Poll |
 |
|
 |
Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 17:42:21
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
|
Lord Damocles wrote:We know that GW have deliberately made new releases overpowered in the past; and I see no reason to believe that they'd have stopped doing that just because NuGW have a Twitter account or whatever.
Whether they make entire books overpowered is another matter.
what was the latest new model that was released overpowered?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 18:06:09
Subject: Re:Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
alextroy wrote:Asenion wrote:Lammia wrote:Asenion wrote:ccs wrote:Short answer: Yes.
Longer answer: Entire armies/Codex? Not usually. Happens though at times. Specific units, often the new hotness? Hell yes. Gotta sell those models....
I've been watching them do this for all 29 years & some odd months I've been playing this game.
The new twist to it in recent years is the blatant bait & switch that comes shortly after release nowdays.
How is this not false advertising?
'Never atribute to malice, that which can be sufficently explained by stupidity.'
GW have only recently begun to try and really understand how their game plays out 'in the wild.' The whole 'conspiring to sell new models' ignores the large number of models that manage to be truly unplayable on release as well as some of the oldest kits having some of the best rules at times.
Sorry but if it Talks like a Duck, Walks like a Duck and Quacks like a Duck - it's probably a Duck.
I could see this happening once or twice with a small business but for a multimillion dollar company to keep making the same mistakes over and over which just happen to, by coincidence, sell more product eventually we have to call a Spade a Spade.
Trust me when I say the used car salesman didn't sell you that lemon out of naive innocence.
Funny thing about the Duck Fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test
GWs ability to constantly fail to sell a new model due to underpowered rules while overpowering rules for models people already have is all the proof you need to know that GW isn't doing it on purpose.
Did you read your own link? Because otherwise it seems like you are engaged in bait and switch yourself.
The duck test is a form of abductive reasoning, usually expressed as "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."
It says it's abductive reasoning, not a fallacy:
Abductive reasoning (also called abduction,[1] abductive inference,[1] or retroduction[2]) is a form of logical inference formulated and advanced by American philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce beginning in the last third of the 19th century. It starts with an observation or set of observations and then seeks the simplest and most likely conclusion from the observations.
How is that a fallacy? Should I presume malice or?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Crispy78 wrote:Generally I think they write like a pack of over-excited 12 year olds going "wouldn't it be cool if..."
I also think their in-house testing is super non-competitive, and they just don't see blatantly overpowered stuff like liquifiers plus dark technomancer in the DE codex because, despite creating the combo with the "wouldn't it be cool if" mentality, they then only take one in a list instead of cramming in as many as will fit in a 2000 point army.
That said, there have definitely been examples where it has been admitted that things have been overpowered or under-costed to drive sales, eg the eldar wraithknight on it's initial release...
Wait, they even admitted it? Automatically Appended Next Post: Dysartes wrote:Crispy78 wrote:That said, there have definitely been examples where it has been admitted that things have been overpowered or under-costed to drive sales, eg the eldar wraithknight on it's initial release...
Do we have any other known examples? The Wraithknight is one, but I don't recall any others where we know there was meddling to drive sales.
Oh geez....
" How do you know they are bank robbers?"
"They admitted to robbing a bank.*
" Oh geez besides that one bank!"
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/12/13 18:10:05
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 18:15:53
Subject: Re:Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Sneaky Lictor
|
I am going to go with no because I think that it is colossal incompetence more than it is intentionally overpowering units. There are so many units that have been release that are utter garbage on release and continue to stay that way. Pyrovores are a perfect example of this. How about Reivers? Hell most of the Beast Snaga stuff is terrible and it is the new hotness for Orks.
If GW writes rules to sell models they are as incompetent at that as they are at most everything else.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 18:15:53
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Karol wrote:You would be suprised how many people buy the models to play the game. Not many people that like the model, buy 9 void weavers or buy out dark eldar raiders online.
Exactly. Do they honestly think anyone would by dozens of Guardsmen or Space Marines without the game? Yeah right.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 18:18:51
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
VladimirHerzog wrote: Lord Damocles wrote:We know that GW have deliberately made new releases overpowered in the past; and I see no reason to believe that they'd have stopped doing that just because NuGW have a Twitter account or whatever.
Whether they make entire books overpowered is another matter.
what was the latest new model that was released overpowered?
