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Personally I'm really liking most of the leaks for the new Guard.

The Pros:
-New Orders look tasty, prefectus ones could really help on the Primary game too
-The Orders in combination with the new Auras means the equivalent of the old Laurels of Command going off everywhere
-Big buffs to units like Scions, Valks, Ogryns, Bullgryns, Russes etc
-Buffs to many weapon profiles
-Exploding 6's on Scions and Cadians looks strong
-ROUGH RIDERS look amazing stat wise
-Move and Disembark doctrine looks excellent whilst a few others look decent such as improved movement and range or move with heavies combining well with new FRFSRF. Aside from the move and disembark, they don't look as strong as some of the previous ones, but you do get 2.
-Super buffer Lord Solar seems as though he could be a really strong force multiplier
-Command squads get LoS (big for that vox and banner when considering guard secondaries)
-Many Damn Strong relics

The Cons:
-Command squads and their officer took a huge points increase
-Harder to have as many officers since they are all HQ, company commanders and Scions going down to 1 order is big but will be made up for by the Castellan (as long as he can order Scions)
-I don't personally mind this one since the maths shows a HSVG and a Plasma aren't far apart against most targets but many people annoyed with the 2 of same type of special restriction
-Orders now given in the Command Phase (lets see if there is a rule for a DS scion exception)

Imo the Pros definitely look like they outweigh the cons. However there is one massive con that has taken away some of the sparkle and that is the huge nerf to Guard Strategems.
Gone are the following strong and/or regularly used strats:
-Vengance for Cadia (no surprise tbf)
-Cadia Stands
-Shock Troops
-Daring Decent (granted you needed Iotan Gorgonnes but this strat was often so good they were worth taking just for it)
-Inspired Tactics (one of the most used in many lists)
-Hail of Fire
-Load Fire Reload (bye bye Quad Launchers)
-Overlapping Fields of Fire
-Killing Zone
-Grenadiers
-Point Bank Efficacy
-Take Cover

In their place are some really poor stratagems and some that have been kept that were rarely if ever used previously. There are some good ones, namely Relentless has stayed in there, as has field promotion. Thunderous charge is an improved version of its previous iteration as is Vicious Traps. Whist Vengeful Salute looks very good. But some of the new strats that would have been good at 1cp look overcosted at 2 cp such as Mount Up, Overcharged Lascells (used to be 1cp for Lambdan Lions), and Ablative Plating. Flakk Barrage requires a Hydra and can only target a flyer, whereas previously the shoot oncoming reserves was a Scion strat and could shoot anyone. There are some such as Feign and Strike that look good on paper, but when you consider that a Rough Riders defensive profile isn't surviving most charges and certainly won't be around for 2 assault phases if they didn't kill the unit they charged, will rarely be ever used. Smoke Launchers now cost CP which were free before.

Overall I feel the strats just seem like a bit of a let down in comparison to the rest. Those are a LOT of really good stratagems that Guard are losing with very little in replacement. The rest of the leaks seem excellent overall though. What are other people's thoughts on this?

I mostly agree on the stratagems. My Guard mostly is infantry and I already didn't use many stratagems but when I added it up there were only a few that I could even see myself using. And that means ones that can even be used. Adding it all up (including ones that aren't known yet) there are at most 8 that apply to infantry and a fair few of them aren't all that great. I mean, it's basically upgrades for officers or a sergeant and a whole bunch of things that do some mortal wounds. There isn't much that's interesting.

And that's one of my main issues. I already am not the biggest fan of the stratagem mechanic but there could at least have been some more interesting mechanics with them. But no, it's all so boring.

Well that fits with daemons where I find myself using mostly counter attack and reroll as rest are very situational.

Hopefully that's sign of 10th with importance of stratagems reduced.

tneva82 wrote:
Well that fits with daemons where I find myself using mostly counter attack and reroll as rest are very situational.

Hopefully that's sign of 10th with importance of stratagems reduced.

