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Look, I’m not trying to start anything. I just want to know what people think about it. It wouldn’t be that hard to say that scientists or whatever fixed the process so it works on women. Don’t even need to make new models or anything, maybe just some female heads. Yet I know a lot of people seem incredibly opposed to the idea and just want to get an idea of where the community stands on this. Please be civil..

In lore? Nope. The Imperium is supposed to be backwards and nearly incapable of progress, so "it wouldn't be hard to say that they fixed it" is a bit of a cop-out. Especially given we have Caul and the Primaris. If it was a simple fix, it probably would've been discovered over 10k years of research and improvement.

On the tabletop? Feth yeah. I'm in the midst of making a female marine praetor / chapter master with a few bits a friend got me. Do whatever you want on the table top, it doesn't matter.

Not for it but not a hill I'd die on either. Certainly wouldn't turn down a game against a nicely converted army of woman marines.

I'd be fine with it. Say that Cawl, having successfully fulfilled his promise of "improving" marines by creating primaris, has since shifted his focus to doubling the recruitment pool for marines.

Notably, Harrowmaster features some transhuman women with thick armor and big guns. One of the Alpha Legion characters gets snappy about them not being actual astartes. To which their creator basically goes, "Yeah yeah. Whatever."

First off: I'd 100% play against someone's female space marines.

Second? This thread will end as all "female space marines" threads end: locked. Due to the "pro-female space marines" side accusing everyone on the opposing side as being misogynists, and the real misogynists actually showing up and, well, being misogynistic.

This never ends well.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
First off: I'd 100% play against someone's female space marines.

Second? This thread will end as all "female space marines" threads end: locked. Due to the "pro-female space marines" side accusing everyone on the opposing side as being misogynists, and the real misogynists actually showing up and, well, being misogynistic.

This never ends well.

Good to know for the future since I’ve never seen one on here, but if it’s as decisive as mandatory painting, this will be okay for a little while.

In my headcanon they exist, but between hormonal and surgical treatments since before puberty really set in and growing up in a more or less genderless society of battle-brothers you'd have no way to tell unless you got in their pants. Astartes are largely sex- and genderless anyway, and at their size and muscle mass people start to look same-ish no matter what.

Neither for nor against, though I don't particularly see the need. There's a male only faction, a female only faction, several factions that can have both, and several factions that have neither or you can't tell any way.

If they do it, it won't really affect me either way. Assuming that a fe-marine has the same rules as a he-marine it's a purely aesthetic choice that has no bearing on the game. I'd still play against an army of them.

 Kcalehc wrote:
Neither for nor against, though I don't particularly see the need. There's a male only faction, a female only faction, several factions that can have both, and several factions that have neither or you can't tell any way.

If they do it, it won't really affect me either way. Assuming that a fe-marine has the same rules as a he-marine it's a purely aesthetic choice that has no bearing on the game. I'd still play against an army of them.

An issue is that (one of) the male-only factions is Space Marines, who make up approximately half the entire game.
Whereas the two female-only factions are Sisters of Battle, who aren't nearly as prevalent as Marines, and Sisters of Silence, who are literally the smaller half of the Custodes book.

As for Lady Marines in general, I'm all for it. Cawl saying "I managed to double the recruitment pool" is a good explanation, and it will help some people make their models more aligned with what they want.

If people could stick to the topic and avoid derailing the thread by constantly predicting its doom, that would be helpful.

 morganfreeman wrote:
In lore? Nope. The Imperium is supposed to be backwards and nearly incapable of progress, so "it wouldn't be hard to say that they fixed it" is a bit of a cop-out. Especially given we have Caul and the Primaris. If it was a simple fix, it probably would've been discovered over 10k years of research and improvement..

In which case the background angle is 'Over the course of 10k years of research and improvement, Caul tested the process and found that, despite widespread belief that it only worked on males, the process actually worked fine on female subjects, particularly prior to the onset of puberty.' In an Imperium where tinkering with established processes is commonly regarded as Heresy 'Nobody thought to try it until now' is a perfectly valid explanation, particularly when the in-universe reason for it not being done is nonsense.