Do you really believe Votaan were about to be released as is because they thought it would be balanced?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 18:33:58
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
EviscerationPlague wrote: VladimirHerzog wrote: Lord Damocles wrote:We know that GW have deliberately made new releases overpowered in the past; and I see no reason to believe that they'd have stopped doing that just because NuGW have a Twitter account or whatever.
Whether they make entire books overpowered is another matter.
what was the latest new model that was released overpowered?
Do you really believe Votaan were about to be released as is because they thought it would be balanced?
It's funny because all these people literally screaming GW purposely op'ed Votann "just to be greedy" are now the first to argue GW would never imbalance the game. It's almost like multiple personality disorder.
In any case they are ignoring a lot of context:
- GW not letting people play their own games in their own gaming stores.
- GW trying to sabotage other game stores with price hikes made with barely any warning that can badly damage their sales.
- GW being so extreme they tried to ban models from games and tournaments that weren't painted with official GW paint.
Also this claim that people don't buy models for the game is so ridiculous. Yeah, the Necron players buys like 50 of the same model just for decoration. Sure.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/13 18:36:16
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 18:35:27
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
|
EviscerationPlague wrote: VladimirHerzog wrote: Lord Damocles wrote:We know that GW have deliberately made new releases overpowered in the past; and I see no reason to believe that they'd have stopped doing that just because NuGW have a Twitter account or whatever.
Whether they make entire books overpowered is another matter.
what was the latest new model that was released overpowered?
Do you really believe Votaan were about to be released as is because they thought it would be balanced?
oh, right, Votann were busted (and got day -1 nerfed).
what new model was OP before that?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 18:38:55
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
VladimirHerzog wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote: VladimirHerzog wrote: Lord Damocles wrote:We know that GW have deliberately made new releases overpowered in the past; and I see no reason to believe that they'd have stopped doing that just because NuGW have a Twitter account or whatever.
Whether they make entire books overpowered is another matter.
what was the latest new model that was released overpowered?
Do you really believe Votaan were about to be released as is because they thought it would be balanced?
oh, right, Votann were busted (and got day -1 nerfed).
what new model was OP before that?
After pre-orders were made of course.
Also you keep ignoring how Forge-World models are consistently underpowered. I mean what a coincidence - the products GW do not get direct profit from just by sheer chance tend to be weaker units.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 18:49:10
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
|
Asenion wrote:
After pre-orders were made of course.
Also you keep ignoring how Forge-World models are consistently underpowered. I mean what a coincidence - the products GW do not get direct profit from just by sheer chance tend to be weaker units.
ok, i'll ask again : what other new model were OP before votann?
Oh and FW and GW are the same entity btw....
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 18:53:51
Subject: Re:Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Arbiter_Shade wrote:I am going to go with no because I think that it is colossal incompetence more than it is intentionally overpowering units. There are so many units that have been release that are utter garbage on release and continue to stay that way. Pyrovores are a perfect example of this. How about Reivers? Hell most of the Beast Snaga stuff is terrible and it is the new hotness for Orks.
If GW writes rules to sell models they are as incompetent at that as they are at most everything else.
My best example is the first Ogre Kingdoms armybook. Brand new faction, huge, entirely new line of models. Completely unplayable for the entire lifespan of the armybook, because apparently, the only place in the world where somebody was using monstrous rank&file units in 6th was GW headquarters.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/13 18:55:00
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 18:55:46
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
VladimirHerzog wrote:Asenion wrote:
After pre-orders were made of course.
Also you keep ignoring how Forge-World models are consistently underpowered. I mean what a coincidence - the products GW do not get direct profit from just by sheer chance tend to be weaker units.
ok, i'll ask again : what other new model were OP before votann?
Oh and FW and GW are the same entity btw....
You do realize their NEWEST MODEL is the centerpiece of a new Over-Powered Combo right?
https://youtu.be/gOFloa7bBzU
Lord Solar, part of "a horrendous damage dealing Alpha Strike with no counters..."
Wow, so their very latest model is OP, you claim their second latest SET of DOZENS of models were OP, but that won't count if their 3rd fourth back was not, and if that is we go 4 parts back, then 5!
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/13 18:56:05
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 18:56:36
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot
|
I believe the melter primaris were completely invalidating any vehicle in the beginning of 9th.
