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Was thinking about this, more in regards to what might happen with Seraphon soon, as there's speculation they may get a launch box featuring the stuff we saw in their reveal.

But this sort of thing has been happening plenty across different factions, with the Codex coming out sometimes 2 months before the full model release. Astra Militarum, Leagues of Votann, Black Templar, all got launch boxes just in recent memory that had a collector's edition codex.

I think overall it's a good thing, perhaps not for the individual but for the community as a whole. Think about it.

Whether you get the launch box or not, either because it's not something you're interested in or because it sells out, you know what's going to be coming out in short order, and the community will usually get about 1-2 months between launch box and full release to consider the rules in the book.

Worst case scenario: the contents of the actual launch box are subpar, but hey, rules change all the time. A friend of mine bought two of the Votann launch boxes only to realize he actually had too many of some of the units due to the points changes that came afterwards.

Best case scenario: You exercise some patience and when it's finally time to make your purchase into the army, whether it's expanding an army or starting a new one, you already have an idea of how those units are going to perform based on community analysis of the codexes that are already out in the wild.

But what do you guys think?

I have no interest in codexes myself. So it lowers my interest in the launch box.

I think codexes in launch boxes are fine, as long as the standalone codex is released at the same time, or a negligible amount of time afterwards. Like a week or so.

None of this "the three guys that were able to get it from ebay scalpers get the rules, see the rest of you in 3 months" garbage.

I think it adds value for those interested in the new book: you get it early, and in a different cover. It is part of the box though, so any discount is taking the book price into account.

So I was quite relieved when I saw the World Eaters getting none of this type. I am not at all interested in their new "codex", and happily take a box that is models only.

I don't care one way or the other really.

I've been playing these games for a long time & have an extensive inventory of any faction im interested in. And I'm not in the habit of replacing existing models/units with new sculpts just because "new". I also place no value on the special edition covers of these books.
So, unless the box contains truly new units (ex: Votann), & enough of them, I'm not likely going to buy the box.

So as far as getting the book? It'll play out one of three ways:
1) if its a faction im not interested in I'll skip the book completely.
2) If it's a faction I have but I'm not currently playing or planning to in the immediate future (ex: Guard)? Then I'll just wait patiently for the regular release. Or when it's needed.
3) if it's for a faction im currently playing or plan to? (Ex: Slaves to Darkness) Then I'll hit Ebay etc. I've yet to pay more for a book this way than I would at the shop. In fact I've often saved even more....
In the end I'll get the books im interested in, when I want them.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I think codexes in launch boxes are fine, as long as the standalone codex is released at the same time, or a negligible amount of time afterwards. Like a week or so.

None of this "the three guys that were able to get it from ebay scalpers get the rules, see the rest of you in 3 months" garbage.

I'm with Afrodactyl on this one - same time, or a week or two later, and that's fine. Longer than that, and its a problem.

Oh, and the app needs to be ready for people to use the code from a "launch box" codex, rather than it not working until general release - I don't use the app myself, but I've heard that's an issue.

I'm curious as to where Beast_of_Guanyin is legitimately getting their rules from, though, if getting the codex early reduces their interest in a launch box.

 Dysartes wrote:

I'm curious as to where Beast_of_Guanyin is legitimately getting their rules from, though, if getting the codex early reduces their interest in a launch box.

I was going to ask this but I think we know the answer upfront: they don't get them legitimately. Even then it's a weird statement, sell the codex off to recoup some of the cost, to say it lowers the value of the box is an odd statement given it's something you should need, or at least someone will.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I think codexes in launch boxes are fine, as long as the standalone codex is released at the same time, or a negligible amount of time afterwards. Like a week or so.

None of this "the three guys that were able to get it from ebay scalpers get the rules, see the rest of you in 3 months" garbage.

I'm with Afrodactyl on this one - same time, or a week or two later, and that's fine. Longer than that, and its a problem.

Oh, and the app needs to be ready for people to use the code from a "launch box" codex, rather than it not working until general release - I don't use the app myself, but I've heard that's an issue.

I'm curious as to where Beast_of_Guanyin is legitimately getting their rules from, though, if getting the codex early reduces their interest in a launch box.

So people couldn't use app when they can't get book and isn't even allowed in tournaments? Not optimal either.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I think codexes in launch boxes are fine, as long as the standalone codex is released at the same time, or a negligible amount of time afterwards. Like a week or so.

None of this "the three guys that were able to get it from ebay scalpers get the rules, see the rest of you in 3 months" garbage.