If that's the case, it will suck to be the second codex this is applied to after waiting so long for the dex. But I agree that reducing the power of strats (once all factions eventually get the same treatment) will help towards balancing the game further.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dolnikan wrote:
I mostly agree on the stratagems. My Guard mostly is infantry and I already didn't use many stratagems but when I added it up there were only a few that I could even see myself using. And that means ones that can even be used. Adding it all up (including ones that aren't known yet) there are at most 8 that apply to infantry and a fair few of them aren't all that great. I mean, it's basically upgrades for officers or a sergeant and a whole bunch of things that do some mortal wounds. There isn't much that's interesting.

And that's one of my main issues. I already am not the biggest fan of the stratagem mechanic but there could at least have been some more interesting mechanics with them. But no, it's all so boring.

Yeah, looking at the leaks I think I will be getting 2 WLTs, 2 Relics and a 3rd Relic in a squad, saving the 1 CP to combine with the first generated CP for a 'Mount Up' drive by from a Valk (situation dependent of course). Aside from the odd reroll or a combat interrupt if 2 Rough Rider squads are charged on the same turn (neither of which are Guard strats), I don't see me using many of the others outside of very situational circumstances.

I think you're missing some very strong option:

Relentless being allowed on titanic vehicles is a huge buff to them. Even at 2 CP it's still worth it to prevent your 4-500 point investment from being bracketed into uselessness.

Maverick Maneuvers is really strong, possibly to the point of being overpowered at only 1 CP, and is certainly going to make Sentinels a near-mandatory pick. The biggest weakness of guard is that even if you shoot your opponent's unit off an objective you can't move in to claim it until after you miss the opportunity to score VP from it. But for 1 CP you can hold a Sentinel squad to shoot last, shoot any random target on the table, and then move the Sentinels 6" onto the objective so you score VP without having to wait a turn. That's a game-changing ability.

Thunderous Charge is really efficient mortal wounds. Rough riders are S6 on the charge so against most targets you want to charge with them you're getting a mortal wound on a 3+. Get a full squad of 10 into engagement range and that's 6-7 mortal wounds on average for a single CP, on top of the normal damage you do from their attacks. And rough riders look like they're going to be an auto-take unit even without the stratagem.

Flakk Barrage is way better than the old storm trooper option. Shooting with a single infantry squad with short-ranged weapons and only its plasma guns to effectively engage vehicle targets was unlikely to do anything. Shooting with a Hydra that now shoots twice against aircraft with even better accuracy and can hit anything on the table has a good chance of at least bracketing the target and Hydras look like a pretty appealing pick in the new codex. If aircraft are significant in the meta you're going to be using this every turn.

Yeah, some of the pure damage buff stratagems are gone but those aren't really necessary anymore. You don't need LFR or grenadier gimmicks in a codex where the base performance of your units is at proper 9th edition levels.

Aecus Decimus wrote:
I think you're missing some very strong option:

Relentless being allowed on titanic vehicles is a huge buff to them. Even at 2 CP it's still worth it to prevent your 4-500 point investment from being bracketed into uselessness.

Maverick Maneuvers is really strong, possibly to the point of being overpowered at only 1 CP, and is certainly going to make Sentinels a near-mandatory pick. The biggest weakness of guard is that even if you shoot your opponent's unit off an objective you can't move in to claim it until after you miss the opportunity to score VP from it. But for 1 CP you can hold a Sentinel squad to shoot last, shoot any random target on the table, and then move the Sentinels 6" onto the objective so you score VP without having to wait a turn. That's a game-changing ability.

Thunderous Charge is really efficient mortal wounds. Rough riders are S6 on the charge so against most targets you want to charge with them you're getting a mortal wound on a 3+. Get a full squad of 10 into engagement range and that's 6-7 mortal wounds on average for a single CP, on top of the normal damage you do from their attacks. And rough riders look like they're going to be an auto-take unit even without the stratagem.

Flakk Barrage is way better than the old storm trooper option. Shooting with a single infantry squad with short-ranged weapons and only its plasma guns to effectively engage vehicle targets was unlikely to do anything. Shooting with a Hydra that now shoots twice against aircraft with even better accuracy and can hit anything on the table has a good chance of at least bracketing the target and Hydras look like a pretty appealing pick in the new codex. If aircraft are significant in the meta you're going to be using this every turn.