But the only way to get them was via the launch box. I don't recall how the worked after the codex and standalone box got released, tough.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 18:56:37
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
|
Karol wrote: Gert wrote:Karol wrote:You would be suprised how many people buy the models to play the game. Not many people that like the model, buy 9 void weavers or buy out dark eldar raiders online.
I really wouldn't because the number of people who buy models to Meta chase are a tiny fraction compared to those who buy models to just build and paint.
@SgtCortez
Agreed.
If that was true GW would be making models for painters and builders. Yet all they do with how the game looks, the models are cut etc is not being build or paint friendly. And again painters don't buy whole armies every quarter seson or more often. It may change when 3d printing goes full capacity and the war ends. But hey everyone is allowed to have a view on things. No matter who it is, there is a group of people between 10 to 15% who are buying 80% of all models and out of those a 1-2% are buying 80% of those 80%.
Asenion wrote:Karol wrote:You would be suprised how many people buy the models to play the game. Not many people that like the model, buy 9 void weavers or buy out dark eldar raiders online.
Exactly. Do they honestly think anyone would by dozens of Guardsmen or Space Marines without the game? Yeah right.
The entirety of my Primaris Salamanders(7k-ish pts)would like to say hello. They're never gonna see the table, that's the job of my MKIII/ VI's. I like the models and that's about it.
The game is like 4th or 5th on the list of stuff I DO like about 40k. It's an interactive and fun thing to do with my well painted miniatures rather than just sitting in a display cabinet(which is also fine).
I can understand people who only like the game and any degree in between. But don't act like it's the only way to hobby.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 19:02:06
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
|
Asenion wrote: VladimirHerzog wrote:Asenion wrote:
After pre-orders were made of course.
Also you keep ignoring how Forge-World models are consistently underpowered. I mean what a coincidence - the products GW do not get direct profit from just by sheer chance tend to be weaker units.
ok, i'll ask again : what other new model were OP before votann?
Oh and FW and GW are the same entity btw....
You do realize their NEWEST MODEL is the centerpiece of a new Over-Powered Combo right?
https://youtu.be/gOFloa7bBzU
Lord Solar, part of "a horrendous damage dealing Alpha Strike with no counters..."
Wow, so their very latest model is OP, you claim their second latest SET of DOZENS of models were OP, but that won't count if their 3rd fourth back was not, and if that is we go 4 parts back, then 5!
no, i've been implying that if 3 new models are OP out of 500, and that old models are given OP stats (flamers), the premise that GW purposely makes new stuff OP is false.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 19:06:30
Subject: Re:Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Cyel wrote:Arbiter_Shade wrote:I am going to go with no because I think that it is colossal incompetence more than it is intentionally overpowering units. There are so many units that have been release that are utter garbage on release and continue to stay that way. Pyrovores are a perfect example of this. How about Reivers? Hell most of the Beast Snaga stuff is terrible and it is the new hotness for Orks.
If GW writes rules to sell models they are as incompetent at that as they are at most everything else.
My best example is the first Ogre Kingdoms armybook. Brand new faction, huge, entirely new line of models. Completely unplayable for the entire lifespan of the armybook, because apparently, the only place in the world where somebody was using monstrous rank&file units in 6th was GW headquarters.
I don't get it. We know GW tends to be control freaks in their stores and at their tournaments. Nothing happens without an army of spies reporting every nose blown and leg scratched.
But we're to believe when they make products all of a sudden they turn into hippy, libertarian Dudes from the "Big Lebowski" and have no oversight or micromanaging at all.
As for when they mess up, that could well be cause they're cheap. Even the greediest people can mess up in big ways sometimes by cutting corners and being cheap. Cheap and Greedy tend to go hand in hand more often then not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Racerguy180 wrote:Karol wrote: Gert wrote:Karol wrote:You would be suprised how many people buy the models to play the game. Not many people that like the model, buy 9 void weavers or buy out dark eldar raiders online.
I really wouldn't because the number of people who buy models to Meta chase are a tiny fraction compared to those who buy models to just build and paint.
@SgtCortez
Agreed.