I'm all for female Astartes. More options are always a good thing.

 insaniak wrote:
If people could stick to the topic and avoid derailing the thread by constantly predicting its doom, that would be helpful.

 morganfreeman wrote:
In lore? Nope. The Imperium is supposed to be backwards and nearly incapable of progress, so "it wouldn't be hard to say that they fixed it" is a bit of a cop-out. Especially given we have Caul and the Primaris. If it was a simple fix, it probably would've been discovered over 10k years of research and improvement..

In which case the background angle is 'Over the course of 10k years of research and improvement, Caul tested the process and found that, despite widespread belief that it only worked on males, the process actually worked fine on female subjects, particularly prior to the onset of puberty.' In an Imperium where tinkering with established processes is commonly regarded as Heresy 'Nobody thought to try it until now' is a perfectly valid explanation, particularly when the in-universe reason for it not being done is nonsense.

I'm all for female Astartes. More options are always a good thing.

The Imprrium turns a blind eye when it works in its favor. Otherwise they probably would’ve destroyed Krieg.

Only if they COMPLETELY re-do all the primaris named units with new names, thus doubling the amount of SM units in the codex. /sarcasm

But yes, this is a much needed change that I hope GW will introduce soon. I honestly feel like they've never been closer.

I'm fairly neutral on the topic.

In principal I agree. Space marines are the closest faction we have to a protagonist. And in a game with some mild role playing elements, it feels unfair to make your protagonist faction exclusionary in some fashion.

But in terms of practicality, I just feel like it would be a little too difficult. After thirty years I think people have strongly internalized the standard space marine. even the primaris received some lukewarm reactions and they were a fairly mild change.

I guess the best example of successful lore changes would be the newcrons? I feel like most people have warmed up to it once some interesting characters were introduced.

I'm surprised more people aren't neutral on the subject. I guess it's more polarized than I thought. That would explain why all these threads end the way they do...

 Mr Nobody wrote:

But in terms of practicality, I just feel like it would be a little too difficult. After thirty years I think people have strongly internalized the standard space marine. even the primaris received some lukewarm reactions and they were a fairly mild change.

Many people dislike change. If Primaris had just been a model update to rescale marines, there would have been far fewer complaints about them. But they changed things in a way people didn't expect, and so some people grumbled about it. And then, as has happened with pretty much every other background change over the last 30 years, it eventually just became the way things are. For most players now, Primaris are just marines. The same would happen here... there would be some initial complaints, and then it would just become a part of the way things are.

People could still build male-only armies if they so choose. They could still continue using their existing armies. But it would give more choice to those who want it, which would be a good thing.

And, honestly, it would fit with the current direction of the fluff... With the Imperium split in half, and the Primarchs returning and bringing a less theology-bound worldview, increasing the recruiting pool seems like a no-brainer.

Tsagualsa wrote:
In my headcanon they exist, but between hormonal and surgical treatments since before puberty really set in and growing up in a more or less genderless society of battle-brothers you'd have no way to tell unless you got in their pants. Astartes are largely sex- and genderless anyway, and at their size and muscle mass people start to look same-ish no matter what.

If 40k was better nuanced, or if you wanted to do a different series with 40k-esque aesthetics, you could absolutely have the Astartes as finding gender and sex confusing (hell, make any social interaction outside of combat or fellow Astartes confusing and awkward). What's the point of providing a gender identity to a weapon, especially one that's been brainwashed into servitude from before they hit puberty and, from the lessons of the Horus Heresy, shouldn't be allowed to interact with the Imperium at large? Remove their overt religious aspects, like the Primaris have mostly done.

You could make the same change to the Sister of Battles, making them the Ecclesiarchy as a whole. Nuns with guns was a fun concept, but I don't see the problem of adding men in power armor to the ranks with Sisters and Brothers. You can still keep the ostentatious religious decoration.

