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A good psychic discipline meets the following design goals:
*External balance (psychic powers should not inflict infinite mortal wounds).
*Internal balance (every power should be viable or at the very least have a use case where it'd be cool to use).
*Inventiveness and uniqueness (you shouldn't see the exact same power in every psychic discipline and especially not within the same discipline).
*Easy to resolve (roll D6 D6s and for each 6 inflict D6 mortal wounds is a no-no and you shouldn't have to roll 20+ dice).
*Fit the faction flavour.

Witchfire: ??? has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, the closest enemy unit within 12" of and visible to this PSYKER suffers D3 mortal wounds. If that unit contains 11 or more models, that unit suffers D3+2 mortal wounds instead.

This is not unique or inventive, the only thing unique about this power is the name and lore blurb. It does not fit the faction flavour very well, a close-ranged anti-horde power is not very Nurgly or Daemonic.

STREAM OF CORRUPTION

The daemon’s jaws stretch impossibly wide. Its rotten body convulses, heaving out clouds of rancid gas and flies before at last it ejects a jetting river of diseased vomit. So contagious and corrosive is this tide of foulness that those not drowned by it are often dissolved into organic gruel or left stricken by supernatural sickness.

It's very clear that this is a Nurgle Daemon psychic power from the fluff, but not from the crunch. This thread will detail my attempt to implement a mechanic that I think would make the Pandaemoniac Discipline powers fit the faction flavour better and make all the spells more unique and inventive.

PANDAEMONIAC DISCIPLINE

ORANGE FIRE OF TRANSITION
Blessing: Orange Fire of Transition has a warp charge value of 6. Until your next Psychic phase each time a player attemps to manifest a psychic power or Deny the Witch you may subtract 1 from that roll after the roll is made. If the result of the Psychic test for Orange Fire of Transition was 9 or more, you may not subtract 1 from the roll instead you may add 1 to the roll.

YELLOW FIRE OF TRANSFORMATION
Blessing: Yellow Fire of Transformation has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, pick a friendly LEGIONES DAEMONICA TZEENTCH unit within 18" of this PSYKER. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, add 1 to the Strength characteristic of that unit. If the result of the Psychic test was 9 or more, add 1 to the Toughness characteristic of that unit instead.

GREEN FIRE OF MUTATION
Witchfire: Green Fire of Mutation has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, pick an enemy unit within 24" of and visible to this PSYKER. Roll 3D6 for every 5 models in the unit (for example you should roll 6D6 for a unit with 14 models), for each 6+, that enemy unit suffers 2 mortal wounds. If the result of the Psychic test was 9 or more, roll 9D6 instead.

BLUE FIRE OF METAMORPHOSIS
Malediction: Blue Fire of Metamorphosis has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, select one enemy unit within 18" of this PSYKER. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, that enemy unit is not affected by the aura abilities of other enemy units, loses Objective Secured if it has it and cannot gain Objective Secured. If the result of the Psychic test was 9 or more, select one enemy unit more than 18" away from this PSYKER instead.

INDIGO FIRE OF CHANGE
Blessing: Indigo Fire of Change has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, select one friendly LEGIONES DAEMONICA TZEENTCH unit within 18" of and visible to this PSYKER. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, each time a model in that unit makes an attack against a unit other than the closest enemy unit, add 1 to that attack’s wound roll. If the result of the Psychic test was 9 or more, the effect applies to attacks made against the closest enemy unit instead.

VIOLET FIRE OF TZEENTCH
Witchfire: Violet Fire of Tzeentch has a warp charge value of 8. If manifested, the closest enemy unit within 18" of and visible to this PSYKER suffers 3 mortal wounds and each other enemy unit within 3" of that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound. If the result of the Psychic test was 9 or more, the closest enemy unit within 18" of and visible to this PSYKER suffers 1 mortal wound and each other enemy unit within 3" of that enemy unit suffers 3 mortal wounds instead.

A bonus option could be the ability to cast each power twice, with the second casting getting the option you didn't get the first time (so if you cast Violet Fire of Tzeentch on 10 the first time and on 11 the second time you would deal 3 mortal wounds to the closest enemy unit the second time). I think 6 spells is probably enough since Horrors aren't Psykers.