Yeah, some of the pure damage buff stratagems are gone but those aren't really necessary anymore. You don't need LFR or grenadier gimmicks in a codex where the base performance of your units is at proper 9th edition levels.

Very good thinking on the Sentinels strat, would work particularly well with the Obsec tank order. Although unless the opponent has been able to completely box out the objective, with sentinals speed you'd very often be able to get a foot somewhere on the objective during normal movement, still I imagine this could come up regularly enough and will make a strong difference in the secondary game. Cheers for pointing this out.

I agree that Relentless was one of the good few ones to stay, and it got the buff for being able to be used on SHs.

The +2S on thunderous charge will certainly make a difference, although I doubt I'll ever be running squads of 10 - they have too weak a defensive profile and too large bases to be able to hide 10 of these behind obscuring, even on the LGT style terrain layout. I think it'll be more common that we will be seeing 3 squads of 5 not squads of 10, so they can more easily hide behind obscuring, just to ensure their safety from being shot off the board before they do anything. So looking at 3-4 MWs on the charge. This was one I was happy with tbf.

Flakk Barrage is entirely reliant on the opponent having a flyer, starting that flyer in reserve and the fact you've bought a Hydra. Previously they just had to arrive within admittedly much shorter distance, but with any unit, and a Scion unit's firepower is definitely something that makes anyone think twice about doing so. The new strat is significantly stronger against flyers without a doubt, but most units arriving from reserve aren't flyers. If it said Fly keyword, it would be much more useful.

Taking out almost every single shooting damage strat is huge for many units though. My 3 Quad mortars for example were quite efficient with Load Fire Reload and Vengence for Cadia in taking out back sitting Plague Burst Crawlers in my most recent game (2 in 2 turns with overkill) and demolished most factions (non MEQ) infantry with reroll 1s to hit and Load Fire Reload, without the strats they are pretty 'meh' (certainly not competitive), particularly for 270pts. Now don't get me wrong - Scions have had huge buffs, but Killing Zone was a massive strat for taking down tough units and worked well particularly with giving the first squad Point Blank Efficacy to ensure they made that first casualty for the rest to then benefit. Take cover being an order rather than a strat prevents a unit gaining an order buff and then being more resilient on an objective. Losing Unquestioning Obedience is my biggest loss for when playing a full Scions list, but that was crazy strong tbf. Daring Descent is another crazy strong one that I expected we would lose. Confused as to why the old 1CP Lambdan Lion strat is now 2 CP and has also been nerfed with a cap. Overlapping Fields of Fire was spectacular for Cadians too and really helped their Infantry and Artillery actually do some decent damage.

A new codex should mean we branch into other units and playstyles and I'm all for that, but many guard units relied heavily on strats. I like that we can use quite a few units that were not exactly spectacular before, but now some units that we did use regularly are now much poorer without access to the strats. More than any faction aside from maybe Tau, Guard needs to do most of their damage in shooting, and it now seems we have very few strats to facilitate that. Although overall, outside of strats, Guard do seem a lot stronger.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Flakk Barrage is entirely reliant on the opponent having a flyer, starting that flyer in reserve and the fact you've bought a Hydra. Previously they just had to arrive within admittedly much shorter distance, but with any unit, and a Scion unit's firepower is definitely something that makes anyone think twice about doing so. The new strat is significantly stronger against flyers without a doubt, but most units arriving from reserve aren't flyers. If it said Fly keyword, it would be much more useful.

I'd rather have a strong but niche anti-flyer option than a more general option that is completely ineffective. Bracketing a flyer as soon as it arrives with a full round of shooting is better than shooting a couple of plasma guns (and some ineffective lasguns at more than half range) at -1 BS, especially when the strength of storm troopers is as MSU suicide deep strike threats rather than keeping large squads to screen your army.

