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I can't find a threat on it, but search might not work with that many terms.

What do you all think of it? My first thought was "Oh Boy!" My second thought was "People are going to fall for the no-Troops trap". My third thought was "They're just giving up on Detachments now.".

I don't think there's a single faction that can't take advantage of it.

It looks like the Brigade Detachement got together with the Outrider, Vanguard and Spearhead Detachments to plagiarize the movie Twins.

But you only get to "spam" the one FOC slot type. i.e. if you take 6+3 Elites you can't take 6 Heavy. If you take 6 Heavy, you only get 3+3 Elites.

Stick a Fork in the Supreme Command Detachment 99 times out of 100 now.

The Rule of Three just got a lot more important.

Knights can now get 6 (Potentially Titanic) LOWs CP Free.

Fortifications still probably don't fit on the board, but at least you're not paying CP for them anymore.

SM are unlikely to care about 4 HQ's (1CM/Chap, 1Cap, 2 LT, and 1 Libby fits but why?) though the three Character Elites sure looks nice - Plus SW/IH Dreads, or BA Elite Slot Jumpers, DA/WS bikers, and so on.

The extra HQ's will be nice for Aeldari, as all the Phoneix Lords are HQs now. If you can Double-Det this one, The All Phoenix Lord Army is now easy peasy to make.

OK Pure Harlequins may not care given how many different data sheets they have and don't have.

Deathguard are probably oozing their excitement as well being in a similar Marine position on Elites(Two+ kinds of Terminators), Elite characters(3+) and primarchs.

If I played World Eaters I'd already be thinking about Angron and a Khorne Lord of Skulls.

If I played Tau I'd be thinking about how to get a few 128's with a couple troops as Knights without the lack of infantry for Actions and Objectives might play.

GSC could load the three Elites slots with the Kellermorphs, and still have 6 left for Aberrants and Purestrains I guess.

If I'm playing Orks, there are some options here that are intruiging - the Elite Character slots maybe. Multiple CP Free LOW slots, a buncha FA slots for minimal Boyz choices,

If I'm playing Nids, I'm probably window shopping on Forgeworld making ridiculous armies in my head because I could have fun with this detachment and Bill Gates' money.

My first impression is this is bad for the game. Free gak and devaluing troops is never good for balance from my perspective.

Also don't really like the prospect of making dual Tau cammanders easier to access. Those things are a real pita.

I agree no troops can be a mistake but I hate gw actually outright making them even more an afterthought for some.

dominuschao wrote:
My first impression is this is bad for the game. Free gak and devaluing troops is never good for balance from my perspective.

Also don't really like the prospect of making dual Tau cammanders easier to access. Those things are a real pita.

I agree no troops can be a mistake but I hate gw actually outright making them even more an afterthought for some.

I liked that part, because it's probably the only way people will learn the lesson. When you make the only "cost" to ignoring troops with this Det the fact that you're missing troops, its going to be hard to blame anything else.

Not taking troops is NOT the end of the world.
You can make plenty of perfectly viable forces based around Elites/Fast/Heavy units. Even LoW....

And you could do so before this detachment. It just cost you CP.
Now it doesn't.

I know this because those are the types of forces I've been generally playing since this edition launched.

ccs wrote:
Not taking troops is NOT the end of the world.
You can make plenty of perfectly viable forces based around Elites/Fast/Heavy units. Even LoW....

And you could do so before this detachment. It just cost you CP.
Now it doesn't.

I know this because those are the types of forces I've been generally playing since this edition launched.

No, its not, but it is (usually) a way to make things more difficult than they need to be. Obvious exceptions being Shenanigans handing out ObSec like Knights, or the DA 1st/2nd Company special rules.

And, as I pointed out that was one of the benefits of this Det. Thematic Lists just got a whole lot easier. Double Det this one, and suddenly you can do RW+DW, or full on Phoenix Lord madness without being taxed for a harder to play list that is more fluffy/thematic.

I am all for thematic lists hell I cut my teeth on DW around 2 decades ago. But blanket approaches feel very governmental to me. Because the game isn't balanced enough and this will break something. Yet again. But maybe I'm just old now lol. I used to hate troops now I hate devaluing them. Fuckit russes and kasrkin spam. That seems cool.

dominuschao wrote:
I am all for thematic lists hell I cut my teeth on DW around 2 decades ago. But blanket approaches feel very governmental to me. Because the game isn't balanced enough and this will break something. Yet again. But maybe I'm just old now lol. I used to hate troops now I hate devaluing them. Fuckit russes and kasrkin spam. That seems cool.