I don't get your point about not being able to tell which army it belongs to. If you have the codex in front of you, why does it matter?

Pandaemoniac seems fine to me, some of the powers you propose are needlessly complicated and in some cases the 9+ effect is more of a drawback.

 Valkyrie wrote:
I don't get your point about not being able to tell which army it belongs to. If you have the codex in front of you, why does it matter?

Pandaemoniac seems fine to me, some of the powers you propose are needlessly complicated and in some cases the 9+ effect is more of a drawback.

It matters because you want to feel the identity of your faction through the rules it has, otherwise, we might as well all use the Space Marines codex and proxy with whatever models we prefer. For Psychic powers there could just be one discipline and everyone could use that and it'd be easier to learn and know what your opponent's stuff does. So if there are to be 15 Psychic disciplines they better be different.

What's most important to get right about a psychic discipline? What do you think makes a perfect psychic discipline? Which powers do you consider to be needlessly complicated? Which 9+ effect is worse?

 vict0988 wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
I don't get your point about not being able to tell which army it belongs to. If you have the codex in front of you, why does it matter?

Pandaemoniac seems fine to me, some of the powers you propose are needlessly complicated and in some cases the 9+ effect is more of a drawback.

It matters because you want to feel the identity of your faction through the rules it has, otherwise, we might as well all use the Space Marines codex and proxy with whatever models we prefer. For Psychic powers there could just be one discipline and everyone could use that and it'd be easier to learn and know what your opponent's stuff does. So if there are to be 15 Psychic disciplines they better be different.

What's most important to get right about a psychic discipline? What do you think makes a perfect psychic discipline? Which powers do you consider to be needlessly complicated? Which 9+ effect is worse?

Because a psychic discipline with Bolt of Change, Boon of Change and Treason of Tzeench could well belong to any army in the game.

Nice strawman argument though on the whole "we might as well all use Space Marines" idea which I never said. If you feel that way then wait until you see Geokinesis, Interromancy and Obsurcation, might be a bit of work having to rewrite it all so I'm sure which army I'm using.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Because a psychic discipline with Bolt of Change, Boon of Change and Treason of Tzeench could well belong to any army in the game.

Nice strawman argument though on the whole "we might as well all use Space Marines" idea which I never said. If you feel that way then wait until you see Geokinesis, Interromancy and Obsurcation, might be a bit of work having to rewrite it all so I'm sure which army I'm using.

You're making a strawman, I did not say everyone could use the Pandaemoniac discipline, I said everyone could use a generic psychic discipline so the names could be lava bolt, biomantic enhancement and mind fog. I did not say your opinion was that if Bolt of Change, Boon of Change and Treason of Tzeentch are not unique, inventive and fit the faction flavour then Daemons of Tzeentch might as well use a generic discipline with lava bolt, biomantic enhancement and mind fog, I said that was MY opinion. Saying my opinion and answering your question does not constitute making a strawman. You accuse me of doing what you yourself are doing.

Being able to tell which army a psychic power belongs to means that it has fulfilled the following design requirements: it is unique, it fits the faction flavour. Treason of Tzeentch is not unique, it also isn't inventive which was another design requirement of mine. Therefore I changed it to Blue Fire of Metamorphosis which is more unique and inventive and fits the faction flavour better. Because no other power can target a unit within 18" unless you rolled 9+ for the test and then it can only target units more than 18" away. Changing from one effect to another on a 9+ is flavour appropriate for the servants of Tzeentch the god of Change whose sacred number is 9. Being more Chaotic and random is flavour appropriate for Daemons. I will change my OP to remove the design requirements for being able to tell a power belongs to a faction.

vict098 wrote:

Being able to tell which army a psychic power belongs to means that it has fulfilled the following design requirements: it is unique, it fits the faction flavour. Treason of Tzeentch is not unique, it also isn't inventive which was another design requirement of mine. Therefore I changed it to Blue Fire of Metamorphosis which is more unique and inventive and fits the faction flavour better. Because no other power can target a unit within 18" unless you rolled 9+ for the test and then it can only target units more than 18" away. Changing from one effect to another on a 9+ is flavour appropriate for the servants of Tzeentch the god of Change whose sacred number is 9. Being more Chaotic and random is flavour appropriate for Daemons. I will change my OP to remove the design requirements for being able to tell a power belongs to a faction.