Doing so lets you preserve three "flavors" of Imperial (theocratic, fascist) armies. Space Marines are no-nonsense, "point us at what you want to die", tacticool transhumans. The Ecclesiarchy is fervently religious and has enough weight to equip its soldiers well, but not to the degree of the Astartes. And the Guard serves as the horde aspect, the least equipped and worst morale (comparatively) but the most numerous.

Being fond of the Stormcasts in AoS, I'm actually fine with this.

Come to think of it I came across a charming anime-style fan art of a female Sanguinius having a head ache over Bobbie and Lion not speaking to each other, and would love to see a proper GW licensed model based on it.

Much like Adeptus Sororitas is a sorority, the chapters are a Fraternity... a.k.a. Brotherhood, and referred to as such.

I'm not sure why the criticism side steps this simple fact.

If you want female space marines then it will have to be a sisterhood to fit the lore, not co-ed, but again, there already is a Sisterhood...

so maybe people are asking the wrong question?

 Adeptekon wrote:
Much like Adeptus Sororitas is a sorority, the chapters are a Fraternity... a.k.a. Brotherhood, and referred to as such.

I'm not sure why the criticism side steps this simple fact.

If you want female space marines then it will have to be a sisterhood to fit the lore, not co-ed, but again, there already is a Sisterhood...

so maybe people are asking the wrong question?

Do you understand the difference between Space Marines and Sisters of Battle?

It’s more than just gender. A lot more.

Edit: and why couldn’t Marines be co-ed?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:
Much like Adeptus Sororitas is a sorority, the chapters are a Fraternity... a.k.a. Brotherhood, and referred to as such.

I'm not sure why the criticism side steps this simple fact.

If you want female space marines then it will have to be a sisterhood to fit the lore, not co-ed, but again, there already is a Sisterhood...

so maybe people are asking the wrong question?

Do you understand the difference between Space Marines and Sisters of Battle?

It’s more than just gender. A lot more.

Edit: and why couldn’t Marines be co-ed?

I think I just explained it, and to end. I asked what do you really want from this? Sounds like you want implants, better armor, and so on and so forth.

If it's just to add co-ed marines, then why? I guess all the books will have to be scrubbed of references to "brotherhood".

As far as gender I don't care how a male space marine identifies.

 Adeptekon wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:
Much like Adeptus Sororitas is a sorority, the chapters are a Fraternity... a.k.a. Brotherhood, and referred to as such.

I'm not sure why the criticism side steps this simple fact.

If you want female space marines then it will have to be a sisterhood to fit the lore, not co-ed, but again, there already is a Sisterhood...

so maybe people are asking the wrong question?

Do you understand the difference between Space Marines and Sisters of Battle?

It’s more than just gender. A lot more.

Edit: and why couldn’t Marines be co-ed?

I think I just explained it, and to end. I asked what do you really want from this? Sounds like you want implants, better armor, and so on and so forth.

If it's just to add co-ed marines, then why? I guess all the books will have to be scrubbed of references to "brotherhood".

As far as gender I don't care how a male space marine identifies.

The Sisters of Battle are the Ecclesiarchy's military force. Not their ONLY one, but their main one.
Marines are independent forces, though they do sometimes have ties to Forgeworlds, Inquisition, the Ecclesiarchy, or other such forces in the Imperium.
Sisters are human. Marines are transhuman.
And, for an out of universe reason, Marines are much more open to customization in terms of lore than Sisters are.

And no-you can leave old books as they are. But new books could easily change it.

 JNAProductions wrote:

And no-you can leave old books as they are. But new books could easily change it.

I get all that, I might be new here, but not to the franchise. So back to my question why are we not asking why the Sisters can't be changed? Because lore?

If we can change the lore of the brotherhood, why not the sisterhood?

 Adeptekon wrote:
Much like Adeptus Sororitas is a sorority, the chapters are a Fraternity... a.k.a. Brotherhood, and referred to as such.

I'm not sure why the criticism side steps this simple fact.