Some of this, and Some of "as long as there are two types of launch boxes, Collectors, and "normal" too.

I bought the special Sisters one when it came out - box and codex but that was a special case for me. Ltd Ed codexes and such have no interest to me esepcially since they are useful for so little time and so much art /lore is recycled again and again and again

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I think codexes in launch boxes are fine, as long as the standalone codex is released at the same time, or a negligible amount of time afterwards. Like a week or so.

None of this "the three guys that were able to get it from ebay scalpers get the rules, see the rest of you in 3 months" garbage.

This. The way they short sell production and everything sells out immediately is garbage when the "real" release is months later. The box should be like how videogames have a collector's edition that gives you early access ahead of the actual release.

I think they're great. It's like getting people with FOMO to spend their money to see if the codex will be worth getting at all. In the old days you'd have to risk your own money then find out yourself the codex was rubbish at the same time as everyone else. Now we can get a load of people with poor impulse control to find out for us.

Launch boxes themselves are a problem, as they rely on you making a wrong guess about what the single components will cost later on so they want you to fall to FOMO.
If they were available for the duration of an edition it would be fine, but instead you get a shady and unspecified "get it while you can". I missed out on the Beast Snagga Box several times because of little stock.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Launch boxes themselves are a problem, as they rely on you making a wrong guess about what the single components will cost later on so they want you to fall to FOMO.
If they were available for the duration of an edition it would be fine, but instead you get a shady and unspecified "get it while you can". I missed out on the Beast Snagga Box several times because of little stock.

Well it's pretty easy to figure out worst case which is always better than getting them individually. So the deal always can only go better.

It's always drop cheapest(and if you cant' figure what is cheapest go check GW stores for examples. It's pretty damn easy) and you are still better off getting box if you don't mind getting codex.

If I get a codex in my lunch box I usually try to trade it for a chocolate digestive, a frube, something like that.

Don't like it.

tneva82 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I think codexes in launch boxes are fine, as long as the standalone codex is released at the same time, or a negligible amount of time afterwards. Like a week or so.

None of this "the three guys that were able to get it from ebay scalpers get the rules, see the rest of you in 3 months" garbage.

I'm with Afrodactyl on this one - same time, or a week or two later, and that's fine. Longer than that, and its a problem.

Oh, and the app needs to be ready for people to use the code from a "launch box" codex, rather than it not working until general release - I don't use the app myself, but I've heard that's an issue.

I'm curious as to where Beast_of_Guanyin is legitimately getting their rules from, though, if getting the codex early reduces their interest in a launch box.

So people couldn't use app when they can't get book and isn't even allowed in tournaments? Not optimal either.

Sorry, tneva, I'm not following you here.

 Dysartes wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I think codexes in launch boxes are fine, as long as the standalone codex is released at the same time, or a negligible amount of time afterwards. Like a week or so.

None of this "the three guys that were able to get it from ebay scalpers get the rules, see the rest of you in 3 months" garbage.

I'm with Afrodactyl on this one - same time, or a week or two later, and that's fine. Longer than that, and its a problem.

Oh, and the app needs to be ready for people to use the code from a "launch box" codex, rather than it not working until general release - I don't use the app myself, but I've heard that's an issue.

I'm curious as to where Beast_of_Guanyin is legitimately getting their rules from, though, if getting the codex early reduces their interest in a launch box.

So people couldn't use app when they can't get book and isn't even allowed in tournaments? Not optimal either.

Sorry, tneva, I'm not following you here.

They're questioning if they're in the app will the old/current book vanish and which one do people use for tournaments.

To those who don't like them in the boxes, what would you prefer? Because putting the models out in a launch box with no rules for them is probably worse. Good luck with random build because you don't know what stuff does!

Beyond that the army rules are in theory something you need at some point, surely getting them in the launch box isn't a negative?

The Indominus starter had a booklet with rules for the new units it included. Not that there was a huge lag before the codex came out, but it’s a legit option.

Of course, with the full codex the unit entries had options from the full kit, not just the easy build ones.

Idealy we get off the dead tree treadmill. I’d personally dabble more in odd armies if I didn’t need to shell out for the rules. YMMV. Digital pdf for free/app, with collecters editions still printed for those who like that sort of thing. Like early AoS.

Dudeface wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I think codexes in launch boxes are fine, as long as the standalone codex is released at the same time, or a negligible amount of time afterwards. Like a week or so.