I agree that the majority of all psychic powers, and pretty much most relics, WTs and other rules, are rather generic in that it's just "do Mortal Wounds". If I had a hand in writing 10th, I'd tone down the prevalence of MWs significantly.

The whole "it has to be random because it's Tzeench/Chaotic" isn't that great either and doesn't make much of a fun game. Thematically yes they're servants of Tzeench, but also ones who have learned and mastered the powers available, so it'd make little sense for them to randomly change that often. Rules-wise, any rules which trigger on a 9+ should, IMO, be in addition to the power, not replacing the power. If I want to do 3 MWs on a unit and I roll a 9+, I'm suddenly only doing 1.

 Valkyrie wrote:

vict098 wrote:

Being able to tell which army a psychic power belongs to means that it has fulfilled the following design requirements: it is unique, it fits the faction flavour. Treason of Tzeentch is not unique, it also isn't inventive which was another design requirement of mine. Therefore I changed it to Blue Fire of Metamorphosis which is more unique and inventive and fits the faction flavour better. Because no other power can target a unit within 18" unless you rolled 9+ for the test and then it can only target units more than 18" away. Changing from one effect to another on a 9+ is flavour appropriate for the servants of Tzeentch the god of Change whose sacred number is 9. Being more Chaotic and random is flavour appropriate for Daemons. I will change my OP to remove the design requirements for being able to tell a power belongs to a faction.

I agree that the majority of all psychic powers, and pretty much most relics, WTs and other rules, are rather generic in that it's just "do Mortal Wounds". If I had a hand in writing 10th, I'd tone down the prevalence of MWs significantly.

The whole "it has to be random because it's Tzeench/Chaotic" isn't that great either and doesn't make much of a fun game. Thematically yes they're servants of Tzeench, but also ones who have learned and mastered the powers available, so it'd make little sense for them to randomly change that often. Rules-wise, any rules which trigger on a 9+ should, IMO, be in addition to the power, not replacing the power. If I want to do 3 MWs on a unit and I roll a 9+, I'm suddenly only doing 1.

I think it'd be reasonable to make a 9+ cast let you CHOOSE from another effect, not just upgrade the existing one.
But it shouldn't be forced.

I'm not sure I 100% agree with the initial goal of making disciplines carry the weight of conveying a faction's fluff. Functionally, a discipline is just the list of psychic tricks a given psyker has access to. I mean, it would be weird if all of a farseer's psychic powers were witchfires, so the powers themselves do carry some of the weight. But I think that mechanics outside of the discipline sthemselves usually do a better job of telling the army's story.

For instance, eldar having wargear that prevents them from dying to perils is a pretty good way of showing how their method of casting is relatively safe compared to humans and orks. Wyrd boyz getting casting bonuses from nearby boys (and also being more likely to blow up as a result) fits the whacky, destructive nature of orks, tells the story of why orks might be a bit hesitant to stand close to a wyrd boy, and gives you some idea of how the Waagh works. Tyranids can (if I'm not mistaken) cast powers through their synapse chain now. Thousand Sons can actively customize their spells with sorcery points as they cast.

I'm not necessarily against adding gimmicks to the disciplines themselves, but I feel like you risk putting unhelpful constraints on yourself by doing it that way.

Also, at the risk of possibly derailing the thread, I'm not sure psychic disciplines have proven to be a very good idea in the first place. When they were introduced in 7th(?), they facilitated the annoying random power generation GW was doing at the time. But nowadays, I don't see a good reason for powers to be split up in groups of (usually) 6 like that. A farseer lost on the path of the seer should probably reasonably be able to cast some of the powers a warlock casts. A Thousand Sons sorcerer should reasonably have had a chance to steal a spell from a cult he doesn't belong to. Powers in general could go back to costing points instead of trying to be equally good, and letting psykers know any number of powers from the ones available (for a points cost) didn't strike me as a problem when we did it in the past.