If you want female space marines then it will have to be a sisterhood to fit the lore, not co-ed, but again, there already is a Sisterhood...

so maybe people are asking the wrong question?

There are real-life societies and groups where 'brother' or other terms are a title that is independent of the bearer's sex and/or gender, mostly because their role contains an element of seperation from the mundane world to some degree. There's no reason why Marines should not operate on such rules, once you accept the mantle of battle-brother you leave behind all worldly ties and concerns, no matter what you have been before. It's already a thing in the lore for e.g. familial ties or noble titles and such, it does not tax the imagination too much to extend that to social and gender roles as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adeptekon wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

And no-you can leave old books as they are. But new books could easily change it.

I get all that, I might be new here, but not to the franchise. So back to my question why are we not asking why the Sisters can't be changed? Because lore?

If we can change the lore of the brotherhood, why not the sisterhood?

The sisterhood has that huge foundational thing in their background that they basically only exist to exploit a loophole that forbids the ecclesiarchy from employing ''Standing armies of Men at Arms''. You could of course easily erase that.

I don’t mind Misters of Battle.
I would, if they get included, add something that they’re all LEGALLY female. Just to keep skirting that line.

For some, it’d be a tightly-kept secret that they aren’t a woman.
For others, it’d be a weird footnote that they have to be legally women to enlist.
But including men in the Sisters, not a big deal. Especially since you already can, with Ministorum.

Stop feeding the "We already have Female SM, the SoB" crowd of trolls. I really want this to happen, but this entire thread is just troll bait to make the hardcore no crowd get all riled up and start a flame battle.

Pass

Custodes would've been the place to introduce a force of both genetically modified men and women. Like, almost no lore for them existed, so added that bit wouldn't have made anyone care. I would've even supported it.

For Marines? Nah, it's been like that for decades. I'm not in the interest of catering to a few people on Twitter.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Look, I’m not trying to start anything. I just want to know what people think about it. It wouldn’t be that hard to say that scientists or whatever fixed the process so it works on women. Don’t even need to make new models or anything, maybe just some female heads. Yet I know a lot of people seem incredibly opposed to the idea and just want to get an idea of where the community stands on this. Please be civil..

Yes, you are. Yesterday a Youtuber posted an offensive video about female space marines. The backlash has already been significant. No need to bring it here to Dakka Dakka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZatVIVggl0&t=41s

This conversation has made the rounds in a lot of circles. I'm going to give my perspective on it as best I can, since I've seen the arguments from both sides and how they often devolve.

Ultimately, let's remember we're talking about a fictional setting where nothing is concrete. GW are well known for ret-conning and changing the lore as it suits their business model or future plans. They've done it before and will do it again. Nothing is written in stone, no piece of text is gospel, it is FICTION and it is fiction surrounding plastic toy soldiers.

From what I've seen, most people fall into 3 groups in this discussion.
A. People that want female space marines
B. People that do not want female space marines
C. The vast majority of reasonable people that do not really care either way

This particular topic is gaining traction only because the small groups from A and B are getting MIGHTY HEATED. They're slinging a lot of hate, lots of name-calling, lots of political dog-whistling.

I've spoken to people on both sides of the argument, and here's the summary of their tactics on places like Twitter, Facebook, and Reddit: Make the other person look like an idiot.

Is it about building communities where people hobby as they please? No. Is it about expressing your creativity however you wish, or staying faithful to established lore? Nope.

It is about trying to out the other person as X, Y, or Z label.

It doesn't matter which side you're in favor of, it is almost inevitable that someone from the *other* side will get an itch up their butt to respond and argue, and once that happens, congratulations, you're feeding the algorithm. You're clicking on videos, you're following tweets, you're giving the 'content creators' and 'influencers' what they want in terms of ad revenue.

Do I think that GW is going to make female space marines? If it suits their business plans, sure.

