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As a story arc,it would increase the Space Marines army 100 fold or more to fight off a losing battle.

However, why? Is this a woke thing? Or a way to make GW sell women space marines in a hobby that is 95% male and thus have males fantasize about play them?

Personally, I am neutral on it. So, why not and see where it goes.

Hecaton wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
As in, genetically, it would be MORE difficult to design things that DON'T work in women, than things that do. There are very few genes on the Y chromosome, and they don't do very much,

You're making some assumptions about biology from a very ignorant viewpoint. the Astartes creation process is such sci fi tech that when they say "it only works on male humans" that's fairly plausible.

Not really, because the people who wrote that had no understanding of genetics, how it works, or how little difference there is between men and women. They just started from the phenotype.

Scifi tech would make it easier to make all people this way, not harder. That's my point. There is no logical way you could go about designing augmentation and engineering of the human body in such a way that 'naturally' resulted in only men being compatible. Because women are compatible with everything men are already. You would have to deliberately exclude them in the design process.

My argument isn't whether you could or couldn't exclude women. My argument is that it's not a 'shucks genetics is a bitch' moment where they just ended up that way. It would have had to be a deliberate design decision.

No amount of scifi tech hand waving can generate a naturally exclusionary outcome.

And so, because it would need to be deliberate to happen in the first place, it can also be undone.

I only want female Custodes if I can also get Females of Iron! No wait, Womyn of Iron. And please give my Sisters of Silence the ability to put chemicals in the water, that turn the friggin frogs gay.

I've pruned a lot of inappropriate chatter out of the thread. Once again, folks, the 'fetish' discussion adds nothing productive here. Further posts along that line, or continued personal digs at other posters, will result in suspensions.

 insaniak wrote:
I've pruned a lot of inappropriate chatter out of the thread. Once again, folks, the 'fetish' discussion adds nothing productive here. Further posts along that line, or continued personal digs at other posters, will result in suspensions.

It's the elephant in the room that you're not acknowledging, I'll be honest. Also, there have been plenty of atrocious things said by the pro-female space marine side that I reported that you didn't do anything about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hellebore wrote:
Not really, because the people who wrote that had no understanding of genetics, how it works, or how little difference there is between men and women. They just started from the phenotype.

Did you get your knowledge of human endocrinology from a biology course or a gender studies one?

Is it really so hard to believe that the imperium could have a breakthrough in tech that allows the process to work on females? Add it on as part of a new story so that it doesn’t destroy the lore. Seems like a win-win

Hecaton wrote:


Did you get your knowledge of human endocrinology from a biology course or a gender studies one?

Sounds like you have a particular position on gender studies you don't like and have made many assumptions about arguments put forward as a result. This question clearly implies that bias based on what answer I give.

I have no need to give a justification of my qualifications, as argument from authority is fallacious.

Nothing I have said re human genetics is in any way controversial or even sophisticated:
https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Y-Chromosome-facts

Testosterone interacts with XX people's bodies just as it interacts with XY bodies, regardless of gonad differentiation (ovaries and testes both produce testosterone and the body interacts with it the same way, muscle/hair growth etc).
https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/24/4/466/2424411?login=false

The SRY gene protein causes testes differentiation of primordial gonads. That is the single biggest difference and effect between male and female genetics.



To clarify my position.

I have no issue with the fictional inequality of excluding women from the process of becoming a space marine.

I have an issue with the argument that women can't be space marines, because 'science', as if it in any way actually supports that position.

Human genetics is not any kind of defense for this position.

It should be changed because if not, it will continue to be used as a cudgel against FSM. Without removing that bullet from the chamber, there will still be folks claiming "but muh lore".

If that is it then.. Yeah I am going to continue disagreeing on that argument. Much in the same way someone in historical could criticize your army for not being a proper light mechanical force in a WW2 game or someone pointing out your 14th century army isn't done in the proper color the answer isn't to change the lore or background of it.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Is it really so hard to believe that the imperium could have a breakthrough in tech that allows the process to work on females? Add it on as part of a new story so that it doesn’t destroy the lore. Seems like a win-win

That would work, but then you've got the 'why?'

