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The swarming masses entry in the Tyranid codex states that the units with this trait get to make their attacks if they're within 2.5" of an enemy model.

Would that also mean model of units they're not engaged with? I do not see any restriction that they actually have to be within 2.5" of anyone in the unit(s) they're currently fighting, and 2.5" is beyond the engagement range.

It doesnt say within 2.5" of an enemy model, it says unit. Yes, models in this unit can fight if they are within 2.5" on any enemy units. No need to charge.

SWARMING MASSES
Each time this unit fights, models in this unit can fight if:

They are within Engagement Range of any enemy units.
They are within 2½" of any enemy units.

If, in the Fight phase, this unit is subject to any other rules that would reduce the number of models from this unit that are able to fight, then neither those rules nor the Swarming Masses rule take effect for that phase.

 p5freak wrote:
It doesnt say within 2.5" of an enemy model, it says unit. Yes, models in this unit can fight if they are within 2.5" on any enemy units. No need to charge.

SWARMING MASSES
Each time this unit fights, models in this unit can fight if:

They are within Engagement Range of any enemy units.
They are within 2½" of any enemy units.

If, in the Fight phase, this unit is subject to any other rules that would reduce the number of models from this unit that are able to fight, then neither those rules nor the Swarming Masses rule take effect for that phase.

That is not what that is saying. You still need to charge, be charged, or HI.

"SWARMING MASSES" says "Each time this unit fights, models in this unit can fight if:"

You can't select the unit to fight if it is not in engagement range of an enemy.

Each time this unit fights (yes, it must be eligible to fight) it can fight enemy units within 2.5". If i charge with this unit (or get charged), and i pile in to another enemy unit within 2.5", tyranid models can fight that enemy unit. No need to charge that enemy unit. Or, if an enemy unit moves towards 2.5" of this tyranid unit, models can fight that enemy unit (if the tyranid unit is eligible to fight).

Basically, if this tyranid unit, or an enemy unit for whatever reason moves within 2.5", the tyranid unit can fight against that enemy unit, if its eligible to fight.

 p5freak wrote:
Each time this unit fights (yes, it must be eligible to fight) it can fight enemy units within 2.5". If i charge with this unit (or get charged), and i pile in to another enemy unit within 2.5", tyranid models can fight that enemy unit. No need to charge that enemy unit. Or, if an enemy unit moves towards 2.5" of this tyranid unit, models can fight that enemy unit (if the tyranid unit is eligible to fight).

Basically, if this tyranid unit, or an enemy unit for whatever reason moves within 2.5", the tyranid unit can fight against that enemy unit, if its eligible to fight.

A charging unit can only target its attacks at a unit it charged, or one that performed a heroic intervention. Swarming Masses does not change that.

However, if a unit is charged, and its pile in move brings models within 2.5" of a different enemy unit, those models COULD target that unit.

Simply standing around within 2.5" of an enemy unit will not make a Swarming Masses unit eligible to fight; they still need to be within Engagement Range.

Good old multi-condition answer:

The unit with Swarming Masses may only fight if it is in Engagement Range of an enemy unit or successfully Charged.

When it fights, if it is in Engagement Range of any enemy unit, any model in the unit may attack if it is within 2.5" of any enemy unit, each model directing attacks towards any enemy unit with 2.5" of itself.

However, if the unit charged, it still may only direct attacks to units it successfully charged this turn or that made a Heroic Intervention.

So there are circumstances where it will be possible to direct attacks towards a unit you are not within Engagement Range of. This can only happen due to Heroic Intervention by the unit you are attacking or if you didn't charge that turn and are in Engagement Range of an enemy unit.

I am reading this a bit differently. That all attacks have to go on the charged unit is, IMO, obvious. However, this seems to let you charge one unit, but have some swarming masses models not in 2.5" of the charged unit at the end of the pile-in, but still within 2.5" of another enemy unit that may be nearby without actually engaging it.

It seems that despite this second group of swarming masses models not being near enough to the charged enemy unit, they would still get their attacks on the charged unit.

The rule could be better defined. As written, it is subject to many ambiguities over exactly where the attacks can be allocated.

This rule is very similar to when you are fighting on two sides of a barricade from the terrain section. It is messy but it works functionally fine.

HF_Scorpion wrote:
I am reading this a bit differently. That all attacks have to go on the charged unit is, IMO, obvious. However, this seems to let you charge one unit, but have some swarming masses models not in 2.5" of the charged unit at the end of the pile-in, but still within 2.5" of another enemy unit that may be nearby without actually engaging it.

It seems that despite this second group of swarming masses models not being near enough to the charged enemy unit, they would still get their attacks on the charged unit.

If a unit completes a charge, that unit may only direct attacks against a unit that it charged. Swarming Masses has no impact on this. Swarming Masses simply allows more models to fight; it does not change who is an eligible target.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

If a unit completes a charge, that unit may only direct attacks against a unit that it charged. Swarming Masses has no impact on this. Swarming Masses simply allows more models to fight; it does not change who is an eligible target.

It does change who is an eligible target because it says each time this unit fights, models in this unit can fight if they are within 2.5" of any enemy units.

A bit of a aside bar but do not feed the trolls. Put the trolls on mute. Do not open up posts from the muted forum user. It will make these sections of the forums much more sane.

 p5freak wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

If a unit completes a charge, that unit may only direct attacks against a unit that it charged. Swarming Masses has no impact on this. Swarming Masses simply allows more models to fight; it does not change who is an eligible target.

It does change who is an eligible target because it says each time this unit fights, models in this unit can fight if they are within 2.5" of any enemy units.

incorrect. But you know that.