I also feel like a lot of powers (if not all powers) could reasonably go off automatically without using a psychic test, feel like a lot of non "powers" could be marked with a psychic keyword to let them interact with psychic wargear, and Deny the Witch probably shouldn't be such a big part of the game. But I'm already in the weesd.

 Valkyrie wrote:
If I want to do 3 MWs on a unit and I roll a 9+, I'm suddenly only doing 1.

But you're doing three times as much damage to surrounding units.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I think it'd be reasonable to make a 9+ cast let you CHOOSE from another effect, not just upgrade the existing one.
But it shouldn't be forced.

Why should Tzeentch Daemon powers be more versatile when you high roll? Is there something wrong with it being forced? The 9+ effects are meant to be side-grades instead of upgrades, creating two effects that are exactly equal is impossible, but if for example you think that the +1S from Yellow Fire is completely underwhelming and you'd only ever cast it in the hopes of getting the high roll let me know, I'll buff the effect and maybe increase the WC, because the lower effect being trash isn't intended. I tried putting the better effects at 9+ but it's not going to be better in every situation, which is also why you can subtract 1 from your own rolls with Orange Fire of Transition.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I'm not sure I 100% agree with the initial goal of making disciplines carry the weight of conveying a faction's fluff. Functionally, a discipline is just the list of psychic tricks a given psyker has access to. I mean, it would be weird if all of a farseer's psychic powers were witchfires, so the powers themselves do carry some of the weight. But I think that mechanics outside of the discipline sthemselves usually do a better job of telling the army's story.

For instance, eldar having wargear that prevents them from dying to perils is a pretty good way of showing how their method of casting is relatively safe compared to humans and orks. Wyrd boyz getting casting bonuses from nearby boys (and also being more likely to blow up as a result) fits the whacky, destructive nature of orks, tells the story of why orks might be a bit hesitant to stand close to a wyrd boy, and gives you some idea of how the Waagh works. Tyranids can (if I'm not mistaken) cast powers through their synapse chain now. Thousand Sons can actively customize their spells with sorcery points as they cast.

I think sorcery points should be deleted. I think the game would be better if instead of having 18 powers with generic effects and a mechanic that requires 2 pages to make those 18 generic effects not boring you should just have 9 interesting powers and no extra mechanics to cut down on bloat. That's the same thing I'm doing with my Relics, this is really just a diversion inspired by the Imperial Fists thread and my Thousand Sons Relics which aren't playing nice with the current psychic powers and then I had a fun idea for how to make Pandaemoniac powers more unique and inventive while working on Daemon Relics.

I'm not necessarily against adding gimmicks to the disciplines themselves, but I feel like you risk putting unhelpful constraints on yourself by doing it that way.

I think constraints are good for creativity. Coming up with a way to put a twist on a power if you roll 9+ is very easy, coming up with a unique and inventive power to represent Green Fire of Mutation is hard. Remembering a common gimmick is also easier than remembering unique effects, like remembering that the boosted effect of Will of Asuryan goes off on an 8+ means you cannot slot it into the box of knowing the bonus effects of Fate powers kick off on 10+, exceptions to rules makes the game harder to learn.

...letting psykers know any number of powers from the ones available (for a points cost) didn't strike me as a problem when we did it in the past.

Each psychic power you pick after the first will be less pts-efficient as you have a limited number of powers you can manifest each turn.

 vict0988 wrote:

...letting psykers know any number of powers from the ones available (for a points cost) didn't strike me as a problem when we did it in the past.

Each psychic power you pick after the first will be less pts-efficient as you have a limited number of powers you can manifest each turn.

That seems fine to me.

You gain versatility, but lose relative power.
I'm with Wyldhunt on their suggestion.

As for why a 9+ should be a choice or direct improvement... You have basically no control over what you roll. You just roll 2d6. There's already a chance of failure.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

...letting psykers know any number of powers from the ones available (for a points cost) didn't strike me as a problem when we did it in the past.

Each psychic power you pick after the first will be less pts-efficient as you have a limited number of powers you can manifest each turn.