And yeah, they have to arrive from reserve, but what's the biggest drawback of things like Tau bombers? Being a high priority T6/4+ target that can be shot from anywhere on the table regardless of terrain. The threat of the Hydra stratagem gives the Tau player three options if they don't win the roll to go first: deploy the bombers turn 1 and lose them, come out of reserves on turn 2 and get bracketed or even killed by the Hydra, or hold them until other units kill all of the Hydras. Even if you never get to use the stratagem its mere existence has forced the bombers to hide and forfeit multiple turns of shooting.

A new codex should mean we branch into other units and playstyles and I'm all for that, but many guard units relied heavily on strats.

Key point: relied, past tense. This is an entirely new codex and how things used to work doesn't matter anymore. Who cares if we don't have a stratagem for an automatic 12 shots on a LRBT when the main gun has been so significantly buffed? I'd rather have D6+3 shots at flat D3 than 12 shots with DD3 and half the movement distance. I'd rather have 24 shots from a Wyvern with the tank order to count a 10-man target as 11+ models than 4D6 shots with LFR. Who needs Daring Descent when you have 24" range on everything and don't need to arrive inside 9" to get double shots anymore? Overall we're doing a lot more with base datasheets and don't rely nearly as much on stacking up stratagem buffs on the 1-2 units that don't suck.

I massively prefer less killing related strats and more power rolled into the datasheets of units/guns and have them priced appropriately.

Strats should be a nice seasoning, they do not offer enough meaningful counter play to be allowed to be the trump card/ basis of buff layer stacking and have the game feel meaningfully interactive.

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
I massively prefer less killing related strats and more power rolled into the datasheets of units/guns and have them priced appropriately.

Strats should be a nice seasoning, they do not offer enough meaningful counter play to be allowed to be the trump card/ basis of buff layer stacking and have the game feel meaningfully interactive.

And that's why I prefer them to be things that open up special moves or things like that. Not blanket buffs to all attacking or the like. Or just giving out a few mortal wounds. A few mortal wounds just doesn't have much of an impact on the game and it feels pretty arbitrary. Things like Take Cover (exchanging your shooting for better cover) for instance is much more interesting because it gives a choice. Even things like slowing down enemies by some kind of pinning effect from artillery or the like would be much more interesting than just delivering extra wounds.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Flakk Barrage is entirely reliant on the opponent having a flyer, starting that flyer in reserve and the fact you've bought a Hydra. Previously they just had to arrive within admittedly much shorter distance, but with any unit, and a Scion unit's firepower is definitely something that makes anyone think twice about doing so. The new strat is significantly stronger against flyers without a doubt, but most units arriving from reserve aren't flyers. If it said Fly keyword, it would be much more useful.

I'd rather have a strong but niche anti-flyer option than a more general option that is completely ineffective. Bracketing a flyer as soon as it arrives with a full round of shooting is better than shooting a couple of plasma guns (and some ineffective lasguns at more than half range) at -1 BS, especially when the strength of storm troopers is as MSU suicide deep strike threats rather than keeping large squads to screen your army.

And yeah, they have to arrive from reserve, but what's the biggest drawback of things like Tau bombers? Being a high priority T6/4+ target that can be shot from anywhere on the table regardless of terrain. The threat of the Hydra stratagem gives the Tau player three options if they don't win the roll to go first: deploy the bombers turn 1 and lose them, come out of reserves on turn 2 and get bracketed or even killed by the Hydra, or hold them until other units kill all of the Hydras. Even if you never get to use the stratagem its mere existence has forced the bombers to hide and forfeit multiple turns of shooting.

A new codex should mean we branch into other units and playstyles and I'm all for that, but many guard units relied heavily on strats.

Key point: relied, past tense. This is an entirely new codex and how things used to work doesn't matter anymore. Who cares if we don't have a stratagem for an automatic 12 shots on a LRBT when the main gun has been so significantly buffed? I'd rather have D6+3 shots at flat D3 than 12 shots with DD3 and half the movement distance. I'd rather have 24 shots from a Wyvern with the tank order to count a 10-man target as 11+ models than 4D6 shots with LFR. Who needs Daring Descent when you have 24" range on everything and don't need to arrive inside 9" to get double shots anymore? Overall we're doing a lot more with base datasheets and don't rely nearly as much on stacking up stratagem buffs on the 1-2 units that don't suck.