It doesn't override the charging restriction, becsuse it doesn't say it does.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

If a unit completes a charge, that unit may only direct attacks against a unit that it charged. Swarming Masses has no impact on this. Swarming Masses simply allows more models to fight; it does not change who is an eligible target.

It does change who is an eligible target because it says each time this unit fights, models in this unit can fight if they are within 2.5" of any enemy units.

incorrect. But you know that.

It doesn't override the charging restriction, becsuse it doesn't say it does.

It gives permission to fight an enemy unit within 2.5". If the tyranid unit is eligible to fight it can make attacks against an enemy unit which is within 2.5".

Unless it has another restriction on it.

Don't break rules p5.

 p5freak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

If a unit completes a charge, that unit may only direct attacks against a unit that it charged. Swarming Masses has no impact on this. Swarming Masses simply allows more models to fight; it does not change who is an eligible target.

It does change who is an eligible target because it says each time this unit fights, models in this unit can fight if they are within 2.5" of any enemy units.

incorrect. But you know that.

It doesn't override the charging restriction, becsuse it doesn't say it does.

It gives permission to fight an enemy unit within 2.5". If the tyranid unit is eligible to fight it can make attacks against an enemy unit which is within 2.5".

In order to fight you must pick a target. The first bullet point in the Select Target rule specifies charging units can only target units they declared a charge against this turn. Nothing in the Swarming Masses rule overrides that. All Swarming Masses does is extend the range at which you can fight against an eligible target.

Slipspace wrote:
In order to fight you must pick a target. The first bullet point in the Select Target rule specifies charging units can only target units they declared a charge against this turn. Nothing in the Swarming Masses rule overrides that. All Swarming Masses does is extend the range at which you can fight against an eligible target.

This is 100% correct.

P5, Why are you saying that the rule about selecting targets does not apply? We need a citation from you that specifies you can target something other than what the rules for Select targets says.

Select targets says attacks made by models in units that made a charge move this turn can only target enemy units that their unit declared a charge against, or that performed a Heroic Intervention this turn. If the swarming masses unit didnt charge this turn, but is eligible to fight, it can make attacks against enemy units which are within 2.5".

 p5freak wrote:
Select targets says attacks made by models in units that made a charge move this turn can only target enemy units that their unit declared a charge against, or that performed a Heroic Intervention this turn. If the swarming masses unit didnt charge this turn, but is eligible to fight, it can make attacks against enemy units which are within 2.5".

We were talking about the charging restriction. But you know that.

I suspect you are trolling at this point. If you are, please stop.

Ok, charging restrictions apply, but otherwise the swarming masses unit can attack an enemy unit within 2.5".

Only if they’re eligible to Fight. They’d need a model within ER of an enemy unit for their unit to be eligible to be sel3cted to Fight.

You’ve skipped to Fight without checking if eligible. In your hypothetical “didn’t charge and enemy are >1” but <2.499” away” the unit isn’t eligible to be selected in the first place.

Read first paragraph of the Fight Phase Core Rules “Starting with the player…”

The Swarming Masses rule allows more models in an eligible unit to Fight. It does not change eligibility to Fight or what targets they can pick if eligible.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Only if they’re eligible to Fight. They’d need a model within ER of an enemy unit for their unit to be eligible to be sel3cted to Fight.

I already mentioned fight eligibility multiple times.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

You’ve skipped to Fight without checking if eligible. In your hypothetical “didn’t charge and enemy are >1” but <2.499” away” the unit isn’t eligible to be selected in the first place.

Not true. If my swarming masses unit gets charged by enemy unit A, and i pile in that i get within 2.5" of enemy unit B, my swarming masses unit can fight unit B. I didnt charge with my swarming masses unit, i am eligible to fight because i am in engagement range of unit A, and models in my unit are within 2.5" of enemy unit B.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Read first paragraph of the Fight Phase Core Rules “Starting with the player…”

I suggest the same.

Then you’re just being argumentative for the sake of it. You once again changed a condition of a situation and SHOCK! It changes the result.

Sure, if you’re in ER of one unit and in 2.5” of another you’re eigible to be selected and your supposed killer exploit kicks in. It’s not worth the arguments in this thread or in real life in practise but I can’t fault your very final analysis. But being unclear, changing conditions and moving the goalposts is a poor way to argue. You know that though.

Spend less time dogmatically rebutting and arguing and spend more time reading and listening. And stop moving the goalposts to save face, it’s farcical.

My understanding with this is as follows:

The unit for intial combat needs to follow normal engagement rules. i.e. 1".

BUT

Once the unit is engaged, even just one model that make the unit eligible to fight in the fight phase so thr 2.5" kicks in.

So if you have UNIT A and B and the swarm unit.

UNIT A is charged and the swarm is within 1". After pile ins etc. 3 models get within 2.5" of unit B they can attack unit B.

Because the conditions of engagement have been met and the unit is eligible the 2.5" is just a bubble that applies to all.

Yep, that’s a much clearer, politer and less gotcha/moving goalposts version of what p5 was saying!

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
My understanding with this is as follows:

The unit for intial combat needs to follow normal engagement rules. i.e. 1".

BUT

Once the unit is engaged, even just one model that make the unit eligible to fight in the fight phase so thr 2.5" kicks in.

So if you have UNIT A and B and the swarm unit.

UNIT A is charged and the swarm is within 1". After pile ins etc. 3 models get within 2.5" of unit B they can attack unit B.

Because the conditions of engagement have been met and the unit is eligible the 2.5" is just a bubble that applies to all.

If the Swarm charged Unit A, it cannot direct any attacks to Unit B. Endless Swarm does not negate the Charging units restriction on targeting attacks.

If Unit A is the charger, then the Swarm can attack both Unit A and Unit B.