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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/03 20:25:48
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Hellacious Havoc
Bay Area
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Here are a few of what I would like to see in 10ed. For CSM. I hope people can suggest others as well on this thread. Perhaps even improve upon what people suggest here. Hopefully, GW employee reads these and perhaps can make some rules a reality.
1. Summoning Daemons. Nonaligned Legions such as BL, WB, IW, NL, AL should be able to “summon” have in their army any of the 4 Gods daemons as follows. Sorcerer’s Master of Possession Daemon Prince if undivided should be able to “summon” any of the 4 types. If any of those HQ have a specific mark, then they are limited to that type. This provides a boost to have undivided equal access to the 4 gods. But limited to what mark they have if not undivided. Remember, they talk about how if an undivided legion was more towards one god than another, the other gods would get angry. Thus undivided.
2. Master of Possession sacrifice should count for cultists and accursed cultists. Reason: Makes more sense that cultists would be sacrificed over space marines. Rule 1. Damage from the sacrifice cannot be healed, ignored or returned from death. Rule 2. Curtis sacrificed provide +1 to rolls, while space marines provide 2+ to rolls as their sacrifice is more.
3. Dark Apostle should be able to pick 2 prayers but cast 1. Epistle of Lorgar should be cast one extra prayer and perhaps combined with Dark Council which only works if disciples are dead.
Dark Apostle should have a terminator version.
4. Heretical Daemon Prince. Should be able to get undivided mark and only smite. Thus no special god power but granted daemonhood by all 4 gods. Once again undivided to to the gods. Perhaps add something like morale boost again to undivided.
5. Chaos Lord needs help some how. Who plays it?
6. Helbrute. If the story is fusion of daemon and machine and a space marine. Should it not have either daemonkin or daemon engine?
7. Chaos spawn bikes need a new model. Chaos spawn drop a few points.
8. Dark commune should be attached to cultists options and not an hq.
9. Possessed should have more custom design so a box of 2 would have 10 different figures.
10. Chaos Terminators possessed option. Add a section for them as they are cannon and see sales for possessed chaos terminators boxes flow.
11. Sorcerer psychic powers should be reviewed to be more on par with Master of Possession hq choice.
12. Warpsmith needs upgrade to be considered as an hq.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/05 19:38:57
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Fixture of Dakka
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I haven't been playing my chaos marines, nor have I picked up the latest codex, so I'm out of the loop. Take my thoughts with a grain of salt.
1. Only unalligned legions? I don't see anything wrong with letting, for instance, Emperor's Children summon daemons if everyone else is doing it; they'd just be limited to Slaaneshi daemons.
4. Personally, I want to see more specific unalligned themes explored a bit more. Rather than just being generically spikey, Unalligned could lean into fun powers/concepts not dominated by other gods like heretech, fear, etc. So maybe just make princes into more of a toolbox unit and let people take what cool abilities they want to represent their prince's gimmick.
5. I feel like a lot of generic HQs in the game should lose their auras and instead gain the ability to issue specific commands (or lower the CP cost of certain strats once per turn) or else have a list of specific rules to pick from. Think Pivotal Roles for harlequins. Let players decide whether their chaos lord is in charge because of his martial prowess, some supernatural superpower he has, or because of his tactical acumen.
6. Yeah, probably. It still seems weird to me that *all* chaos dreads are hellbrutes, apparently. Seems like some warbands would have the tech support to utilize the experience of injured marines the same way loyalists do.
12. See #5. Let players buy an upgrade to turn the smiths into daemon engine supporters, whacky daemonitech beatsticks, or position fortifiers.
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ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/05 22:05:02
Subject: Re:Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
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A few thoughts
1: Summoning is a bad mechanic. Either it gets you free units which is overpowered or you have to pay points for unreliable reinforcements so paying for them up front is just better. If we really want to push it though, I would make it where mono god armies can only summon their demon’s while unaligned has to be balanced between the 4 gods.
