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Personaly I would propose to GW that for 10th AP -X should be reserved only for Heavy weapons and Super Heavy weapons, and the Signiture anti tank cannons

so all infantry carried Weapons would Lose ther AP. the logic being that a creatures armour save is it's chance to resist max caliber 'smallarms'
If a weapon is perticulry known for AT, say fushion pistols/melta guns then they get a AP-1, but there not Assault/Rapid fire. since that is the role of a HW

Heavy weapons of any type get AP -1, to represent they biger caliber rounds or massed ammo, and again AT weapons such as the lascannon/Melta get another bonuse -1. the important thing is that these big AT hits are Heavy 1, 2 at best for Superfiring weapons Like the Eldar Lance's.

Super Heavy weapons Start with AP-2, CUss there masive weapons, and then deveate from there. Angain spesific AT weapons get that bonuse -1AP.

the slack in veriaty of case use could easly be taken up by agjusting the Number of shots, Strenght and damage a weapon does to keep them fealing unquie. while without pushing AP mod's.

What's your goal here? The problem being addressed or the intended benefit of the change? What you've got here seems like it would create a lot of problems, and I'm personally not seeing any upsides.

Morty_Jhones wrote:
Personaly I would propose to GW that for 10th AP -X should be reserved only for Heavy weapons and Super Heavy weapons, and the Signiture anti tank cannons

so all infantry carried Weapons would Lose ther AP. the logic being that a creatures armour save is it's chance to resist max caliber 'smallarms'

40k includes things like inferno bolt weapons, tau breacher guns, those vespid guns, and plenty of other weapons whose intended role is to bypass the armor of heavy infantry. Marine armor might be intended to handle "max caliber" infantry portable weapons, but it's really not designed to handle dark reaper or shadow specter guns. Do you feel that a plasmagun should be no better at penetrating power armor than a normal bullet fired from an autopistol? Or if you think a plasma weapon counts as being "anti tank", then do you feel a meltagun and plasma gun are equally good at getting through tank armor?

If a weapon is perticulry known for AT, say fushion pistols/melta guns then they get a AP-1, but there not Assault/Rapid fire. since that is the role of a HW

Not sure what you're trying to say here. Meltaguns are currently assault weapons. Fire dragons being able to run around killing tanks with their man-portable weapons is an established thing. It's their whole thing.

Heavy weapons of any type get AP -1, to represent they biger caliber rounds or massed ammo, and again AT weapons such as the lascannon/Melta get another bonuse -1. the important thing is that these big AT hits are Heavy 1, 2 at best for Superfiring weapons Like the Eldar Lance's.

So a heavy stubber should be better at getting through infantry armor than an inferno bolter or shining spears laser lance? Heavy/assault/rapid fire are rules used to represent how wieldy or unwieldy a weapon is; not how much punch the weapon packs. A plasma pistol and a plasma cannon are both shooting plasma at their target; it's just that one comes in a package you can wield one-handed.

the slack in veriaty of case use could easly be taken up by agjusting the Number of shots, Strenght and damage a weapon does to keep them fealing unquie. while without pushing AP mod's.

Eh. Not really. AP is already one of the only things keeping some weapons from feeling too samey. Removing one of the differentiators between those weapons means that you just render one of the weapons a more clearcut winner/loser, and the loser becomes less desirable. Further, putting more responsibility on Strength/shots to keep weapons feeling unique is likely to result in a cascade of changes that basically make you overhaul every weapon in the game if you want to avoid making things even more redundant than they currently are.

What was your ultimate goal here? It feels like you're trying to address something specific and going about it in an inefficient way.

IMO there are two things they can do -

1: reduce ap to 0 for all standard arms and only have a maximum of ap-3 for the heaviest weapons

2: separate ap effects to appropriate unit vs weapon - anti infantry weapons with AP don't modify vehicle or monster saves.

Thus you can have special ammo and weapons with AP amongst anti infantry weapons without it needing to be balanced against taking out vehicles.

a melta gun would be AP-3 but anti-tank so would modify vehicle saves.

An inferno bolt might be AP-1 but anti-infantry so ONLY modifies infantry saves.

A kraken penetrator round might be AP-1 but Anti Tank, thereby affecting all unit saves.

Controlling the use and max of AP values and separating them into effect bands does a lot to rebalance the game without doing a whole lot.

 Hellebore wrote:

a melta gun would be AP-3 but anti-tank so would modify vehicle saves.

I'm impressed by how bad an idea this is.

How does a Melta beam not get through Flak armor but go through a tank?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

a melta gun would be AP-3 but anti-tank so would modify vehicle saves.

I'm impressed by how bad an idea this is.

How does a Melta beam not get through Flak armor but go through a tank?

I thought the inference was obvious but clearly not.

AT modifiers affect all saves, AP modifiers only affect infantry saves.

You can also add TK titan killer weapons, so AT are relegated to vehicle/monster and down allowing Titanic saves, while TK weapons affect all saves.

It makes balance easier - especially with larger units that are going to be less affected by mass infantry fire.

So you want to spend more time arguing about whether monstrous creatures (and dreadnoughts and other walkers) should be treated as tanks or infantry.

Because that's what happens when you try to separate out the modifiers based on those categories.

 solkan wrote:
So you want to spend more time arguing about whether monstrous creatures (and dreadnoughts and other walkers) should be treated as tanks or infantry.

Because that's what happens when you try to separate out the modifiers based on those categories.

Monsters are already lumped in with vehicles for virtually everything except for a couple of special rules like poison and haywire.

So I'd expect they are treated the same in this regard. As it's based on armour scale - bigger things have thicker armour in a different scale to just 3+ vs 4+.

I'd be fine with Hellebore's pitch. I'm not totally sold on some of the details, but I don't think having separate AP stats for big things and little things is unreasonable. I don't know if the benefits would be huge, but it seems fine.

I don't think I've ever seen someone make a solid argument for monsters not being treated as vehicles, so I'd be inclined to just lump them in with vehicles.

It's reasonable enough to me that my shurikens and inferno bolts are good at getting through power armor but not tank armor.

Of course,l I think a stronger argument could be made for just backing off on how freely AP is given out in general. Or even for getting rid of the to-wound roll entirely and treating armor/AP as modifiers to a single "defense roll." But that's a whole other can of worms.

Still curious as to what the OP's goals were.

A truly excellent suggestion!

I am NOT looking forward to all the upcoming 2+ shooting AP-3 24" HSLGs rapid firing on the drop...

Dropping them to AP0 would bring them back in line with the original Hellguns from 3E...

And they were boring and useless back then, the Stormtroopers might as well be using generic lasguns, I think it's a good thing they're getting some close back to bieng AP 3 like 5E, that actually made the Hellguns an actual distinctive weapon, with a rarely seen profile of low Str but with high AP. You can even keep the 18'' range.

 Bobthehero wrote:
And they were boring and useless back then, the Stormtroopers might as well be using generic lasguns, I think it's a good thing they're getting some close back to bieng AP 3 like 5E, that actually made the Hellguns an actual distinctive weapon, with a rarely seen profile of low Str but with high AP. You can even keep the 18'' range.

Why not make it AP -1 but give it HH'2 breaching ?