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Aecus Decimus wrote:
Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
It's worth pointing out that even "primitive" societies understand the relationship between cause and effect. They know what brings the game into range and how to take it. They know the seasons of planting, how much to irrigate, and how to preserve food once the harvest comes in.

The conceit of our age is that in other areas, they're stone stupid, and will keep saying rituals that don't work out of habit, or they make up mystical reasons for why you should cut with the grain rather than across it.


Why is it unrealistic to think they're that stupid? In modern times we have cults that insist that prayer is the only acceptable treatment for injury or disease and if you die it's because you didn't pray hard enough. We have people that think cancer treatments are white patriarchical science (along with cancer itself) and you should use crystals to re-tune your energy auras. We have covid denialists eating horse de-wormer to "treat" a virus and then spending their last breaths as they die of covid insisting that it's a hoax. Or, if you want a civilization-wide example, just look at climate change: we know exactly what is happening, what is causing it, and how to fix the problem but the future must be sacrificed on the altar of shareholder value. Given things like that happening even in our more enlightened age is it really that hard to believe that a backwards theocracy running an elaborate cargo cult in the ruins of a greater civilization would keep repeating nonsense that doesn't work and insisting that it's a lack of faith in god the machine spirits that causes it to fail?


The Adeptus Mechanicus rituals are rituals that work. The ignorance aspect comes in because they don't know why it works or have an animistic/mystical explanation of why it works rather than what modern readers might think.

Activate the machine by lubricating it with "holy unguents" (i.e. machine oil or lubricants) and intone the invocation of awakening. The mystical explanation: the machine spirit cooperates because it likes being honored and bathed with the oil. Rational explanation: The machine's moving parts work smoothly when lubricated and the invocation of awakening is basically a pre-activation checklist.

   
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Hecaton wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Don't forget in the Imperium machines aren't just a religion - the entire concept of Science is a religion unto itself.


No, the AdMech is fairly explicitly anti-science.



Well the only way to be properly anti-science would be to never build machines or anything. So anti-science isn't quite the correct term. It's more that they practice science within a rigid religious framework which creates something that isn't what we'd consider true science.

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Iracundus wrote:
Aecus Decimus wrote:
Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
It's worth pointing out that even "primitive" societies understand the relationship between cause and effect. They know what brings the game into range and how to take it. They know the seasons of planting, how much to irrigate, and how to preserve food once the harvest comes in.

The conceit of our age is that in other areas, they're stone stupid, and will keep saying rituals that don't work out of habit, or they make up mystical reasons for why you should cut with the grain rather than across it.


Why is it unrealistic to think they're that stupid? In modern times we have cults that insist that prayer is the only acceptable treatment for injury or disease and if you die it's because you didn't pray hard enough. We have people that think cancer treatments are white patriarchical science (along with cancer itself) and you should use crystals to re-tune your energy auras. We have covid denialists eating horse de-wormer to "treat" a virus and then spending their last breaths as they die of covid insisting that it's a hoax. Or, if you want a civilization-wide example, just look at climate change: we know exactly what is happening, what is causing it, and how to fix the problem but the future must be sacrificed on the altar of shareholder value. Given things like that happening even in our more enlightened age is it really that hard to believe that a backwards theocracy running an elaborate cargo cult in the ruins of a greater civilization would keep repeating nonsense that doesn't work and insisting that it's a lack of faith in god the machine spirits that causes it to fail?


The Adeptus Mechanicus rituals are rituals that work. The ignorance aspect comes in because they don't know why it works or have an animistic/mystical explanation of why it works rather than what modern readers might think.

Activate the machine by lubricating it with "holy unguents" (i.e. machine oil or lubricants) and intone the invocation of awakening. The mystical explanation: the machine spirit cooperates because it likes being honored and bathed with the oil. Rational explanation: The machine's moving parts work smoothly when lubricated and the invocation of awakening is basically a pre-activation checklist.



It’s a bit of both.

Aspects of the rituals of course serve a purpose, such as oiling parts and pressing the on switch. But I’d argue a fair chunk serves no purpose whatsoever, and is done entirely ritualistically.

We also have other litanies. Imperial Guard for instance have litanies used in combat, ostensibly to increase accuracy. There I think we can argue that whilst the words used may have no specific impact at all, the chanting of the litany can help focus and calm the Guardsmen, which would help them with accuracy compared to a bundle of nerves panic firing. Likewise a litany chanted whilst sharpening a bayonet may be set to a cadence which ensures the appropriate time is taken.