2: I think sacrificing cultists should be allowed but instead your get D6 mortal wounds for using a cultist. Lesser offering require more sacrifices.
3: Know 2 and pray 1 would be nice, but I wouldn’t lock the know 2 pray 2 to a single legion. That should be a points upgrade similar to the loyalist book. Plenty of warbands use dark apostles.
4: I would go with unaligned rather than undivided. It is extremely rare for the chaos gods to share their playthings. After Belakor they all started focusing on their own rather than pouring blessing into one being barring a few instances like Abbadon. The really worry is how do you make up for the demon prince being 15-20 points cheaper because of the mark?
6: unless we make an unneeded separate entry for chaos dreadnoughts, I wouldn’t make Hellbrutes demonkin or demon engines. There’s still plenty of just insane walking coffins as opposed to warp mutated monstrosities. Plus the keyword abuse would be ripe as of now.
7: Spawn are already a great option, any cheaper and they become an automatic selection. With their current rules I couldn’t see a point drop
10: Do CSM really need another heavy hitting melee option? I feel like that toolbox is pretty full at this point. Between terminators, possessed, chosen, and warptalons, it feels like that avenue is well covered.
Most of my wants boil down to game changes rather than faction rules.
Return to the old rules where equipment was not tied to the sprue. Let characters and elites take whatever options they want.
Overhaul strength versus toughness so that small arms can’t hurt tanks and heavy walkers. As it is it’s too easy to destroy these things with the current wound chart.
Open up squadrons for vehicles. The guard should always be able to take more but it’s disappointing to be limited to only a handful of tanks or demon engines
Remove specific legion traits and replace with custom choices so that rules aren’t aligned with paint schemes.
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Iron within, Iron without |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/06 03:55:55
Subject: Re:Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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evil_kiwi_60 wrote:A few thoughts
3: Know 2 and pray 1 would be nice, but I wouldn’t lock the know 2 pray 2 to a single legion. That should be a points upgrade similar to the loyalist book. Plenty of warbands use dark apostles.
Ultimately the Lord should be the basis of the main CSM HQ, and then you upgrade them to either specialize a certain way (which unlocks a few different wargear options) or to just gain even more raw stats.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/06 05:30:44
Subject: Re:Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
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EviscerationPlague wrote: evil_kiwi_60 wrote:A few thoughts
3: Know 2 and pray 1 would be nice, but I wouldn’t lock the know 2 pray 2 to a single legion. That should be a points upgrade similar to the loyalist book. Plenty of warbands use dark apostles.
Ultimately the Lord should be the basis of the main CSM HQ, and then you upgrade them to either specialize a certain way (which unlocks a few different wargear options) or to just gain even more raw stats.
Honestly this should be for several armies HQ's. Archons, autarchs, space marine captains, tyranid primes, and several others should all be able to be upgraded and specialized to the players desire. Instead we're prisoners of increasingly monopose characters.
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Iron within, Iron without |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/06 15:32:22
Subject: Re:Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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evil_kiwi_60 wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote: evil_kiwi_60 wrote:A few thoughts
3: Know 2 and pray 1 would be nice, but I wouldn’t lock the know 2 pray 2 to a single legion. That should be a points upgrade similar to the loyalist book. Plenty of warbands use dark apostles.
Ultimately the Lord should be the basis of the main CSM HQ, and then you upgrade them to either specialize a certain way (which unlocks a few different wargear options) or to just gain even more raw stats.
Honestly this should be for several armies HQ's. Archons, autarchs, space marine captains, tyranid primes, and several others should all be able to be upgraded and specialized to the players desire. Instead we're prisoners of increasingly monopose characters.
It depends. I think for Loyalist Scum, for example, keeping those roles mostly separated is for the better and there should be MUCH rarer instances of that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/07 13:59:47
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
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It really depends because we’ve seen chapters lead by a librarian like the Soul Drinkers and Blood Ravens. Plus coming from the chaos side of the past decades, it sucks to find yourself limited for options others get.