Why would they want to increase the recruitment pool when the majority of Chapters have plenty of male aspirants already?
Why would any significant number of women be likely to pass the trials ahead of almost certainly physically stronger males?
Why would the Imperium want to risk Marines being able to reproduce?
Why would the Imperium want to change the status quo when one of the central themes of the Imperium is stagnation and slow regression? (/why would the writers want this narratively?)
Why would the Chapters accept such meddling with their precious gene-stock?

The reason for doing it would be almost entirely a meta reason.

 Hellebore wrote:
I have an issue with the argument that women can't be space marines, because 'science', as if it in any way actually supports that position.

Human genetics is not any kind of defense for this position.

Huh? Male and female human bodies are different, they can react differently to the same stimulus, *especially* with respect to hormones. It's very plausible to imagine a process that works successfully on male humans but not on female humans.

There are ways to support that argument with what we know of human biology; the fact that it frustrates you is beside the point.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Is it really so hard to believe that the imperium could have a breakthrough in tech that allows the process to work on females? Add it on as part of a new story so that it doesn’t destroy the lore. Seems like a win-win

That would work, but then you've got the 'why?'

Why would they want to increase the recruitment pool when the majority of Chapters have plenty of male aspirants already?
Why would any significant number of women be likely to pass the trials ahead of almost certainly physically stronger males?
Why would the Imperium want to risk Marines being able to reproduce?
Why would the Imperium want to change the status quo when one of the central themes of the Imperium is stagnation and slow regression? (/why would the writers want this narratively?)
Why would the Chapters accept such meddling with their precious gene-stock?

The reason for doing it would be almost entirely a meta reason.

Because more marines = more forces to fight threats again at the imperium?

ccs wrote:

Lammia wrote:

ccs wrote:

Lammia wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
The more obvious argument in favour of FSM, to me, remains that it doesn't really make much sense for them to not exist.

There is an explanation for why they don't exist though.

And if we immediately jump to 'well that explanation is pseudo-sciency and doesn't work in real life probably'; well then Marines shouldn't exist at all.

 insaniak wrote:
The main argument against (aside from the dislike of change) is the deep seated idea that Marines being an all-boy's club is somehow intrinsic to their identity... which makes some sense when so much of the world today still divides things into pink and blue, but makes much less sense in a future society that doesn't.

Is that/those the main argument(s)? The main argument which I see is that changing canon [for out of universe reasons or otherwise] is generally bad for the coherency of a universe and for player investment (and often for general quality).

It isn't just that people 'dislike change' arbitrarily or because they're all dinosaurs who can't get with the hip new thing.

The so called 'reason' is deeply problematic and unrealistic. So the solution would be to replace it.

If players can't adapt to an altering lore, especially one that changes nothing. We have so many more problems than just Femarines.

Unrealistic? In 40k?? OMG not that!

The key words were 'deeply problematic'. But focus on that, I guess.

Why? I was mocking yet another argument of "realism" in this (or in pretty much any other fantasy/sci-fi) game.
I also don't agree that it's problematic that there's no FM SM. You want a FM SM? Go glue some SoB heads on your minis.

The in universe explaination is deeply problematic for reasons I'm struggling to explain within the confines of this discussion. But you can find the key points elsewhere on the internet.

Marines don't need a head swap. They just need a paragraph of lore to not exist.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

Because more marines = more forces to fight threats again at the imperium?

In which case why not just found more Chapters with male recruits using the existing processes, like they've been shown to do already?

Lammia wrote:
]The in universe explaination is deeply problematic for reasons I'm struggling to explain within the confines of this discussion. But you can find the key points elsewhere on the internet.

Marines don't need a head swap. They just need a paragraph of lore to not exist.

"Deeply problematic" is code for "I find it ideologically reprehensible."

Not everyone shares your ideology. You're going to have to make the argument for your ideology first.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The issue isn't that Marines aren't every possible body type, fitness type, whatever you care to say.
It's that there's a category of people-around half the population, in fact-that GW Canon says cannot ever be part of the flagship army. And some people use that as a metaphorical bludgeon against actual people.

I trust that no one here is in favor of excluding women from the hobby in general-so why not deprive bigots of a tool they can use to influence others?

Then give more support to the other armies with models and fluff. It's not rocket science.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Then give more support to the other armies with models and fluff. It's not rocket science.