Not really, this one isn't bad. They basically turned all the "specialist" Dets into a mix and match ala carte Det. You can do more with this one than you could have with a Spearhead/Vanguard/Outrider etc, but not much more. The most significant changes are the mix-match part I mentioned 3 of this OR 3 of that, OR 3 of something else etc, and more HQ's and the Elite Characters. I tried making an all Phoenix Lord and Aspect Warrior list and it took 3 Dets. Now it takes two of these. A full Deathwing/Ravenwing list takes one, Combi-wing takes two. If they had rules for Wild Riders Lists it would use this one too. I'd guesstimate 90% of lists will still look the same just without a CP Cost for an Aux Super Heavy Det, or having to play a +3 -3 game with Supreme Command Dets etc. I think this is what they should have had from the beginning instead of Giving you CP for Dets and spawning the Loyal 32, or now making you pay for them and harming the thematic double Det lists.

Edit to Add: I'd also like to see them lean into this Stick Objectives for Troops Choices trial baloon. That's what they've always done wrong about troops anyway - they rarely had a really important reason to take troops over non-troops.

Breton wrote:


The Rule of Three just got a lot more important.

I'm not sure why it's suddenly any more important?

Knights can now get 6 (Potentially Titanic) LOWs CP Free.

This seems a great idea, it wasn't hard to get there before and it just stops the annoying model count brackets on the army construction you invariably only ran into at lower points.

Fortifications still probably don't fit on the board, but at least you're not paying CP for them anymore.

Seems a big positive.

The extra HQ's will be nice for Aeldari, as all the Phoneix Lords are HQs now. If you can Double-Det this one, The All Phoenix Lord Army is now easy peasy to make.

You can't

OK Pure Harlequins may not care given how many different data sheets they have and don't have.

Eh?

Deathguard are probably oozing their excitement as well being in a similar Marine position on Elites(Two+ kinds of Terminators), Elite characters(3+) and primarchs.

They already got extra Elites characters iirc

GSC could load the three Elites slots with the Kellermorphs, and still have 6 left for Aberrants and Purestrains I guess.

can't do that.

If I'm playing Orks, there are some options here that are intruiging - the Elite Character slots maybe. Multiple CP Free LOW slots, a buncha FA slots for minimal Boyz choices,

You mean no boyz choices.

If I'm playing Nids, I'm probably window shopping on Forgeworld making ridiculous armies in my head because I could have fun with this detachment and Bill Gates' money.

wtf?

dominuschao wrote:
My first impression is this is bad for the game. Free gak and devaluing troops is never good for balance from my perspective.

Also don't really like the prospect of making dual Tau cammanders easier to access. Those things are a real pita.

I agree no troops can be a mistake but I hate gw actually outright making them even more an afterthought for some.

If you look at the secondaries there's a lot more incentive for troops. You're also going to need stuff to do actions. Anyone dropping all troops is probably in for a bad time.

I would also like to see the sticky objectives thing become a standard troops rule. I think that would balance lists out quite a bit.

I have looked at the new secondaries but the incentive is just pretty low from my perspective.

Its not that we shouldn't have freedom of choice in list design or that having no troops is the end of the world. But troops are a big part of the identity of a faction. Making them optional is okay but they need more than obsec.

Scoring is the alternative to raw stats and IMO this should be almost exclusively the realm of troops. The sticky objective thing is cool though would dig more of that type of thing.

It feels to me like they want to try a more freeform style of list building. Not sure if it's good or bad yet. I still absolutely hate secondaries though

Doesn't affect me luckily all that since my lists tends to be 1 bat fit(and won't spend money chasing this det which is here for 6 month anyway).

 Daedalus81 wrote:


If you look at the secondaries there's a lot more incentive for troops. You're also going to need stuff to do actions. Anyone dropping all troops is probably in for a bad time.

If there was no rule of 3, it would be very hard to convince a GK player to run strikes over 6 units of interceptors. Especialy when after AoC going away thing like terminators or paladins ain't great or even good. People would probably even run a purgator squad over something like paladins or terminators.
But GK are in a situation where it is better to just wait for the next edition, then buy models wondering if they work or not. It is bad with and without troops.

Hey, Dark Eldar players, remember the special multi-Patrol ability we gave your army to compensate for splitting your already tiny codex into 3 mini-armies that can't play together? Yeah, we just threw it out of the window.