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Iron within, Iron without |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/07 15:17:51
Subject: Re:Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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Bring back Veteran Skills. And give Raptors Hit and Run again. That is all.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/07 15:36:26
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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HQ choices, especially the generic ones in general require ACTUAL OPTIONS TO FIT INTO ARMY BUILDS.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/07 15:40:23
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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Bring back Jump Packs for HQs. Chaos Lords and Sorcerers are too constrained without them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/07 16:07:18
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
Dallas, Tx
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Jump packs and point upgrades tied to skills for Lords/Sorcerers would be nice. I'd love to see Veteran skills/hit and run again but it'd probably be a cold day before that happened.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/07 16:09:12
ToW armies I own:
Empire: 10,000+
Chaos Legions: DoC- 10,000+; WoC- 7,500+; Beastmen- 2,500+; Chaos Dwarves- 3,500+
Unaligned: Ogres- 2,500; Tomb Kings- 3,000
Hotek: Dark Elves- 7,500+; High Elves- 2,500
40k armies I own:
CSM- 25,000+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/07 18:51:48
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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evil_kiwi_60 wrote:It really depends because we’ve seen chapters lead by a librarian like the Soul Drinkers and Blood Ravens. Plus coming from the chaos side of the past decades, it sucks to find yourself limited for options others get.
It's rare enough that I think maybe a Warlord Trait or Relic would be fine, but as a straight upgrade you'd have no reason not to take it on your Captain mostly. I think intermingling between Chaps/Libs/Apoths/Techs can be done mostly without unintended consequences, as they're mostly support characters secondary to the Captain/Chapter Master. Not saying it CAN'T be done but it requires a lot of thought to not make it autotake
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/07 19:25:50
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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EviscerationPlague wrote: evil_kiwi_60 wrote:It really depends because we’ve seen chapters lead by a librarian like the Soul Drinkers and Blood Ravens. Plus coming from the chaos side of the past decades, it sucks to find yourself limited for options others get.
It's rare enough that I think maybe a Warlord Trait or Relic would be fine, but as a straight upgrade you'd have no reason not to take it on your Captain mostly. I think intermingling between Chaps/Libs/Apoths/Techs can be done mostly without unintended consequences, as they're mostly support characters secondary to the Captain/Chapter Master. Not saying it CAN'T be done but it requires a lot of thought to not make it autotake
I'd rather err on the side of MORE customization than less.
GW feels otherwise, sadly.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/07 21:19:52
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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JNAProductions wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote: evil_kiwi_60 wrote:It really depends because we’ve seen chapters lead by a librarian like the Soul Drinkers and Blood Ravens. Plus coming from the chaos side of the past decades, it sucks to find yourself limited for options others get.
It's rare enough that I think maybe a Warlord Trait or Relic would be fine, but as a straight upgrade you'd have no reason not to take it on your Captain mostly. I think intermingling between Chaps/Libs/Apoths/Techs can be done mostly without unintended consequences, as they're mostly support characters secondary to the Captain/Chapter Master. Not saying it CAN'T be done but it requires a lot of thought to not make it autotake
I'd rather err on the side of MORE customization than less.
GW feels otherwise, sadly.
It's why I'm fine with it as a Relic or Warlord Trait in particular so that there's more opportunity cost.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/11 01:54:57
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Confessor Of Sins
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IwinUlose wrote:1. Summoning Daemons. Nonaligned Legions such as BL, WB, IW, NL, AL should be able to “summon” have in their army any of the 4 Gods daemons as follows. Sorcerer’s Master of Possession Daemon Prince if undivided should be able to “summon” any of the 4 types. If any of those HQ have a specific mark, then they are limited to that type. This provides a boost to have undivided equal access to the 4 gods. But limited to what mark they have if not undivided. Remember, they talk about how if an undivided legion was more towards one god than another, the other gods would get angry. Thus undivided.