Whilst not comparing anyone to toddlers? This is something you can use to help toddlers and youngsters certain tasks, such as how to properly clean your teeth. The words describe the action, the timing ensures, well, the timing is suitable. Another good example? I can’t recite the alphabet without it being the Sesame Street song, because it’s become rote.

So I firmly argue the Litanies and Chants may not have a mystical effect - but they are still effective in their task, because their purpose is to calm, or ensure a task is done thoroughly. Of course whether anyone in The Imperium actually realises that is a different question.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/03 09:59:49


   
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And then you muddy the waters because in 40K if trillions of warriors are reciting the same litanies and believing in them that belief has to go somewhere when it comes to the Warp.

Do those prayers generate power for some entity within the warp which then comes back in the form of the miracles such as those the Sisters of Battle make use of.


Or those times that your machine actually starts talking back because your company commander found a blasphemous book and the rites your company says got twisted just enough that now you are all worshipping a Chaos Demon without realising it (though you're starting to suspect something is amiss, but not enough to do anything about it)

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The more we discuss it, it seems the answer to both of OP’s questions is a firm “yes”. 😂😂

Though I for one remain unconvinced weapons and that can develop a soul from software. At least not the basic, non-Land Raider types.

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
Aecus Decimus wrote:
Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
It's worth pointing out that even "primitive" societies understand the relationship between cause and effect. They know what brings the game into range and how to take it. They know the seasons of planting, how much to irrigate, and how to preserve food once the harvest comes in.

The conceit of our age is that in other areas, they're stone stupid, and will keep saying rituals that don't work out of habit, or they make up mystical reasons for why you should cut with the grain rather than across it.


Why is it unrealistic to think they're that stupid? In modern times we have cults that insist that prayer is the only acceptable treatment for injury or disease and if you die it's because you didn't pray hard enough. We have people that think cancer treatments are white patriarchical science (along with cancer itself) and you should use crystals to re-tune your energy auras. We have covid denialists eating horse de-wormer to "treat" a virus and then spending their last breaths as they die of covid insisting that it's a hoax. Or, if you want a civilization-wide example, just look at climate change: we know exactly what is happening, what is causing it, and how to fix the problem but the future must be sacrificed on the altar of shareholder value. Given things like that happening even in our more enlightened age is it really that hard to believe that a backwards theocracy running an elaborate cargo cult in the ruins of a greater civilization would keep repeating nonsense that doesn't work and insisting that it's a lack of faith in god the machine spirits that causes it to fail?


The Adeptus Mechanicus rituals are rituals that work. The ignorance aspect comes in because they don't know why it works or have an animistic/mystical explanation of why it works rather than what modern readers might think.

Activate the machine by lubricating it with "holy unguents" (i.e. machine oil or lubricants) and intone the invocation of awakening. The mystical explanation: the machine spirit cooperates because it likes being honored and bathed with the oil. Rational explanation: The machine's moving parts work smoothly when lubricated and the invocation of awakening is basically a pre-activation checklist.



It’s a bit of both.

Aspects of the rituals of course serve a purpose, such as oiling parts and pressing the on switch. But I’d argue a fair chunk serves no purpose whatsoever, and is done entirely ritualistically.

We also have other litanies. Imperial Guard for instance have litanies used in combat, ostensibly to increase accuracy. There I think we can argue that whilst the words used may have no specific impact at all, the chanting of the litany can help focus and calm the Guardsmen, which would help them with accuracy compared to a bundle of nerves panic firing. Likewise a litany chanted whilst sharpening a bayonet may be set to a cadence which ensures the appropriate time is taken.

Whilst not comparing anyone to toddlers? This is something you can use to help toddlers and youngsters certain tasks, such as how to properly clean your teeth. The words describe the action, the timing ensures, well, the timing is suitable. Another good example? I can’t recite the alphabet without it being the Sesame Street song, because it’s become rote.

So I firmly argue the Litanies and Chants may not have a mystical effect - but they are still effective in their task, because their purpose is to calm, or ensure a task is done thoroughly. Of course whether anyone in The Imperium actually realises that is a different question.


Sure some chants may just be "filler" to get the user to pause or maintain timing. "Chant this first before hitting the button again" may just be giving the machine time to cool down first etc...

However I would argue the key thing about the Adeptus Mechanicus view of the world is that it is more like a pre-science magical/mystical view of the world in explaining why things work, not just that they are ignorant and don't know things. Ancient Egyptians had spiritual beliefs about honey and knew that honey was good for treating wounds, even though they did not understand why it did so in the way that we know today about honey's antibacterial properties. They may have linked its properties to those spiritual beliefs about it as a divine substance. Similarly the Adeptus Mechanicus may view electricity as an example or aspect of the Motive Force.