None of this "the three guys that were able to get it from ebay scalpers get the rules, see the rest of you in 3 months" garbage.

I'm with Afrodactyl on this one - same time, or a week or two later, and that's fine. Longer than that, and its a problem.

Oh, and the app needs to be ready for people to use the code from a "launch box" codex, rather than it not working until general release - I don't use the app myself, but I've heard that's an issue.

I'm curious as to where Beast_of_Guanyin is legitimately getting their rules from, though, if getting the codex early reduces their interest in a launch box.

So people couldn't use app when they can't get book and isn't even allowed in tournaments? Not optimal either.

Sorry, tneva, I'm not following you here.

They're questioning if they're in the app will the old/current book vanish and which one do people use for tournaments.

To those who don't like them in the boxes, what would you prefer? Because putting the models out in a launch box with no rules for them is probably worse. Good luck with random build because you don't know what stuff does!

Beyond that the army rules are in theory something you need at some point, surely getting them in the launch box isn't a negative?

If I were running things, then there would be two Codex: Orks (say) visible in the app once the launch box drops, with the year of release in the title for each (does the app show the cover image?) to differentiate the two. Once general release occurs, then the old version would drop off the app, and you could ditch the year from the title of the new version.

Whether the app can support that, of course, is another matter altogether.

As for tournaments? That's down to the TO, providing they communicate their decision clearly. I'd lean towards using the "old" book at such events until general release, personally.

Launch boxes = discounted price

So in that sense, as long as I'm into a box and it offers me a book I'm interested in as well, yes please!

(I'll still try to get my boxes from a discounter tho, in order to maximize my savings)

Just make codexes free in the app and update them as soon as ANY physical version is printed.

BUT since it's GW, just do the second part of my suggestion i guess

I think it's fine while stuff comes out individually within a month ish.

It's fine. Adds value.

It would be nice if the regular codex was released alongside it, but whatever, doesn't bother me.

The only people who care and bitch about it are the tourney-gakkers. Blah whine blah, unfair advantage, whine whine blah. Ultra-competitive try-hards are the fething worst.

In a world where wahapedia exists, no problem. The rules will be available to everyone shortly after the box release so there's no issue with limited supply or hidden information. It's a bit annoying to have to play digital-only if you prefer paper books and it's bad business practice for GW to encourage piracy like this but shrug, there are much worse problems with GW.

If the rules weren't available for free online it would be a huge problem to have two different versions of the codex. People who buy the box set want to use their shiny new toy ASAP, people who don't feel it's unfair that the more powerful version of their army is paywalled behind a limited edition box set that may not even be produced in sufficient numbers to meet demand. No matter what policy you have on allowing early release codices you're always going to have some people unhappy about it. But thankfully this isn't the situation we're dealing with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:
The only people who care and bitch about it are the tourney-gakkers. Blah whine blah, unfair advantage, whine whine blah. Ultra-competitive try-hards are the fething worst.

How is it not an unfair advantage? Buy the expensive new box set which may or may not contain models you actually want or you have to play with the older and weaker version of the codex. If the new codex is allowed before the normal release it's literal pay to win (unless you also allow pirated copies for people who don't want to buy the limited edition box).

Cadian Glory wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:
The only people who care and bitch about it are the tourney-gakkers. Blah whine blah, unfair advantage, whine whine blah. Ultra-competitive try-hards are the fething worst.

How is it not an unfair advantage? Buy the expensive new box set which may or may not contain models you actually want or you have to play with the older and weaker version of the codex. If the new codex is allowed before the normal release it's literal pay to win (unless you also allow pirated copies for people who don't want to buy the limited edition box).

Because more often than not, the units that come in limited box with models didn't exist before? Let's see, Lumineth and Votann were completely new armies, IG had mostly new units in theirs too, BT had primaris units that were all brand new besides the Redemptor - literally the only case where limited availability of the new book was any issue recently was WAAAC tryhards scrambling to get pre-nerf Votann plus illegal proxies of land fortresses (that weren't even right size to model for advantage, too) to club some seals harder. In all other cases, you want to play new units, said units and book are bundled together until general release so there is no issue, you want to play only old units, play using your old book until new one is publicly available, there, done.

And I like your assumption new codex is always better, the 8th edition Deathwatch one was far superior (in fun and flexibility, if not in power) to 9th edition garbage trash that nearly killed the faction. And it's far from the only example

 Irbis wrote:
Because more often than not, the units that come in limited box with models didn't exist before?