It's okay, though. After the book had already gone to print, someone was kind enough to remind us that your army actually exists so we'll get to fixing that. At some point. In the future. The far future. Maybe. Possibly. Hopefully. In the fullness of time.

...

But you like Space Marines, right? Everyone likes Space Marines. Did you know they get their wargear for free now? So if, in the meantime, you want to, you know, play a proper army... well, we're just saying that the option's there.

 vipoid wrote:
Hey, Dark Eldar players, remember the special multi-Patrol ability we gave your army to compensate for splitting your already tiny codex into 3 mini-armies that can't play together? Yeah, we just threw it out of the window.

It's okay, though. After the book had already gone to print, someone was kind enough to remind us that your army actually exists so we'll get to fixing that. At some point. In the future. The far future. Maybe. Possibly. Hopefully. In the fullness of time.

...

But you like Space Marines, right? Everyone likes Space Marines. Did you know they get their wargear for free now? So if, in the meantime, you want to, you know, play a proper army... well, we're just saying that the option's there.

"Hey this is dark eldar complaining that our 3 mini books are all still as large as many other full armies, plus we now get to whinge about not dominating the game for longer than a year"

I'm poking fun largely, but I do hope they give you a valid way to let you run all your stuff together in one detachment, they could even work in the same minimum requirements that facilitated 3 patrols, maybe call it Realspace Raider or something cool.

But he didn't say anything about dominating. I'm pretty sure he just wants a functioning army.

Anyway, for what it's worth Battlescribe has updated with the Arks of Omen detachment.

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:


The Rule of Three just got a lot more important.

I'm not sure why it's suddenly any more important?

Because 9 Apothecaries would be a little ridiculous.

Knights can now get 6 (Potentially Titanic) LOWs CP Free.

This seems a great idea, it wasn't hard to get there before and it just stops the annoying model count brackets on the army construction you invariably only ran into at lower points.

Fortifications still probably don't fit on the board, but at least you're not paying CP for them anymore.

Seems a big positive.

It is. The quicker they get away from double charging you for army creation the better. Either have us pay in power level, points, or CP, but not 2+ of the three.

The extra HQ's will be nice for Aeldari, as all the Phoneix Lords are HQs now. If you can Double-Det this one, The All Phoenix Lord Army is now easy peasy to make.

You can't

I didn't have the book yet, just the freebies and review/leaks. Where does it say that?

OK Pure Harlequins may not care given how many different data sheets they have and don't have.

Eh?

Pure Harlequinns don't have many data sheets. The FOC chart isn't very restrictive when you rarely run out of slots before sheets. They could be one of the few exceptions to the general benefit here.

Deathguard are probably oozing their excitement as well being in a similar Marine position on Elites(Two+ kinds of Terminators), Elite characters(3+) and primarchs.

They already got extra Elites characters iirc

GSC could load the three Elites slots with the Kellermorphs, and still have 6 left for Aberrants and Purestrains I guess.

can't do that.

Why not? Kellermorph doesn't appear to be unique

If I'm playing Orks, there are some options here that are intruiging - the Elite Character slots maybe. Multiple CP Free LOW slots, a buncha FA slots for minimal Boyz choices,

You mean no boyz choices.

No, I mean minimal. If I'm playing Orks with this Det I still take some boys (Or Grots if I'm doing a theme). (Probably) Less than 3 units, (Definitely) more than zero.

If I'm playing Nids, I'm probably window shopping on Forgeworld making ridiculous armies in my head because I could have fun with this detachment and Bill Gates' money.

wtf?

When I say Bill Gates' money - I'm talking about their Forgeworld LOWs. Mix and match a couple of their behemoth really big Bugs with their little bugs options. I think one of the biggest things this changes is the potential to run a Knights style army the way the knights are in the fluff - Durable and Dangerous LOWs (or Close Enough) with bad (quality, quantity or both) GEQ or worse level infantry support. It pretty much skips over the MEQ statistics band, making many of the anti-MEQ choices either too strong or not strong enough. Some of the other armies had something similar - AM, Tau, etc but the Detachment restrictions got in the way of doing it easily and/or get access through cheap Forgeworld LOWs like Nids. The KV139 and the Warhound (among other FW choices) are between a little and way too expensive to really do this. But the Nid FW LOW's and their already sizable Elite/HS choices are in a points sweet spot.