It's not that the Adeptus Mechanicus believes in things that aren't true and that are easily provable as not true (though a few examples of that exist in the background), but that their religious framework does explain how things work (within that framework) just like ancient Egyptian beliefs about certain substances actually are factually true, albeit through their own religious framework. The problem with the Adeptus Mechanicus view is that this religious framework constrains attempts to go beyond it or extend it. It is a backward looking view, as they believe everything worth knowing was already revealed in the STC and that it is just a matter of rediscovering it through finding a STC or piecing together fragments of STC designs.
   
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Again it’s all of those things.

I can definitely see multiple reasons as to why Chants are used.

From simple training of proper maintenance, to them being genuinely necessary because more complex machines have something like Siri or Cortana (real world Cortana) which needs verbal commands as well as switches and dials and that.

I think this becomes more apparent when we consider the technology being used isn’t all that standardised, being fragments of knowledge gained over millennia. So in a given ship, tank, Lab etc there’ll be all sorts of gubbins of varying sophistication.


   
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Iracundus wrote:


The Adeptus Mechanicus rituals are rituals that work. The ignorance aspect comes in because they don't know why it works or have an animistic/mystical explanation of why it works rather than what modern readers might think.

Activate the machine by lubricating it with "holy unguents" (i.e. machine oil or lubricants) and intone the invocation of awakening. The mystical explanation: the machine spirit cooperates because it likes being honored and bathed with the oil. Rational explanation: The machine's moving parts work smoothly when lubricated and the invocation of awakening is basically a pre-activation checklist.



Nah. If an AdMech ritual doesn't work, they'll just assume that the machine spirit is upset rather than troubleshooting it. Their rituals become hokum very fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:


Well the only way to be properly anti-science would be to never build machines or anything. So anti-science isn't quite the correct term. It's more that they practice science within a rigid religious framework which creates something that isn't what we'd consider true science.


Science is a method of inquiry, not technology. The AdMech thinks technology is sacred. They think science is heresy, because science involves freedom of thought and innovation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The more we discuss it, it seems the answer to both of OP’s questions is a firm “yes”. 😂😂


No. You're declaring victory when the things you support are being disproved.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/02/03 18:55:36


 
   
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I see you still don’t quite grasp the niceties of the art of conversation - and that in fact, most folk here are having to speak speculatively, due to the background being quite deliciously vague about exactly what a Machine Spirit is and isn’t.

   
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I agree with MDC, that the majority of the "spirits" if they do exist reside in the big stuff, the LRs and stuff that has a machine literally making the important decisions, like a Baneblade. That being said, the dogmatic and frankly ignorant practice of religious theism by the AdMech in terms of "every technology is sacred" leads to the worshiping of toasters and whatnot. Guns don't have spirits, but they have made that ignorant belief so common place as to have it be considered fact that they in fact do.

Machine Spirits are real in my thinking, for Titans and Titanic vehicles. Machine spirits however do not inhabit the coffee maker, or the commbead, or the seat warmer in the Rhino.
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I see you still don’t quite grasp the niceties of the art of conversation - and that in fact, most folk here are having to speak speculatively, due to the background being quite deliciously vague about exactly what a Machine Spirit is and isn’t.


Is it possible for you to have a conversation without being unjustifiably condescending?
   
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Hecaton wrote:
Nah. If an AdMech ritual doesn't work, they'll just assume that the machine spirit is upset rather than troubleshooting it. Their rituals become hokum very fast.


Right, so then all the gear malfunctions, rendering the rituals moot.

Again, we know there are entities in the Warp who can possess machines and alter reality. The only thing we can really debate at this point is the degree to which that happens regarding various machines.

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Thinking on it, certain Machine Spirits almost seem like a form of failsafe.

For instance, a Titan’s MIU.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Mind_Impulse_Unit

As noted, it takes a person of strong Will to master the Titan’s Machine Spirit. And the Knight Codex explains the Throne Mechanicum actively alters its occupants Mind.

At least. That’s true of Crusade and Imperial era Knights and Titans - by which time the Knights and Titans were already ancient devices. So perhaps it was something the original designs didn’t intend, easily fixed by replacing bits and bobs, or just whatever the equivalent of defragging/empty the trash can would be.