I'm confused how this isn't the case now. The combination of the rules for Let the Galaxy Burn (CCSM) and Daemonic Allies (CCD) make it completely legal to have up to 25% of your CCSM Legion army composed of Daemons of all marks (Be'lakor excluded).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/12 07:11:46
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Remove Chapter Tactics, Malicious Volleys and Let the Galaxy Burn. Replace WL traits with generic options. Make relics less generic, no +1 swords without cool and thematic rules. No more rules within rules, Daemon Engines get a 5++ ability that is simply called "5+ Invulnerable Save" instead of having it hidden away. I nearly thought Rubrics lost their Invulnerable save the other day because it was turned into their Detachment bonus, get that garbage out of my face. Warp Strike -> Deep Strike. I have only played a couple of games against the new marks of Chaos, part of me wants to remove them for simplicity's sake but a far bigger part of me wants to keep them because CSM have always had Marks. The points cost should on the unit rather than being the same for everyone. Add pts for upgrades in general. Reduce the price of Rhinos. Remove FNP and -1 AP from Accursed Cultists. Remove Mutated Beyond Reason from Chaos Spawn, make one roll for the number of attacks for the whole unit instead. We get it, their damage output is random, no reason to double-dip. Excruciator cannons + Havoc autocannons -> Range 48" Heavy 2 S7 AP-1 D2. Tainted chainaxes just become another word for Astartes chainsword. DP -1 Atk, malefic talons 1 Atk -> 2 Atks. Remove an attack from Legionairres, Possessed and probably a good number of other units. No more special stats for lascannons on Land Raiders. Flamers get to Overwatch without the Stratagem and ignore cover. Aircraft get -12" range against shooting from units without FLY in addition to -1 to hit. Add back any mount options previously in the game. Add FW units to the codex.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2023/03/12 07:14:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/12 21:48:00
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
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vict0988 wrote:Remove Chapter Tactics, Malicious Volleys and Let the Galaxy Burn.
Replace WL traits with generic options. Make relics less generic, no +1 swords without cool and thematic rules.
No more rules within rules, Daemon Engines get a 5++ ability that is simply called "5+ Invulnerable Save" instead of having it hidden away. I nearly thought Rubrics lost their Invulnerable save the other day because it was turned into their Detachment bonus, get that garbage out of my face.
Warp Strike -> Deep Strike.
I have only played a couple of games against the new marks of Chaos, part of me wants to remove them for simplicity's sake but a far bigger part of me wants to keep them because CSM have always had Marks. The points cost should on the unit rather than being the same for everyone.
Add pts for upgrades in general.
Reduce the price of Rhinos.
Remove FNP and -1 AP from Accursed Cultists.
Remove Mutated Beyond Reason from Chaos Spawn, make one roll for the number of attacks for the whole unit instead. We get it, their damage output is random, no reason to double-dip.
Excruciator cannons + Havoc autocannons -> Range 48" Heavy 2 S7 AP-1 D2. Tainted chainaxes just become another word for Astartes chainsword.
DP -1 Atk, malefic talons 1 Atk -> 2 Atks.
Remove an attack from Legionairres, Possessed and probably a good number of other units.
No more special stats for lascannons on Land Raiders.
Flamers get to Overwatch without the Stratagem and ignore cover.
Aircraft get -12" range against shooting from units without FLY in addition to -1 to hit.
Add back any mount options previously in the game. Add FW units to the codex.
Is there any reason you want to nerf CSM into the ground? With everything you want to strip away the codex sits in the bottom 5. Take that away and the faction will be borderline unplayable.
Not sure why CSM have to go without a faction and subfaction tactic when everyone else gets one. I could see arguing for leaving the options open for any army instead of assigning one to a sub faction but just removing them from CSM seems unhelpful. If you pull malicious volleys the chainsword will be the only legionary you’ll see.
Faction warlord traits have been a thing for a while and I don’t see how removing them helps the book. I also don’t see how changing how information conveyed in the book helps CSM on the tabletop. The 5+ invul is there whether it’s a USR or not.