Breton wrote:

ccs wrote:
Not taking troops is NOT the end of the world.
You can make plenty of perfectly viable forces based around Elites/Fast/Heavy units. Even LoW....

And you could do so before this detachment. It just cost you CP.
Now it doesn't.

I know this because those are the types of forces I've been generally playing since this edition launched.

No, its not, but it is (usually) a way to make things more difficult than they need to be. Obvious exceptions being Shenanigans handing out ObSec like Knights, or the DA 1st/2nd Company special rules.

And, as I pointed out that was one of the benefits of this Det. Thematic Lists just got a whole lot easier. Double Det this one, and suddenly you can do RW+DW, or full on Phoenix Lord madness without being taxed for a harder to play list that is more fluffy/thematic.

The Arks of Omen detachment is designed to work with the Arks of Omen Mission Pack. It only allows you to take 1 Arks of Omen detachment and one (highly limited in choice) Allies detachment. No duel AOO detachment shenanigans are possible.

GSC cannot take duplicate Character units in the same detachment. It's a rule they have in their Dex.

 alextroy wrote:
The Arks of Omen detachment is designed to work with the Arks of Omen Mission Pack. It only allows you to take 1 Arks of Omen detachment and one (highly limited in choice) Allies detachment. No duel AOO detachment shenanigans are possible.

One step forward, two steps back.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also "designed to" or "required to"? It can be used in regular games right? I have pretty much zero interest in AOO games that further artificially restrict and reduce variety and options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


Anyway, for what it's worth Battlescribe has updated with the Arks of Omen detachment.

Is it a Manual Download? My Battlescribe still shows most recent data being from 12/23

I booted it up this morning, didn't do the auto-load, then went to the update and clicked 'refresh' on the 40k one, and after it finished it was there.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I booted it up this morning, didn't do the auto-load, then went to the update and clicked 'refresh' on the 40k one, and after it finished it was there.

Now I see it, I had to close, open, check, cancel the check, and check again later. Probably a cache issue.

Best of all the points updates are there too. Having to keep a calculator running in the other window for the over-under changes of points updates was giving me a headache.

I'd like to see 50% or more of the meta consisting of armies with more than 1 Troops unit, I don't know whether that'll be a problem. I think making allies cost CP instead of costing access to Combat Doctrines is better because Combat Doctrines add a lot of bloat to the game and I still want to keep some form of Stratagems in the game.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But he didn't say anything about dominating. I'm pretty sure he just wants a functioning army.

Anyway, for what it's worth Battlescribe has updated with the Arks of Omen detachment.

Dark eldar only lose ability to have 2 of the 3 in same army without losing stuff.

All 3 in same detachment is 100% possible with new AoO det. GW doesn't even have to release any faq or errata for that one.

 vict0988 wrote:
I'd like to see 50% or more of the meta consisting of armies with more than 1 Troops unit, I don't know whether that'll be a problem. I think making allies cost CP instead of costing access to Combat Doctrines is better because Combat Doctrines add a lot of bloat to the game and I still want to keep some form of Stratagems in the game.

I'll disagree. I think Combat Doctrines/Super Doctrines, Kultures (which REALLY need a rename for over here in the US), Septs and their variants are probably a key to really balancing the factions and subfactions. The problem with them is trying to lift them straight from the Marine Book and Copy and Paste them into another book without more than a minimal substitution for coherency. i.e. changing Marine to Ork. In the case of Orks they shouldn't have been given a mono Clan requirement, they should have been given a Kulture that boosts different units based on the Boss's Pole. There should be a Doctrine for Crusader Armies similar to the Grey Shield thing they did when Indomitus first came out but actually designed for a multi-chapter Crusader force that has a squad of Iron Hands this, and a Squad of Imperial Fists that one that represents a half dozen chapters sending significantly less than a Company to some planet's call for help. And that should be based on your Warlord and their compatibility with the other chapters. And that should have been the basis for the Ork version, or vice versa. But even beyond that, this is the way you have your basic force that makes a basic list, and how you get alternate but still viable lists from the same units under a different (sub)Faction.

Breton wrote:

In the case of Orks they shouldn't have been given a mono Clan requirement, they should have been given a Kulture that boosts different units based on the Boss's Pole.

That's a kink right there

Breton wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
I'd like to see 50% or more of the meta consisting of armies with more than 1 Troops unit, I don't know whether that'll be a problem. I think making allies cost CP instead of costing access to Combat Doctrines is better because Combat Doctrines add a lot of bloat to the game and I still want to keep some form of Stratagems in the game.