But at least in 40K, they ostensibly keep Knights loyal, by literally reprogramming the occupant (this can be forcibly corrupted, ala Chaos Knights), and ensures a Titan Crew actually gets fighty - both pretty desirable results, despite the strain it puts Princeps under.

Then you have the Armiger class Knights, where the Helm Mechanicus allows a “proper” knight to override underlings.

   
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Do GMNDKs have machine Spirits? Do Invictor Warsuits? As far as I know, that smallest possible device shown to have a temperment, ala a Machine Spirit is a Baneblade, and that's in Shadowsword, when the tank literally refuses to fire at a fellow Baneblade.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do GMNDKs have machine Spirits? Do Invictor Warsuits? As far as I know, that smallest possible device shown to have a temperment, ala a Machine Spirit is a Baneblade, and that's in Shadowsword, when the tank literally refuses to fire at a fellow Baneblade.


Rynn's Might, a Land Raider of the Crimson Fists, that went full Rambo on an Ork Waaagh by itself with no crew would like a word...

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Rynn%27s_Might

I mean, Land Raiders are known for a rule called Power of the Machine Spirit.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do GMNDKs have machine Spirits? Do Invictor Warsuits? As far as I know, that smallest possible device shown to have a temperment, ala a Machine Spirit is a Baneblade, and that's in Shadowsword, when the tank literally refuses to fire at a fellow Baneblade.


Rynn's Might, a Land Raider of the Crimson Fists, that went full Rambo on an Ork Waaagh by itself with no crew would like a word...

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Rynn%27s_Might

I mean, Land Raiders are known for a rule called Power of the Machine Spirit.


I literally said Land Raiders up above....
   
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 Grey Templar wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do GMNDKs have machine Spirits? Do Invictor Warsuits? As far as I know, that smallest possible device shown to have a temperment, ala a Machine Spirit is a Baneblade, and that's in Shadowsword, when the tank literally refuses to fire at a fellow Baneblade.


Rynn's Might, a Land Raider of the Crimson Fists, that went full Rambo on an Ork Waaagh by itself with no crew would like a word...

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Rynn%27s_Might

I mean, Land Raiders are known for a rule called Power of the Machine Spirit.


In various older incarnations of the rules, it allowed the tank to fire a single weapon or move even if otherwise unable to because the crew was shaken or stunned, among other things. It might well be that the 'machine spirit' in this case is some sort of limited autopilot/lane assist/self-defence override without a true AI. The original story about Rynn's Might specifically mentions the machine spirit waking and following the last mission parameters it was programmed with: Search and Destroy. So possibly the LR just drove around on autopilot and engaged anything that did not have a friendly IFF beacon.
   
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I may be thinking of the very same Land Raider, but there’s also one instance of one trapping enemies inside it’s hull, then self destructing.

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I may be thinking of the very same Land Raider, but there’s also one instance of one trapping enemies inside it’s hull, then self destructing.


Yep, that's the same one. It drove around and shot orks till its ammo ran out and the energy cells ran dry, then it trapped some lootas inside and killed them by overloading the reactor. But it did not totally self-destruct, it was recovered after the war was over.
   
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Important thing there is that whilst it, like Warlord Titans self activating, is the machine hasn’t acted against its purpose, so such instances perhaps aren’t confirmation of true Artificial Intelligence/Abominable Intellect, but more Ersatz Instinct.


   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


As noted, it takes a person of strong Will to master the Titan’s Machine Spirit. And the Knight Codex explains the Throne Mechanicum actively alters its occupants Mind.

At least. That’s true of Crusade and Imperial era Knights and Titans - by which time the Knights and Titans were already ancient devices. So perhaps it was something the original designs didn’t intend, easily fixed by replacing bits and bobs, or just whatever the equivalent of defragging/empty the trash can would be.



In my headcanon, the 'Ghosts in the machine' in stuff like Warlords is the likely result of never deleting your 'temporary files' or 'user configurations' because the Imperium no longer knows how to - it makes sense that a complex system like a Warlord would have some sort of adaptive system that conforms to the Princeps over time, stuff like command shortcuts, reflexive behaviour etc. that establishes itself over time. Originally, that would be reset after each princeps rotation, but the the Mechanicus forgot how to, and now a fresh princeps meets a control interface that has been moulded to his predecessors over countless individuals. Thus, the process is much more symbiotic: the Princeps is molded by the 'negative' impression of his predecessors as much as they leave their own imprint on the interface, to the point that you need a very strong personality to be able to wrangle that amalgam into something useful at all.
   
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It could also have been an intended feature.