That seems fine to me.

You gain versatility, but lose relative power.
I'm with Wyldhunt on their suggestion.

As for why a 9+ should be a choice or direct improvement... You have basically no control over what you roll. You just roll 2d6. There's already a chance of failure.

You have basically no control over what you roll, therefore you shouldn't be rewarded for a high-roll and the effect should be a side grade. Both results are supposed to be an equal success, rather than a partial success when manifested on less than 9 (no choice or weaker effect) and a complete success on 9+ (choice or improvement). Am I making sense?

 vict0988 wrote:

You have basically no control over what you roll, therefore you shouldn't be rewarded for a high-roll and the effect should be a side grade. Both results are supposed to be an equal success, rather than a partial success when manifested on less than 9 (no choice or weaker effect) and a complete success on 9+ (choice or improvement). Am I making sense?

I think the issue people are pointing out with Violet Fire is that a high roll can arbitrarily cause the power to not perform the job you need it to do. Yes, you're potentially doing a lot more MWs overall by "splashing" nearby enemies, but you positioned your psyker and opted to use that power because you were hoping to do 3MWs to the closest target. For instance, I might use this power to target a riptide because they're chonky and difficult to hurt. If I roll high on Violet Fire, then it only does 1/3rd as much damage to my intended target. Which would be frustrating (especially because the game usually trains us to think rolling high on a psychic test is a good thing), and that frustration is only salved a little bit by killing some nearby fire warriors we aren't really worried about.

Basically, a 9+ changes the job of the psychic power, functionally removing some of your agency/negating your meaningful decision of putting the psyker where he's standing. It's like if there was a 1/6th chance that your hammerhead wouldn't shoot when you told it to and would instead buff its invuln save for a turn. Getting the invuln save isn't a bad thing, but it's also not what you were trying to do. And if you lose the game because your hammerhead didn't shoot at a key target at a key time, you're not going to feel good about that rule/result.

So in a way, despite the 9+ results potentially being useful, you almost have to think of them as more of a nerf/drawback/built-in weakness of the power than an asset. Which means you're adding rules to make people feel worse about using this discipline. Which can be a valid choice, but it's important to be aware of.

think sorcery points should be deleted. I think the game would be better if instead of having 18 powers with generic effects and a mechanic that requires 2 pages to make those 18 generic effects not boring you should just have 9 interesting powers and no extra mechanics to cut down on bloat.

That's fair, but sorcery points are definitely the most complex example I listed. The rule that says, "your farseer won't perils," does a lot more to convey the fluff of my craftworlders than any of the bonus effects from rolling high on Runes of Fate powers.

I think constraints are good for creativity. Coming up with a way to put a twist on a power if you roll 9+ is very easy, coming up with a unique and inventive power to represent Green Fire of Mutation is hard. Remembering a common gimmick is also easier than remembering unique effects, like remembering that the boosted effect of Will of Asuryan goes off on an 8+ means you cannot slot it into the box of knowing the bonus effects of Fate powers kick off on 10+, exceptions to rules makes the game harder to learn.

All I'm saying is that if your goal is to tell the faction's story and make their psychic abilities feel distinctive, it might be easier/less bloated to do that with a simple rule that lives outside the text of the powers themselves. Again, farseers not dying from perils is a way more fluffy than all the "On an x+..." rules within the Runes of Fate powers themselves. It's less rules, less text, and more effect.

Not saying you can't put the distinctive, flavorful rules in the powers themselves; just suggesting you be open to using all the tools at your disposal to do so. Smarter not harder, right?

The whole idea of the gimmick was that you'd have to play around either being able to select a unit within 18" or more than 18" away, I knew that would be a downside you'd have to play around. I think I'd have to test how much it's possible to line things up such that your Psyker is close enough to buff your Screamers with +1 S or your Lord of Change with +1 T.

There is a pretty big chance that your Farseer isn't going to perils, there's a very big chance your Farseer will cast a power. I don't like the current Fate discipline gimmick.

Do you have an idea for what ability could make Tzeentch Daemon psykers feel more Change-y and chaotic using their current discipline?