I'll disagree. I think Combat Doctrines/Super Doctrines, Kultures (which REALLY need a rename for over here in the US), Septs and their variants are probably a key to really balancing the factions and subfactions. The problem with them is trying to lift them straight from the Marine Book and Copy and Paste them into another book without more than a minimal substitution for coherency. i.e. changing Marine to Ork. In the case of Orks they shouldn't have been given a mono Clan requirement, they should have been given a Kulture that boosts different units based on the Boss's Pole. There should be a Doctrine for Crusader Armies similar to the Grey Shield thing they did when Indomitus first came out but actually designed for a multi-chapter Crusader force that has a squad of Iron Hands this, and a Squad of Imperial Fists that one that represents a half dozen chapters sending significantly less than a Company to some planet's call for help. And that should be based on your Warlord and their compatibility with the other chapters. And that should have been the basis for the Ork version, or vice versa. But even beyond that, this is the way you have your basic force that makes a basic list, and how you get alternate but still viable lists from the same units under a different (sub)Faction.

How does Combat Doctrines help balance Space Marines? Super Doctrines wouldn't be necessary if GW went back to forcing players to cycle through the options. The only reason Super Doctrines were necessary is because otherwise Ultramarines players would stay in Devastator Doctrine all game. How does Chapter Tactics help balance Space Marines?

Sorry but I don't understand how you think the Doctrines would look. I'd love for you to give an example in the Proposed Rules section. It seems like you'd need an overwhelming amount of rules to fix issues that could be solved by not having Chapter Tactics in the first place.

 vict0988 wrote:

How does Combat Doctrines help balance Space Marines? Super Doctrines wouldn't be necessary if GW went back to forcing players to cycle through the options. The only reason Super Doctrines were necessary is because otherwise Ultramarines players would stay in Devastator Doctrine all game. How does Chapter Tactics help balance Space Marines?

Sorry but I don't understand how you think the Doctrines would look. I'd love for you to give an example in the Proposed Rules section. It seems like you'd need an overwhelming amount of rules to fix issues that could be solved by not having Chapter Tactics in the first place.

Well for starters, I'd point out Ultramarines likely want to camp out in Tactical not Devastator: Hand of Dominion, Gauntlets of Ultramar, Heavy Bolt Rifles, Melta Rifles, Combi-Somethings, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Storm Bolters, Occulus Carbines - but still hit them all: Multi-Meltas, (Heavy or Not)Onslaught Gatlings, Lastalons, Astartes Chainswords, Paired Combat Blades, Heavy Bolt Pistols, (Usuallly Master Crafted) Power Swords, Hand of Dominion (Melee), Boltstorm Gauntlets (Melee), Acquittal, and so on.

The second thing I'd do is point out they don't and are not intended to BALANCE Marines, they DIFFERENTIATE them. I'm not sure which rules update you're reading, but the last one I saw from 01/05 says you still have to cycle through them - you can't go from Devastator to Assault. You just get to pick when now. And you're still going to want to. Most lists from most chapters are unlikely to be heavy weapon thick enough to want to stay in Devastator. Some will, Iron Warriors maybe sneaky Speeder heavy Blood Angels and such. By the end of the game you should be in close combat and want Assault Doctrine. And Doctrines are the basis for rules like Speed of the Raven, Fire Discipline, and Implacable for the Dark Angels which helps them use the same pool of units to create a hopefully distinctly different army. Speed of the Raven makes an Outrider squad far more attractive to Dark Angels than Imperial Fists.

One thing I just noticed too - when I make an AOO Det the CP for Battle Size is halved. If I make a list using the AOO Det, I get 6CP for Battle Size, and end up with 5ish after pre-battle spending for Chapter Command and Relics. The Same list with Bat + Supreme Command has 11 CP.

Breton wrote:
One thing I just noticed too - when I make an AOO Det the CP for Battle Size is halved. If I make a list using the AOO Det, I get 6CP for Battle Size, and end up with 5ish after pre-battle spending for Chapter Command and Relics. The Same list with Bat + Supreme Command has 11 CP.

yhea, GW changed that like 6 months ago at the start of neliplhim. they were concerned about people loading up with pre game strats and then going for a 1st turn alpha strike, so they cut the starting CP but you gain a CP on BOTH command phases (Ie, you gain in CP in your opponents as well).

also, you now no longer get a free WLT and Relic, you need to a pay a CP for each.