(Sorry for the mass quote - on my phone)

With the Flakk option, if going pure Scions previously, being able to shoot oncoming reserves meant that your whole army had pretty damn strong protection against DS and Charge. Although I take your point about the Tau Bomber.

Daring Decent wasn't good because of extra hotshots or even melta range (although these could be a boon), it was good because barely any opponent can screen out a 5" DS across half the board and so they practically guaranteed you the full 12VP on RND plus extra VPs for Boots on the Ground (particularly if a unit was a CS with a banner) that the opponent had pretty much no chance at stopping.

I agree that there have been some excellent and much needed buffs to the data sheets according to the leaks but that doesn't stop the strats feeling lacklustre. Just a couple of decent damage ones for shooting would be enough not the plethora we had before. And when considering non damage ones - Daring Descent, Unquestioning Obedience, Take Cover, Cadia Stands and Inspired Tactics were all excellent and there is nothing that is similar to a single one of them. Most (not all) of the leaked new ones just feel a bit 'meh'.

Poly Ranger wrote:

Daring Decent wasn't good because of extra hotshots or even melta range (although these could be a boon), it was good because barely any opponent can screen out a 5" DS across half the board and so they practically guaranteed you the full 12VP on RND plus extra VPs for Boots on the Ground (particularly if a unit was a CS with a banner) that the opponent had pretty much no chance at stopping.

Maybe giving guard access to so strong automatic secondaries isn't exactly best game balance ideas with all the buffs...

Or do you want IG to be Votann 2 and have it nerfed before book comes even out?-)

Fair point. It did involve having to take a non optimal subfaction to access previously but that wouldn't be the case now. I didn't think we would keep that one tbf, same with Vengeance for Cadia and Unquestioning Obedience. Those 3 were too powerful to stay. But the strats seem to have gone more than just one step down imo.

Can I ask where you guys got the leaks for the new strats?

Mordian Glory has been the main source. Auspex has also done videos based off Mordian Glory's leaks. Every reveal so far has matched up exactly with what the leaks we're all the way down to every stat point.
Blood of Kittens goes even further and has an article which also includes points costs and a description of rules as well as every new and changed weapon stat, although I don't think they have strats.

How were Scions improved?

EviscerationPlague wrote:
How were Scions improved?

Upsides for Scions according to the leaks:
-Hotshots gained 6" (so Iotan Dragons trait). This means ability to deepstrike into double tap and for Scions that start on the board to actually be a danger T1 in combination with the new FRFSRF.
-Gained exploding 6's (So Iotan Gorgonnes trait but without it's restriction), at base without rerolls this is the equivalent of +1bs but gets around things such as transhit
-Gained being able to move with HSVGs without -1to hit now that they are RF2 (so half the Kappic Eagles trait)
-With the new 'take aim' order they gain +1ap and +1 to hit (so the Lambdan Lions trait and the other half of the Kappic Eagles trait without having to disembark), -3ap is very significant in the meta and this order will benefit Scions far more than grunt guard where -1ap isn't that great
-Command Squads gained LOS which is huge considering the secondaries Inflexible Command and Boots on the Ground. That vox is staying alive far longer to give a bigger IC bubble and if the squad drops in the opponents deployment with a standard for Boots, if it's supported with other squads it'll now take more than a glare to remove them, racking up more VP. They also gained a FNP from the medic
-Taurox Prime's came down in price by 1/6 and their HSVGs gained 2 extra shots per gun in short range
-Valkyries weapons got huge buffs and Grav Shoot Insertion was reduced to 5" for Scions
-Scion squads themselves came down in points if going exactly 10 or 5. Now they will cost 110points. Currently 4 plasma/melta cost 130 whilst 4 HSVGs cost 110. Now you have to have a mix, so a squad of 2 plasma and 2 melta is 20 points cheaper whilst a squad of 2 plasma and 2 HSVGs is 10 points cheaper.
-Traits such as move and disembark, +4" range, don't count as moving with heavies when combined with FRFSRF work quite well with the Scions, if the +1S against Monsters and Vehicles works with shooting, this would be an interesting one for them too.

