premium for durability upgrades and units that die late should pay a premium for lethality upgrades. Which units die fast or slow depends on what faction they are in and having one unit with a good invulnerable save is very different from every unit having a good invulnerable save.
   
Made in fr
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot




Like every attempt to make vehicle creation rules you are doomed to failure. There are just too many moving parts to account for everything and the only way to keep people from min/maxing something game breaking is to overcost everything and impose strict limits on what you can take, at which point why bother? The only viable way to make new unit rules is to create a concept for the unit, assign stat lines and point costs by looking at similar units, and go through iterative playtesting to refine those rules into something reasonable and balanced.

Although I will give you credit for this at least: you've done better than the worst vehicle system I've ever seen, where the guy didn't think it through at all and it was possible to create a vehicle with a negative point cost.

johnpjones1775 wrote:
5pts for every 6” of movement
5pts for every point of S, T, and A
1pt per wound
WS, BS, Sv Ld take the chosen stat and subtract it from 10 (eg WS3+ 10-3=7 pts)
10pts for every 5model transport capacity.
Invulnerable save same as save but subtract from 20 (5++ 20-5= 15pts)

Weapons per cost in codex


M0" (0 points)
S0 (0 points)
T0 (0 points)
W1 (1 point)
WS 10+ (0 points)
BS 2+ (8 points)
SV 10+ (0 points)
Armed with one thousand earthshaker cannons (0 points each)

Total of 9 points for this nonsense. Sure, it's immobile and dies instantly to anything that attacks it but if I win the roll to go first everything on the table is instantly dead and the only limit on how many I can take is the maximum number per unit (which you didn't provide rules for).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/30 10:19:50


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Aecus Decimus wrote:
Like every attempt to make vehicle creation rules you are doomed to failure. There are just too many moving parts to account for everything and the only way to keep people from min/maxing something game breaking is to overcost everything and impose strict limits on what you can take, at which point why bother? The only viable way to make new unit rules is to create a concept for the unit, assign stat lines and point costs by looking at similar units, and go through iterative playtesting to refine those rules into something reasonable and balanced.

Although I will give you credit for this at least: you've done better than the worst vehicle system I've ever seen, where the guy didn't think it through at all and it was possible to create a vehicle with a negative point cost.

johnpjones1775 wrote:
5pts for every 6” of movement
5pts for every point of S, T, and A
1pt per wound
WS, BS, Sv Ld take the chosen stat and subtract it from 10 (eg WS3+ 10-3=7 pts)
10pts for every 5model transport capacity.
Invulnerable save same as save but subtract from 20 (5++ 20-5= 15pts)

Weapons per cost in codex


M0" (0 points)
S0 (0 points)
T0 (0 points)
W1 (1 point)
WS 10+ (0 points)
BS 2+ (8 points)
SV 10+ (0 points)
Armed with one thousand earthshaker cannons (0 points each)

Total of 9 points for this nonsense. Sure, it's immobile and dies instantly to anything that attacks it but if I win the roll to go first everything on the table is instantly dead and the only limit on how many I can take is the maximum number per unit (which you didn't provide rules for).
chimera is 65 points, basilisk is 125, i'd say the earthshaker is 60pts per the codex.
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






That's 30 earthshaker cannons in a 2k list... Aaaand infinite mortars.
   
Made in fr
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot




johnpjones1775 wrote:
chimera is 65 points, basilisk is 125, i'd say the earthshaker is 60pts per the codex.


But that's not "cost per codex" since the cost in the codex is zero points. That's "cost derived from my opinion of how best to compare similar units".

Also, your comparison isn't even consistent with the rest of your system. If the Chimera's transport capacity of 12 models costs 20 points (rounding down) then the Chimera hull + weapons cost is only 45 points, making the earthshaker 80 points total. But then let's try to make the Chimera under your system:

M: 10 points
S: 30 points
T :35 points
A: 15 points
W: 10 points
WS: 4 points
BS: 6 points
Transport: 20 points

Under your system the Chimera costs 120 points without even including the cost of weapons. Clearly this is not working.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 vict0988 wrote:
That's 30 earthshaker cannons in a 2k list... Aaaand infinite mortars.
mortars aren't vehicle weapons, so not sure where you're getting 'infinite mortars' from
   
Made in fr
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot




johnpjones1775 wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
That's 30 earthshaker cannons in a 2k list... Aaaand infinite mortars.
mortars aren't vehicle weapons, so not sure where you're getting 'infinite mortars' from


So vehicles can only take a weapon if an existing vehicle already has it? That seems pretty needlessly restrictive.
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Pacific Northwest

Aecus Decimus wrote:
johnpjones1775 wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
That's 30 earthshaker cannons in a 2k list... Aaaand infinite mortars.
mortars aren't vehicle weapons, so not sure where you're getting 'infinite mortars' from

So vehicles can only take a weapon if an existing vehicle already has it? That seems pretty needlessly restrictive.
It makes sense to me. If GW hasn't put a certain weapon on any vehicle by now then it's probably not good to house-rule it in.
Then again, I'm pretty sure vehicle-mounted mortars are a thing. I use them in Heavy Gear after all and those are walkers the size of Crisis suits.

Dakka's Dive-In is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure, the amasec is more watery than a T'au boarding party but they can grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for the occasional ratling put through a window and you'll be alright.
It's classier than that gentleman's club for abhumans, at least.
- Caiphas Cain, probably

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





As a reference, here's the original Vehicle Design Rules...before vehicles were giant meat bags.

http://www.ageofstrife.com/tools/vdr/index.html
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 amanita wrote:
As a reference, here's the original Vehicle Design Rules...before vehicles were giant meat bags.

http://www.ageofstrife.com/tools/vdr/index.html
not sure about original as that doesn't look anything like the rules from the WD
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 amanita wrote:
As a reference, here's the original Vehicle Design Rules...before vehicles were giant meat bags.

http://www.ageofstrife.com/tools/vdr/index.html


This looks about right.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/06 11:16:37


 
   
 
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