They specifically don't want that, it turns out.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The issue isn't that Marines aren't every possible body type, fitness type, whatever you care to say.
It's that there's a category of people-around half the population, in fact-that GW Canon says cannot ever be part of the flagship army. And some people use that as a metaphorical bludgeon against actual people.

I trust that no one here is in favor of excluding women from the hobby in general-so why not deprive bigots of a tool they can use to influence others?

Then give more support to the other armies with models and fluff. It's not rocket science.

In my experience, most female collectors/players seem to gravitate towards Eldar and/or Tyranids; so they're not even going for the game's 'female faction'.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Is it really so hard to believe that the imperium could have a breakthrough in tech that allows the process to work on females? Add it on as part of a new story so that it doesn’t destroy the lore. Seems like a win-win

That would work, but then you've got the 'why?'

Why would they want to increase the recruitment pool when the majority of Chapters have plenty of male aspirants already?
Why would any significant number of women be likely to pass the trials ahead of almost certainly physically stronger males?
Why would the Imperium want to risk Marines being able to reproduce?
Why would the Imperium want to change the status quo when one of the central themes of the Imperium is stagnation and slow regression? (/why would the writers want this narratively?)
Why would the Chapters accept such meddling with their precious gene-stock?

The reason for doing it would be almost entirely a meta reason.

Because more marines = more forces to fight threats again at the imperium?

Marines is just one branch of many, though, and the branches that actually do most of the fighting (Guard, Navy, Admech) are all integrated.

Again, a big part of the issue is the vast overrepresentation of Space Marines.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It should be changed because if not, it will continue to be used as a cudgel against FSM. Without removing that bullet from the chamber, there will still be folks claiming "but muh lore".

If that is it then.. Yeah I am going to continue disagreeing on that argument. Much in the same way someone in historical could criticize your army for not being a proper light mechanical force in a WW2 game or someone pointing out your 14th century army isn't done in the proper color the answer isn't to change the lore or background of it.

WW2 happened. The 14th century happened. The Battle of Macragge did not.

Hecaton wrote:"Deeply problematic" is code for "I find it ideologically reprehensible."

Not everyone shares your ideology. You're going to have to make the argument for your ideology first.

"Give your argument why people shouldn't be transphobic."

Alternatively, no. I don't think anyone on this site needs to justify that, considering it's a baseline level of respect that's required for that.

Hecaton wrote:

Lammia wrote:
]The in universe explaination is deeply problematic for reasons I'm struggling to explain within the confines of this discussion. But you can find the key points elsewhere on the internet.

Marines don't need a head swap. They just need a paragraph of lore to not exist.

"Deeply problematic" is code for "I find it ideologically reprehensible."

Not everyone shares your ideology. You're going to have to make the argument for your ideology first.

Hmmm, ok lets try this... The idea of genetic inclusion/exculusion appeals to people who unironically love the Imperium of Man.

And it costs us nothing to say it's wrong.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Why would any significant number of women be likely to pass the trials ahead of almost certainly physically stronger males?

Space Marines recruit kids, preferably prepubescents so the kids can grow with the implants.
At that age, physical differences between genders are much less significant than at older ages.

The Last Days of Ector novella even had a girl win the selection trial, only to be discarded because girl.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The issue isn't that Marines aren't every possible body type, fitness type, whatever you care to say.
It's that there's a category of people-around half the population, in fact-that GW Canon says cannot ever be part of the flagship army. And some people use that as a metaphorical bludgeon against actual people.

I trust that no one here is in favor of excluding women from the hobby in general-so why not deprive bigots of a tool they can use to influence others?

Then give more support to the other armies with models and fluff. It's not rocket science.

In my experience, most female collectors/players seem to gravitate towards Eldar and/or Tyranids; so they're not even going for the game's 'female faction'.

That's my experience as well.

Side note: Eldar in general deserve some better attention from GW, imo.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

Because more marines = more forces to fight threats again at the imperium?

In which case why not just found more Chapters with male recruits using the existing processes, like they've been shown to do already?

I don’t know, maybe the imperium is using a disproportionate number of males for their armed forces and it’s causing issues with populations and this can rectify it

 Lord Damocles wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The issue isn't that Marines aren't every possible body type, fitness type, whatever you care to say.
It's that there's a category of people-around half the population, in fact-that GW Canon says cannot ever be part of the flagship army. And some people use that as a metaphorical bludgeon against actual people.