But the codex contains rules for the entire army, not just for the units in the box. Cadia Stands had the new FOBs but it also had extremely powerful new rules for LRBTs. If you buy Cadia Stands your LRBT's battle cannon is flat D3, if you don't you only get DD3. And that's on top of early access to new units being problematic. Even setting aside the question of proxying if you buy Cadia Stands you get to use FOBs, if you decide you don't want the entire bundle box and would rather buy the units individually you don't.

IG had mostly new units in theirs too

Command squad: old.
Infantry squad: old (no, slightly changing the weapon choices does not make it a new unit when everyone has plenty of models available to do it).
Sentinel: old.
FOBs: new.

New sculpts, yes. Mostly new units, no.

And I like your assumption new codex is always better, the 8th edition Deathwatch one was far superior (in fun and flexibility, if not in power) to 9th edition garbage trash that nearly killed the faction. And it's far from the only example

GW occasionally failing at power creep in some cases doesn't make the situation any less problematic the rest of the time.

Cadian Glory wrote:
In a world where wahapedia exists, no problem. The rules will be available to everyone shortly after the box release so there's no issue with limited supply or hidden information. It's a bit annoying to have to play digital-only if you prefer paper books and it's bad business practice for GW to encourage piracy like this but shrug, there are much worse problems with GW.

If the rules weren't available for free online it would be a huge problem to have two different versions of the codex. People who buy the box set want to use their shiny new toy ASAP, people who don't feel it's unfair that the more powerful version of their army is paywalled behind a limited edition box set that may not even be produced in sufficient numbers to meet demand. No matter what policy you have on allowing early release codices you're always going to have some people unhappy about it. But thankfully this isn't the situation we're dealing with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:
The only people who care and bitch about it are the tourney-gakkers. Blah whine blah, unfair advantage, whine whine blah. Ultra-competitive try-hards are the fething worst.

How is it not an unfair advantage? Buy the expensive new box set which may or may not contain models you actually want or you have to play with the older and weaker version of the codex. If the new codex is allowed before the normal release it's literal pay to win (unless you also allow pirated copies for people who don't want to buy the limited edition box).

I don't think they encourage piracy at all, they openly state a limited box codex isn't tournament legal until general release, there's no rush or need to get it.

I stand by my assumptions the vast majority of people that pirate rules do it simply to not pay. There is no greater justification on their minds than they don't think they should have to.

The situation where there are 2 sets of rules you say doesn't exist in fact does, as the guard book at LVO showed. People do get very heated about it.

Dudeface wrote:
I don't think they encourage piracy at all, they openly state a limited box codex isn't tournament legal until general release, there's no rush or need to get it.

People inevitably want the shiny new thing even if it isn't in tournaments yet. They want to play it at their local store, they want to read the rules to see what all the hype is about. By releasing the codex in a limited-access format that requires buying a whole bundle box GW is encouraging people to pirate the book even if they plan to buy it when it is released normally. They're normalizing the idea of piracy and losing customers to "well I already pirated it and got used to digital rules, why buy the book now?" instead of making it as easy as possible to buy the book you want.

I stand by my assumptions the vast majority of people that pirate rules do it simply to not pay. There is no greater justification on their minds than they don't think they should have to.

Hard disagree. GW is well into "piracy is a service problem" territory. Yes, obviously some people will pirate stuff no matter what but a lot of people use pirated rules because the pirate is providing them in a superior format. Wahapedia is better organized, has all of the updates included for you, and has convenient links to reference anything you have questions about. Paper books are inaccurate almost as soon as you buy them and require having a bunch of separate FAQ/errata documents, and GW's own app is notoriously buggy and inaccurate. It's at the point where even a lot of players who buy legal copies of the books will use Wahapedia as their primary rule source and only pull out the paper book if a TO asks to see proof of ownership.

And that's on top of the farce of GW having to allow pirated rules at their own event because they didn't print enough copies of the mandatory tournament rules for all of their players to get one. Even if you wanted to buy a copy of that book you didn't get one unless you camped at the store on release day to order one within the first few minutes of them going on sale.

The situation where there are 2 sets of rules you say doesn't exist in fact does, as the guard book at LVO showed. People do get very heated about it.

LVO is exactly my point about nobody being happy! Only one set of rules was legal at LVO but it was a no-win scenario for them. LVO banned the early-release rules and made a lot of guard players unhappy, but the alternative would have made a lot of other people unhappy that a limited-release codex is allowed.