If that was true GW would be making models for painters and builders. Yet all they do with how the game looks, the models are cut etc is not being build or paint friendly. And again painters don't buy whole armies every quarter seson or more often. It may change when 3d printing goes full capacity and the war ends. But hey everyone is allowed to have a view on things. No matter who it is, there is a group of people between 10 to 15% who are buying 80% of all models and out of those a 1-2% are buying 80% of those 80%.
Asenion wrote:Karol wrote:You would be suprised how many people buy the models to play the game. Not many people that like the model, buy 9 void weavers or buy out dark eldar raiders online.
Exactly. Do they honestly think anyone would by dozens of Guardsmen or Space Marines without the game? Yeah right.
The entirety of my Primaris Salamanders(7k-ish pts)would like to say hello. They're never gonna see the table, that's the job of my MKIII/ VI's. I like the models and that's about it.
The game is like 4th or 5th on the list of stuff I DO like about 40k. It's an interactive and fun thing to do with my well painted miniatures rather than just sitting in a display cabinet(which is also fine).
I can understand people who only like the game and any degree in between. But don't act like it's the only way to hobby.
I didn't realize the company was called "Hobby Workshop".
I for some reason thought they made "Games". You know being GAMES Workshop and all.
In fact one of their original products before WH was Hero Quest. Did people buy that just for miniatures too?
Also "The Hobby" as if painted models or playing War Games only began with GW selling Space Marines. Trust me pal, both those things existed long before GW! Other games and models might not exist in your mind but in the whole world they certainly do. Oh wait but you're "THE Hobby".
Okay Big Rooster.
|
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/12/13 19:14:47
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 19:22:42
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Mighty Vampire Count
|
I don;t think that they are that concerned about the rules....
|
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page
A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 19:22:44
Subject: Re:Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Fresh-Faced New User
|
Asenion wrote:Cyel wrote:Arbiter_Shade wrote:I am going to go with no because I think that it is colossal incompetence more than it is intentionally overpowering units. There are so many units that have been release that are utter garbage on release and continue to stay that way. Pyrovores are a perfect example of this. How about Reivers? Hell most of the Beast Snaga stuff is terrible and it is the new hotness for Orks.
If GW writes rules to sell models they are as incompetent at that as they are at most everything else.
My best example is the first Ogre Kingdoms armybook. Brand new faction, huge, entirely new line of models. Completely unplayable for the entire lifespan of the armybook, because apparently, the only place in the world where somebody was using monstrous rank&file units in 6th was GW headquarters.
I don't get it. We know GW tends to be control freaks in their stores and at their tournaments. Nothing happens without an army of spies reporting every nose blown and leg scratched.
But we're to believe when they make products all of a sudden they turn into hippy, libertarian Dudes from the "Big Lebowski" and have no oversight or micromanaging at all.
As for when they mess up, that could well be cause they're cheap. Even the greediest people can mess up in big ways sometimes by cutting corners and being cheap. Cheap and Greedy tend to go hand in hand more often then not.
Let's just say everything you write is fact. That's fine, no need for discussion.
What kind of action does this result in?
What are you doing now regarding your 40k gaming habits, because of your knowledge?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 19:25:30
Subject: Re:Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
myUserName wrote:Asenion wrote:Cyel wrote:Arbiter_Shade wrote:I am going to go with no because I think that it is colossal incompetence more than it is intentionally overpowering units. There are so many units that have been release that are utter garbage on release and continue to stay that way. Pyrovores are a perfect example of this. How about Reivers? Hell most of the Beast Snaga stuff is terrible and it is the new hotness for Orks.
If GW writes rules to sell models they are as incompetent at that as they are at most everything else.
My best example is the first Ogre Kingdoms armybook. Brand new faction, huge, entirely new line of models. Completely unplayable for the entire lifespan of the armybook, because apparently, the only place in the world where somebody was using monstrous rank&file units in 6th was GW headquarters.
I don't get it. We know GW tends to be control freaks in their stores and at their tournaments. Nothing happens without an army of spies reporting every nose blown and leg scratched.
But we're to believe when they make products all of a sudden they turn into hippy, libertarian Dudes from the "Big Lebowski" and have no oversight or micromanaging at all.
As for when they mess up, that could well be cause they're cheap. Even the greediest people can mess up in big ways sometimes by cutting corners and being cheap. Cheap and Greedy tend to go hand in hand more often then not.
Let's just say everything you write is fact. That's fine, no need for discussion.