Downsides for Scions according to the leaks:
-Only 2 of the same special per squad of 10. From a rules perspective this isn't that bad. If you do the Maths, HSVGs and Plasma are pretty close in damage output against most units so 2 Plasma and 2 HSVGs really isn't hamstringing a squad that badly.
-Command Squad and Tempestor Prime wrapped into one and increased by a massive 30pts, I personally think this is far too much an increase
-Tempestor Prime lost access to 2 orders without a relic, this is quite big
-Gattling Cannon went down to 12 shots (but gained ap-1), but bear in mind the HSVGs on it gained 4 shots altogether, so trading 20 st4 shots for 12 st4 ap-1 and 4 st4 ap-2. Not sure if that's even a downside personally.

Also potentially, although we won't know until we see the dex, Scions may have lost the ability to receive an order on the drop. This will be big if it's the case and hopefully GW have thought ahead about this.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Just a couple of decent damage ones for shooting would be enough not the plethora we had before.

But why do we need them? Is the shooting in the new codex not good enough without stratagem buffs? It feels like you're evaluating the new stratagems based on how they would buff the 8th edition units and what those units would need, and I agree that they probably fall short there. But it's a whole new game now and it's the new codex that matters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
-Valkyries weapons got huge buffs and Grav Shoot Insertion was reduced to 5" for Scions

Is it 5"? The leaks I'm looking at say it's outside 6". Going down to outside 5" would be a huge difference since then you'd be able to drop within bonus melta damage range.

With the nerf to Guard issue weapons, Command squads are essentially a worthless investment. No, I don't need a sniper or a flamer. And no, I don't need a medic, or a flag, or a vox operator anymore.

The new Primaris Psyker's look great though!

Poly Ranger wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
How were Scions improved?

-Gained exploding 6's (So Iotan Gorgonnes trait but without it's restriction), at base without rerolls this is the equivalent of +1bs but gets around things such as transhit
-Traits such as move and disembark, +4" range, don't count as moving with heavies when combined with FRFSRF work quite well with the Scions, if the +1S against Monsters and Vehicles works with shooting, this would be an interesting one for them too.

Huh, from what I read the trait they get IS the exploding 6s. Weapon restrictions are still garbage though.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
And no, I don't need a medic, or a flag, or a vox operator anymore.

You don't need a flag in the old codex. With it being a re-roll 1s to wound aura in the new codex you need one now.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Just a couple of decent damage ones for shooting would be enough not the plethora we had before.

But why do we need them? Is the shooting in the new codex not good enough without stratagem buffs? It feels like you're evaluating the new stratagems based on how they would buff the 8th edition units and what those units would need, and I agree that they probably fall short there. But it's a whole new game now and it's the new codex that matters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
-Valkyries weapons got huge buffs and Grav Shoot Insertion was reduced to 5" for Scions

Is it 5"? The leaks I'm looking at say it's outside 6". Going down to outside 5" would be a huge difference since then you'd be able to drop within bonus melta damage range.

You're right it is 6" not 5". Although you could still get melta range with heirloom weapons doctrine.

As to the damage strats, just having 1 or 2 would be nice to have something to increase that firepower when it is needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
And no, I don't need a medic, or a flag, or a vox operator anymore.

You don't need a flag in the old codex. With it being a re-roll 1s to wound aura in the new codex you need one now.

Plus lets not forget Boots on the Ground and Inflexible Command. You really really want those flags and walkies for those!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
How were Scions improved?

-Gained exploding 6's (So Iotan Gorgonnes trait but without it's restriction), at base without rerolls this is the equivalent of +1bs but gets around things such as transhit
-Traits such as move and disembark, +4" range, don't count as moving with heavies when combined with FRFSRF work quite well with the Scions, if the +1S against Monsters and Vehicles works with shooting, this would be an interesting one for them too.