I trust that no one here is in favor of excluding women from the hobby in general-so why not deprive bigots of a tool they can use to influence others?

Then give more support to the other armies with models and fluff. It's not rocket science.

In my experience, most female collectors/players seem to gravitate towards Eldar and/or Tyranids; so they're not even going for the game's 'female faction'.

Your experience is similar to mine. I'd add Tau on my end though since the sleeker look, like with Eldar, is liked.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

Because more marines = more forces to fight threats again at the imperium?

In which case why not just found more Chapters with male recruits using the existing processes, like they've been shown to do already?

I don’t know, maybe the imperium is using a disproportionate number of males for their armed forces and it’s causing issues with populations and this can rectify it

How does that make sense?
The Guard, Navy, Mechanicus, etc. are all already mixed forces, and the numbers of Sororitas massively outweigh Astartes.
Also if you're running out of people (which the Imperium clearly isn't) the absolute last thing you'd want to do is start sending your women to fight each other to the death for the chance to become probably infertile soldiers...

This is what I mean about damaging the coherency of a setting by trying to force in background changes which originate divorced from the setting.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

Because more marines = more forces to fight threats again at the imperium?

In which case why not just found more Chapters with male recruits using the existing processes, like they've been shown to do already?

I don’t know, maybe the imperium is using a disproportionate number of males for their armed forces and it’s causing issues with populations and this can rectify it

Given the number of people in the Imperium that seems very unlikely. You could double the number of Chapters and the draw on the greater population would only be in the millions (because many wouldn't make it). Which, to the Imperium is NOTHING.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

Because more marines = more forces to fight threats again at the imperium?

In which case why not just found more Chapters with male recruits using the existing processes, like they've been shown to do already?

I don’t know, maybe the imperium is using a disproportionate number of males for their armed forces and it’s causing issues with populations and this can rectify it

How does that make sense?
The Guard, Navy, Mechanicus, etc. are all already mixed forces, and the numbers of Sororitas massively outweigh Astartes.
Also if you're running out of people (which the Imperium clearly isn't) the absolute last thing you'd want to do is start sending your women to fight each other to the death for the chance to become probably infertile soldiers...

This is what I mean about damaging the coherency of a setting by trying to force in background changes which originate divorced from the setting.

What coherency?GW has never kept things coherent

Hecaton wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
I have an issue with the argument that women can't be space marines, because 'science', as if it in any way actually supports that position.

Human genetics is not any kind of defense for this position.

Huh? Male and female human bodies are different, they can react differently to the same stimulus, *especially* with respect to hormones. It's very plausible to imagine a process that works successfully on male humans but not on female humans.

There are ways to support that argument with what we know of human biology; the fact that it frustrates you is beside the point.

You seem intent on assuming agendas, or ideologies for my arguments - if it comes from 'gender studies' then you can deny it or something?

I'm not 'frustrated' and never said that.

The only pro human genetics supporting male only marines arguments I've seen are 'because testosterone', which I've already provided counter arguments to.

Until you've got something more than Y chromosomes, SRY genes or testosterone as justifications, I've not seen any science argument that supports a default basis for female exclusion.

And as I've said, excluding women from the process for a fictional cultural reason is a separate thing that obviously can happen. And the discussion should be around that.

But too many times I've seen people who just don't want there to be female marines fall back on 'well the emperor's science said it wasn't possible' when there's no genetic support for that that I've actually seen put forward.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It should be changed because if not, it will continue to be used as a cudgel against FSM. Without removing that bullet from the chamber, there will still be folks claiming "but muh lore".

If that is it then.. Yeah I am going to continue disagreeing on that argument. Much in the same way someone in historical could criticize your army for not being a proper light mechanical force in a WW2 game or someone pointing out your 14th century army isn't done in the proper color the answer isn't to change the lore or background of it.

WW2 happened. The 14th century happened. The Battle of Macragge did not.

So it really does boil down to it must be done in the specific way you want or it can't exist. Gotcha. Still disagree with it.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

What coherency?GW has never kept things coherent

We've circled back around to 'it's bad so make it worse!' again. Yay.

That the setting is often damaged by contradictory or illogical background changes/additions is a BAD thing. The solution isn't to just do it more so long as it achieves something (however nebulous) out of universe.