What kind of action does this result in?
What are you doing now regarding your 40k gaming habits, because of your knowledge?
Whatever I feel like.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 20:10:38
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
VladimirHerzog wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote: VladimirHerzog wrote: Lord Damocles wrote:We know that GW have deliberately made new releases overpowered in the past; and I see no reason to believe that they'd have stopped doing that just because NuGW have a Twitter account or whatever.
Whether they make entire books overpowered is another matter.
what was the latest new model that was released overpowered?
Do you really believe Votaan were about to be released as is because they thought it would be balanced?
oh, right, Votann were busted (and got day -1 nerfed).
what new model was OP before that?
The only reason for the nerf was because of threats to not let people play the army in tournaments and boycotting the release in general. Did you forget about all that?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 21:08:19
Subject: Re:Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
|
If i recall didn't GW offer refunds or cancellations of the LOV stuff? The backlash regarding their power was that extreme.
But i'll be honest, this feels like a case of developer intention vs end user ability to break things.
GW wants to give a faction a few fancy rules, thinks people will enjoy them. Players day one find a way they will interact that negatively affects the game. IE, grudge tokens allowing for automatic mortal wounds. They attempt to correct, over do it with the points corrections before the faction is even released proper. I've had it happen while playing orks multiple times.
Yes it feels like these things are getting more extreme, and if you're not on the bandwagon faction of the week it kinda sucks to feel weaker and weaker as time goes on. But I don't think it's intentional any more than I think poor balancing in a video game is intentional. Most likely cause, not being willing to spend the time to stress test with a wide audience. Possibly due to costs or the wish to make every release a surprise.
Now that's something i think GW is intentionally doing, keeping releases hidden for as long as possible to try and shift a little more of a given SKU, even if that item is about to be made redundant like a codex. I swear it's happened to me at least once.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 21:24:37
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
The Votann "army box" went on pre-order on 17th September. 2 characters, 20 troops and 3 bikes. The whole roster was then nerfed on 29th September - presumably due to the backlash over the codex's perceived power (and seriously some of the points were just nuts).
The bulk of the Votann roster however wasn't available for pre-order until a month later, on 29th October.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/13 21:25:01
Subject: Re:Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Preparing the Invasion of Terra
|
Asenion wrote:I didn't realize the company was called "Hobby Workshop".
I for some reason thought they made "Games". You know being GAMES Workshop and all.
In fact one of their original products before WH was Hero Quest. Did people buy that just for miniatures too?
Also "The Hobby" as if painted models or playing War Games only began with GW selling Space Marines. Trust me pal, both those things existed long before GW! Other games and models might not exist in your mind but in the whole world they certainly do. Oh wait but you're "THE Hobby".
Okay Big Rooster.
Apple does not sell fruit.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/14 01:54:16
Subject: Re:Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Calm Celestian
|
Gert wrote:Asenion wrote:I didn't realize the company was called "Hobby Workshop".
I for some reason thought they made "Games". You know being GAMES Workshop and all.
In fact one of their original products before WH was Hero Quest. Did people buy that just for miniatures too?
Also "The Hobby" as if painted models or playing War Games only began with GW selling Space Marines. Trust me pal, both those things existed long before GW! Other games and models might not exist in your mind but in the whole world they certainly do. Oh wait but you're "THE Hobby".
Okay Big Rooster.
Apple does not sell fruit.
Dude missed the Kirby years, the lead up to the Kirby years... Automatically Appended Next Post: Brickfix wrote:I believe the melter primaris were completely invalidating any vehicle in the beginning of 9th.
But the only way to get them was via the launch box. I don't recall how the worked after the codex and standalone box got released, tough.
That was and still is a vehicle problem.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/14 02:26:20
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/14 06:39:46
Subject: Re:Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
|
Gert wrote:Asenion wrote:I didn't realize the company was called "Hobby Workshop".
I for some reason thought they made "Games". You know being GAMES Workshop and all.
In fact one of their original products before WH was Hero Quest. Did people buy that just for miniatures too?
Also "The Hobby" as if painted models or playing War Games only began with GW selling Space Marines. Trust me pal, both those things existed long before GW! Other games and models might not exist in your mind but in the whole world they certainly do. Oh wait but you're "THE Hobby".
Okay Big Rooster.
Apple does not sell fruit.