Fresh new Titan, about to receive its first crew. Except the Titan is programmed with tactical routines and information on its own tolerances. A quick start guide type thing, with the Titan’s animalistic programming there to encourage suitably aggressive tactics are employed by its crew.

Or you start with a properly trained crew, and the Manifold serves as a way to store and benefit from their battle experience. Over successive crews, ever greater knowledge is preserved.

Lots of different things it could’ve started as, only to be overloaded and ever more temperamental as it serves across the millennia.

Of course we can never rule out they’re behaving exactly as originally intended in the modern era!

   
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Machine spirits are real in much the same way as any bogles are to the mind of the believer. Who are we to deny it?

In 40,000 years there's nothing to stop every piece of equipment having some technology to it. All of our tvs, media, phones, lights etc can be connected up to Alexa or Google if you're the kind of insane person who thinks that's a good idea. We don't really consider an Alexa to be an AI, it is just a "smart" device. So there's no reason for that not to be rolled out on anything and everything.

If you then went through total loss of understanding through your common or garden cataclysmic event etc and then found a Google assistant device, got it to switch on by a series of odd chances, you would also follow the same ritual. If you sneezed and by pure chance that sounded like "Hey Google" you'd figure the only way to switch it on would be through sneezing. Suddenly through appeasement of this strange device it allows you control of other things in your area.

Now consider hundreds of thousands of years have passed since the tech was created, your language has since changed considerably. Only certain archaic words that you found on ancient documents allow the activation of the machine.

Larger and rarer vehicles and weapons, of course they have something that assists their use. Add in the Warp and other fantasy elements, nothing to stop Machine Spirits having a mind of their own or evolving their original programming. What Tsagualsa mentioned above is a great way of thinking about it. This technology exists and can barely be replicated. Even when it is new, it's just a copy of something much older. The most ancient machines are most certainly corrupted files that give them something like personality. And maybe some truly do. The fun thing is that we never truly know for sure.

Original idea of the machine spirits was a joke about our own society, as is everything in 40k. So many people don't really know how things work or how to fix broken technology, it wouldn't take long at all for that information to be lost. Some people can barely turn on a computer. Only a select few of our society know the rituals of repair and function. They just need hoods and mechadendrites instead of polo shirts and chinos. It's funny to me to say it's an ignorant superstitious society as if we are any better ourselves.





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 Olthannon wrote:
Larger and rarer vehicles and weapons, of course they have something that assists their use. Add in the Warp and other fantasy elements, nothing to stop Machine Spirits having a mind of their own or evolving their original programming. What Tsagualsa mentioned above is a great way of thinking about it. This technology exists and can barely be replicated. Even when it is new, it's just a copy of something much older. The most ancient machines are most certainly corrupted files that give them something like personality. And maybe some truly do. The fun thing is that we never truly know for sure. [emphasis added]

Original idea of the machine spirits was a joke about our own society, as is everything in 40k. So many people don't really know how things work or how to fix broken technology, it wouldn't take long at all for that information to be lost. Some people can barely turn on a computer. Only a select few of our society know the rituals of repair and function. They just need hoods and mechadendrites instead of polo shirts and chinos. It's funny to me to say it's an ignorant superstitious society as if we are any better ourselves.


Humans themselves are "programmed" to try to find patterns and link things together. If we didn't, we'd still be living in trees or whatnot.

But the key part is that we cannot simply write down all of that stuff to superstition because it is an objective truth that spirits exist in the 40k world and can alter reality in concrete, verifiable ways.

We know there are evil spirits out there, but I'm kind of fascinated that so many people are reluctant to believe that their are good spirits as well, ones interested in helping rather than harming humanity.

I'm also firmly on the side of the "everything has a spirit" side of the debate. Anyone who has ever had a firearm malfunction while doing a timed qualification (let alone a car that won't start) knows not only the inevitability of curses/prayers but also their efficacy.

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Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

We know there are evil spirits out there, but I'm kind of fascinated that so many people are reluctant to believe that their are good spirits as well, ones interested in helping rather than harming humanity.

I'm also firmly on the side of the "everything has a spirit" side of the debate. Anyone who has ever had a firearm malfunction while doing a timed qualification (let alone a car that won't start) knows not only the inevitability of curses/prayers but also their efficacy.




Well there's the blessings that the Sisters of Battle get, which aren't psycher abilities. Meanwhile the only other source of "magical" abilities is the Warp where the overwhelming majority of major entities just want to corrupt/kill/subvert humanity.