Huh, from what I read the trait they get IS the exploding 6s. Weapon restrictions are still garbage though.

Not from what I've seen, apparently they get the doctrines too. We will know for certain when it is released.

A con I forgot was that having the weapon cost baked in means you are discouraged from taking full las or squads of 6-9.
A pro I forgot was that they have easy access to reroll auras.

Poly Ranger wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
How were Scions improved?

Upsides for Scions according to the leaks:
-Hotshots gained 6" (so Iotan Dragons trait). This means ability to deepstrike into double tap and for Scions that start on the board to actually be a danger T1 in combination with the new FRFSRF.

Sadly double tap from deepstrike is equal to giving them FRFSRF after deepstrike currently. Not a massive change there.

New FRFSRF is worse than the current one. 27 shots with -1 to Hit is 13.5 hits, 18 shots with the new Take Aim is 15 hits + the additional AP.

Jarms48 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
How were Scions improved?

Upsides for Scions according to the leaks:
-Hotshots gained 6" (so Iotan Dragons trait). This means ability to deepstrike into double tap and for Scions that start on the board to actually be a danger T1 in combination with the new FRFSRF.

Sadly double tap from deepstrike is equal to giving them FRFSRF after deepstrike currently. Not a massive change there.

New FRFSRF is worse than the current one. 27 shots with -1 to Hit is 13.5 hits, 18 shots with the new Take Aim is 15 hits + the additional AP.

Except you don't need an Order to do so. By themselves, that's strictly superior and you couldn't argue otherwise.

Jarms48 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
How were Scions improved?

Upsides for Scions according to the leaks:
-Hotshots gained 6" (so Iotan Dragons trait). This means ability to deepstrike into double tap and for Scions that start on the board to actually be a danger T1 in combination with the new FRFSRF.

Sadly double tap from deepstrike is equal to giving them FRFSRF after deepstrike currently. Not a massive change there.

New FRFSRF is worse than the current one. 27 shots with -1 to Hit is 13.5 hits, 18 shots with the new Take Aim is 15 hits + the additional AP.

As EviscerationPlague has pointed out - you needed an order to do so. Now you don't so you can give them additional buffs with an order. In fact it's possible to get all the previous damage orders onto a unit of Scions (even a version of EP is accessible with Old Grudges) because they are either buffs or Auras not Orders now, plus you can then put on one of the new orders.

As to FRFSRF you would have to spec into it by taking the move and fire with heavies doctrine. I personally won't be doing that as I think the move and disembark is incredibly powerful and those two don't massively syncronise. But it is an option that other players have access to and may take.

I would have preferred the old FRFSRF admittedly but you can definitely build into the new one easily.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Mordian Glory has been the main source. Auspex has also done videos based off Mordian Glory's leaks.

Yup. Stop giving Auspex Tactics views.

I'm slowly starting to dislike Mordian now. It's all several hour long live streams and less 10-30 minute videos.

I prefer Auspex for just giving me the data.

Jarms48 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
How were Scions improved?

Upsides for Scions according to the leaks:
-Hotshots gained 6" (so Iotan Dragons trait). This means ability to deepstrike into double tap and for Scions that start on the board to actually be a danger T1 in combination with the new FRFSRF.

Sadly double tap from deepstrike is equal to giving them FRFSRF after deepstrike currently. Not a massive change there.

New FRFSRF is worse than the current one. 27 shots with -1 to Hit is 13.5 hits, 18 shots with the new Take Aim is 15 hits + the additional AP.

Brutal Strength offsets the -1 to Hit when using FRFSRF, but you won't need to drop them within 12" anymore either - you could put them 23" away and benefit from FRFSRF even more!

So it becomes 27 shots at 23" for 18 hits... Versus 9 shots with Take Aim (or 18 if within 12") for 7.5 hits or 15 hits in RF range...

I'm curious to find out if the Industrial Efficiency rule still only applies to Vehicles now that Armor of Contempt is a thing, or if it can be applied to infantry as well? Because if it can be placed on Infantry... Geez... Scions in cover gaining a 3+ against AP-1 and AP0 weapons...