Plus games workshop owns/is paired with citadel miniatures , who claim credit for a lot of the sculpts right up to early 40k days.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/14 07:30:42
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
|
Mr Morden wrote:I don;t think that they are that concerned about the rules....
Yeah, I couldn't give a feth about rules and at this point care less about gw kits since 3d printer goes printyprint. But still buy the plastic I like.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/14 09:02:51
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Guarding Guardian
Italy
|
Short answer: yes, they do.
Long answer: Every codex they've published has seen an increase in strength, with a few exceptions over the years, but sometimes that leads to overwhelming situations that aren't fun, without going that far with editions, does anybody remember what happened when Did the Drukhari Codex come out in the 9th edition? Remember the fair complaint of all non-Drukhari gamers? Do you remember which army was at the top in various tournaments around the world? And then we had Custodes, Tau, Orcs, Harlequins, Tyranids, now it's the turn of Votann and Guards, the only army that didn't reflect this trend were the Genestealers cults, I think more for the hard game than anything but maybe I'm wrong.
The good thing nowadays is that GW tries to solve with FAQs, balance dataslates and GT manuals, the most overwhelming thing, the bad is that you need a lot of cards to play.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/14 15:01:59
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Angered Reaver Arena Champion
|
Phoenix Lord wrote:Short answer: yes, they do.
Long answer: Every codex they've published has seen an increase in strength, with a few exceptions over the years, but sometimes that leads to overwhelming situations that aren't fun, without going that far with editions, does anybody remember what happened when Did the Drukhari Codex come out in the 9th edition? Remember the fair complaint of all non-Drukhari gamers? Do you remember which army was at the top in various tournaments around the world? And then we had Custodes, Tau, Orcs, Harlequins, Tyranids, now it's the turn of Votann and Guards, the only army that didn't reflect this trend were the Genestealers cults, I think more for the hard game than anything but maybe I'm wrong.
The good thing nowadays is that GW tries to solve with FAQs, balance dataslates and GT manuals, the most overwhelming thing, the bad is that you need a lot of cards to play.
Orcs never really got the highest heights. They just had a 15 second in the sun with their car park.
You are also missing out on a few books here who were average to subpar or exceptionally short lived.
Death Guard - Have been solidly in the average tier the entire edition. Love the army.
Necrons - Only good now because of changed secondaries. Atrocious at release and the book still struggles on its own.
Every flavor of Space Marine - Got a little use in the beginning but have been struggling the entire edition. You'll see one and one outlier reach for victory, but overall the poster boys - and the army that should be selling the most - isn't really doing well these days.
Knights, Chaos and Imperial - Very much average like Death Guard. Can do good but aren't burning down the house.
Technically Aeldari as the only thing that was OP in the book is Harlequins that used to be its own faction. The rest of the faction hit lower winrates after the secondaries got changed. Slight uptick thanks to Hail of Doom that got reined in rather fast. Now you'll only see Harlequins or Ynnari, with standard Craftworlds rarely in sight. Considering the legacy of Aeldari this book hit the streets and disappeared almost as quickly with the exception of Harlequins who hit everything like a flaming meteorite.
Daemons are very much an average faction if you ignore the Flamers. The book isn't selling much except Flamers. Codex: Flamers of Tzeentch at this point.
Sisters of Battle have also been upper-mid / mid-tier the entire edition. Got propped up by boosted secondaries but aren't really punching up much. They also came with a ton of new units that haven't really moved many boxes.
...and of course GSC as you mentioned.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/14 15:02:20
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/14 15:32:12
Subject: Re:Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Asenion wrote: Dysartes wrote:Crispy78 wrote:That said, there have definitely been examples where it has been admitted that things have been overpowered or under-costed to drive sales, eg the eldar wraithknight on it's initial release...
Do we have any other known examples? The Wraithknight is one, but I don't recall any others where we know there was meddling to drive sales.
Oh geez....
" How do you know they are bank robbers?"
"They admitted to robbing a bank.*
" Oh geez besides that one bank!"
Thank you for conceding the point.
Note that Crispy78's post I was replying to said there were example s where "...it has been admitted that things have been overpowered or under-costed to drive sales..." - but only the Wraithknight is quoted in his example. It's the only one I can recall, too, where we have heard from someone within the Studio at the time - and I can't recall who it was, offhand - that they were originally going to have the Wraithknight cost more points after testing (I think), but were told to keep it at the level it was released at because it would sell more.