Now we know there can be beneficial gods in there, Gork and Mork sort of mostly the Eldar Pantheon of gods. There's also rumour that the Emperor could be some kind of warp power now with all the Imperium worship that is going on and with the Sisters of Battle elements possibly being a manifestation of that belief power.


However most warp entities are closer to what we'd consider demons. They want to possess your body; they want to consume your soul; they want your belief to fuel their powers. They are at the very best purely selfish and in most cases malicious in nature toward humanity (and most living things in the material realm). This is overwhelmingly reinforced by the fact that the major warp powers that be - the 4 major gods and most of the major non-aligned demons that serve them - are all in a huge war with humanity. Now granted there's standing theory that the gods want to create a never-ending war to preserve the status to preserve the torment and emotional turmoil that they feast off, but its still a war so far as humanity is concerned.




So I'd say its not that there are no beneficial agents of a magical/psychic nature, just that they are both super rare and also very hard to judge. A demon might start out appearing really nice, generous and helpful.... then later on it reveals its true intentions once you're corrupted so far you can't escape.

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We can also look at Daemon Weapons and Engines. And indeed to a certain extent, Weirdboy Warpheadz when it comes to possession.

Yes a Daemon can possess inanimate or technological objects, but it’s not commonly willing. Soulgrinders are a seeming exception, but whether forced or pact based, the item or vehicle requires sigils and doodads and wot nots to keep the Daemon in it. And the Daemons don’t like their confinement, as they have little to no agency as a result. The same happens when a Daemon attempts to possess a Warphead. The Ork’s sense of self is too strong for a Daemon to suppress, so it ends up trapped, and thoroughly miserable.

I’m also not particularly convinced believing your weapon has a Literal Spirit creates one in the Warp. Yes there are lesser Warp Entities, independent of the Big Gods. But they’re still at risk of being consumed/subsumed into larger more powerful entities. And whilst I wouldn’t say we can entirely rule it out, I suspect it would be exceptionally rare.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/04 14:29:01


   
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 Overread wrote:
So I'd say its not that there are no beneficial agents of a magical/psychic nature, just that they are both super rare and also very hard to judge. A demon might start out appearing really nice, generous and helpful.... then later on it reveals its true intentions once you're corrupted so far you can't escape.


A guardian angel wouldn't present itself in the same way, though. A "helper spirit" would do just that - make the thing work, every time. We know purity seals work (that's why one pays the points) and so one could assume that the rituals are about warding and strengthening guardian spirits who want nothing more than to serve and protect.

Remember, there can be no Chaos without Order, and the spirits of Order can take many forms. Indeed, one would assume that they would necessarily choose the least intrusive forms possible precisely to keep things organized.

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Northumberland

Consider a creature of Order, it would want something mechanical to work correctly. It would be a interesting idea.

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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




So Expectro Terra Pirata? I SUMMON THE LAND RAIDER TO DRIVE OFF THE DEMENTORS! - Barry Knotter
   
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Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot




Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
We know there are evil spirits out there, but I'm kind of fascinated that so many people are reluctant to believe that their are good spirits as well, ones interested in helping rather than harming humanity.


It's simple: 40k is a dystopia and you don't get good things in a dystopia. At best you might get a pro-humanity demonic entity which, while not even remotely good from a moral point of view, champions humanity's crusade to annihilate all non-human civilizations and dominate the universe.

TBH an order demon would be one of the most terrifying concepts in 40k. At least the four Chaos gods stand for something and need the universe to continue existing, a Chaos demon of order would be pure self-destructive nihilism. The ultimate order is a perfect crystal at absolute zero, which means destroying the entire universe as we know it in order to re-form it in this minimum entropy state. Even Khorne's slaughter has more limits, as Khorne needs something to survive so that war may continue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tsagualsa wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I may be thinking of the very same Land Raider, but there’s also one instance of one trapping enemies inside it’s hull, then self destructing.


Yep, that's the same one. It drove around and shot orks till its ammo ran out and the energy cells ran dry, then it trapped some lootas inside and killed them by overloading the reactor. But it did not totally self-destruct, it was recovered after the war was over.


No reason that can't be basic scripted AI. Venting the reactor into the interior could be nothing more than a simple anti-theft mechanism triggered by the presence of unauthorized non-marines inside its hull.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
We know purity seals work (that's why one pays the points)


This is an important reminder that game mechanics =/= fluff. Purity seals have an effect in the game mechanics as a purchased upgrade, that doesn't mean they have any purpose in the lore.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/02/04 23:10:49


 
   
 
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