Let's think about something real quick: I met a guy who had no idea who Firstborn marines were. He ONLY knew Primaris, because he joined the hobby recently. I'm not going to hate on that guy, it's not his fault, 40k is full of lore nuggets that take years to absorb. The difference between Firstborn and Primaris is simply another one of those lore nuggets. As we get closer to whatever show Henry Cavill and Amazon make, and as GW spreads their IP into different sectors via games, toys, and other content, more people will join the hobby that will have never seen a Firstborn model release that wasn't part of 30k.

GW's plan is always new recruitment. As much as you might hate new players that come in, wide-eyed and ignorant at the game and lore, the fact remains: new players fuel and grow the hobby and community. Every day someone is coming in and asking "can I make my space marines yellow instead of blue like on the box?" and that is a GOOD THING.

Someday in the future, GW may decide to codify female space marines, and then a few years down the road there will be new hobbyists entering the community that will have never known space marines to be only male. That part of the community will grow, and those of us that have been around a longer time will shrink. There will be arguments and hate, just as when Primaris were introduced or when the cover of an Ultramarine book featured a black Ultramarine, and we'll do it all over again if they decide to add female space marines, but eventually those will fall by the wayside and the fanbase will continue to grow regardless, and new players wont know a world that was different.

Again, in my mind, that is a good thing, because without new ideas, new hobbyists, and the money that they bring along, GW stops producing the models that we all love to hate to love.

So let's not beat the dead horse that is... this topic. From what I've seen, most people really just don't care, and most reasonable people will stay out of topics like this. All you're doing is welcoming an argument, political dog-whistling and outing, and a lot of name-calling as soon as someone gets a little too steamed.

 Strg Alt wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Look, I’m not trying to start anything. I just want to know what people think about it. It wouldn’t be that hard to say that scientists or whatever fixed the process so it works on women. Don’t even need to make new models or anything, maybe just some female heads. Yet I know a lot of people seem incredibly opposed to the idea and just want to get an idea of where the community stands on this. Please be civil..

Yes, you are. Yesterday a Youtuber posted an offensive video about female space marines. The backlash has already been significant. No need to bring it here to Dakka Dakka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZatVIVggl0&t=41s

I don’t watch Warhammer videos so I’ve never seen it. I was intrigued about the question because a friend posted a really old (what turned out to be) clickbait video about “10 steps to make female space marines”, it triggered a discussion and I wanted to know what the community thought.

Don’t accuse me of such a thing.

On the table, I really couldn't care less about your headcanon or if you put female heads on your Marines. I'd give you a pass if you'd show up with a collection of pin-up models because that would be too immersion breaking for me.

In the lore... no. I've read most if not all of the past threads about this topic here on Dakka and haven't seen a single post how women could be added to Space Marines in a way that feels organic and not like a forced decision because of reasons.

If your best/strongest argument for this change is that it promotes inclusivity or that it better reflects the modern world, then the past and present Hollywood adaptions of established franchises and their abysmal viewer scores should be a big red flag to you. Forced change without a good script behind it will only alienate long time fans and it is questionable whether more girls are now into Ghostbusters, as an example, after the massive flop movie a few years ago.

I can see how some imperial Cardinal wants to have his own Space Marines but can't get a chapter to follow him. So he would order experiments on willing Sisters to become stronger and faster and all that. First it would result in some kind of freak berserker experiment not unlike Arco flagellants, and, given some time and resources, finally produce some kind of copy Sister Marine. But since Sisters are a more or less completely new line of models, I think "Primaris Sisters" would feel out of place or look weird next to regular seized ones. Especially as they would use the same weapons and armour. They would just be bigger. So I don't see enough design space.

If we want the game to be more inviting for girls and women, I'd rather see female models expanded in armies where it makes sense. Eldar, Guard, Sisters, Inquisition, Squats, Demons, ...

Some novels, animated series, comics and so on with a strong female lead and proper advertisement would go a long way here, imho.

I'm agin it.

I'm happy enough with the lore. I strongly dislike the Necron retcon, and I see no need for change. I accept that others want it: I don't. I do have other female figures (dark eldar in particular) but what does female marines gain? Nothing that I see... but if you want it, go for it.