To my knowledge - and why I asked the question - that's the only case where we've had that confirmation. For every other case where people may think that it is the case, or believe that it is the case, we've not had that "inside baseball" confirmation.
If, as Crispy78 said, there were example s - note the use of the plural form in the quote, for the hard of thinking - then it shouldn't be so tricky to cite the other cases where this has been admitted, should it?
|
2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG
My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote:This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote:You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling. - No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/14 15:35:38
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
|
Eldarsif wrote:Phoenix Lord wrote:Short answer: yes, they do.
Long answer: Every codex they've published has seen an increase in strength, with a few exceptions over the years, but sometimes that leads to overwhelming situations that aren't fun, without going that far with editions, does anybody remember what happened when Did the Drukhari Codex come out in the 9th edition? Remember the fair complaint of all non-Drukhari gamers? Do you remember which army was at the top in various tournaments around the world? And then we had Custodes, Tau, Orcs, Harlequins, Tyranids, now it's the turn of Votann and Guards, the only army that didn't reflect this trend were the Genestealers cults, I think more for the hard game than anything but maybe I'm wrong.
The good thing nowadays is that GW tries to solve with FAQs, balance dataslates and GT manuals, the most overwhelming thing, the bad is that you need a lot of cards to play.
Orcs never really got the highest heights. They just had a 15 second in the sun with their car park.
You are also missing out on a few books here who were average to subpar or exceptionally short lived.
Death Guard - Have been solidly in the average tier the entire edition. Love the army.
Necrons - Only good now because of changed secondaries. Atrocious at release and the book still struggles on its own.
Every flavor of Space Marine - Got a little use in the beginning but have been struggling the entire edition. You'll see one and one outlier reach for victory, but overall the poster boys - and the army that should be selling the most - isn't really doing well these days.
Knights, Chaos and Imperial - Very much average like Death Guard. Can do good but aren't burning down the house.
Technically Aeldari as the only thing that was OP in the book is Harlequins that used to be its own faction. The rest of the faction hit lower winrates after the secondaries got changed. Slight uptick thanks to Hail of Doom that got reined in rather fast. Now you'll only see Harlequins or Ynnari, with standard Craftworlds rarely in sight. Considering the legacy of Aeldari this book hit the streets and disappeared almost as quickly with the exception of Harlequins who hit everything like a flaming meteorite.
Daemons are very much an average faction if you ignore the Flamers. The book isn't selling much except Flamers. Codex: Flamers of Tzeentch at this point.
Sisters of Battle have also been upper-mid / mid-tier the entire edition. Got propped up by boosted secondaries but aren't really punching up much. They also came with a ton of new units that haven't really moved many boxes.
...and of course GSC as you mentioned.
Tsons also were mediocre on launch if I recall. But the issue is what is defined as " OP", if it's anything punching above 55% WR then it's 50/50 really. I say this becasue 45-55 is the target zone for balanced by GW and oft most peoples loosest definition, so if they come out and land in that zone then they're not " OP" even if they clear 50%.
For the egregious books really its:
- Drukhari
- Admech
- Custodes
- Tau
- Harlies
- Nids
- Votann
There's a question mark for Orks and Daemons for the reasons otherwise mentioned.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/14 15:35:56
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/12/14 16:08:45
Subject: Is GW purposely overpowering new Codex's to drive sales?
|
 |
Not as Good as a Minion
|
It is much more simple, GW does not think in terms of overpowered, balanced or playable
they think in terms of "cool" and "really cool"
so GW working on a factions means they design models they think are "cool", write background they think is "cool" and write rules that fit the model and background while being "really cool"
than they release parts of the new rules ot testers asking them if those new mechanics are cool or really cool and adjust them of needed
and sometimes this turns out to be overpowered, sometimes it is balanced and sometimes it is really bad
but this does not matter because GW thinks those are really cool, and they get confirmation by sales as "the pre-release box sold out, so the community also thinks the new stuff is really cool so everything is fine"
to actually think about something different than "what sounds cool", they would need to play a game (according to the rules, without any houserules) but they don't
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/14 16:10:33
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise |
|
 |
 |
|