I’d hope the army would keep marks. It was lame to see them just become a keyword in 8th. As it is, they’re a good way to give CSM the ability to get a leg up in loyalist marines while increasing the points cost.
Adding in wargear costs will force some major choices for points rebalancing. As it is the upgrades are needed to get the base points back. Take that away and it’s codex cultist again. I’d take that option but without it the CSM squad becomes deadweight.
With no FNP or AP what is the point to taking the accursed cultist?
That autocannon profile is awful. Against MEQ it is flat worse than the heavy bolter. It’s useless against dreadnoughts at 2 DM’s, and it doesn’t threaten heavy armor.
Removing attacks across the board is a pretty heavy smack. The book does not have many good shooting options. It relies on melee to carry it. Without the attacks the shooting is still lukewarm while the teeth are taken from the bight in the codex.
Is the land raider tearing up games in your meta? I don’t see the need to make a perennial bottom feeder worse.
Overall a bunch of these proposals just make the codex worse for no return. If the book was playing like DA I could see it but as it is you’re going to make the book unplayable.
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Iron within, Iron without |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/12 22:10:44
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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If it was part of a game-wide reboot with less lethality, I’d agree with Vict. Though they and I disagree on what makes a good relic.
As a CSM-only change, Kiwi put it well.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/13 06:09:12
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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I'm sorry for the confusion evil-kiwi, I want to do basically the same thing for every faction, I've posted that in lots of places but I can't expect participants in this thread to have read those posts. Although it might be an interesting conversation to say whether the game only becomes better once all Combat Doctrines are removed, once all but two is removed, once half are removed or once one is removed. I actually think it is the last one, because the game only seems to have gone down-hill with each new codex release after Death Guard in 9th. I actually think Let the Galaxy Burn is one of the worst designed Combat Doctrines though, so I think even in a world where CSM gets some kind of Combat Doctrines, I'd like which one they get to change. But we're wishlisting on Dakka so I can imagine a world without any Combat Doctrines at all. Malicious Volleys doesn't do anything good for the game I don't think, removing it lowers lethality and simplifies the game. Remember, Marines are supposed to be the entry faction, Malicious Volleys is just a copy paste of an SM ability. I don't think too many noobs play CSM, but if the ability is removed from SM, there's no reason to keep it for CSM. It's interesting that chainswords are competitive against boltguns at the moment, that's good to hear. You could always add a points cost. I personally like the 1 AP, but that could be removed from the chainsword or you could add 1 AP to boltguns, I actually think there is lore support for that change and that would help make up for the lost lethality with Combat Doctrines and Malicious Volleys. Then the question becomes, what is the (C) SM anti-horde weapon, because even just AP -1 is enough to double damage against 2+ Svs, so you really need AP- to be a true anti-horde weapon in my opinion. Removing faction WL traits allows you to get a bigger variety without introducing more bloat to the game, if everyone shared the same 18 traits every faction would get more choice and it'd be simpler to learn all the ones in the game. GW would also be able to spend more time tuning those 18 traits than if they had to do 6*25=150 traits for the game. I think the marked-Stratagems in 8th did make a difference in terms of marks, but it also meant you just marked everything either Slaanesh or Khorne depending on whether it wanted to shoot twice or fight twice. CSM came out really early, it made sense for them to explore Stratagem design space. You can start by adding back the option costs at 1 pt/model, let them remain auto-includes and then slowly inch towards a balanced price. I forgot that I also want to nerf the HB Why would it matter whether Land Raiders are points efficient when I'm suggesting their rules be changed to fit with lore and to simplify the game? If Gretchin were 10 pts and T5 I would also want to change them to T2 even if they weren't tearing up any metas. If we assume CSM are balanced at the moment, then the return of removing stats and abilities would be lower points costs. I am not a genius so I can't tell you how much units would be worth after all the changes in a world where every other codex has had similar changes and the terrain rules and maybe a handful of other core rules have changed as well, so even going into it doesn't make sense. I don't even know the current points costs and which of them are too high or too low. I am not personally interested in CSM becoming anything other than balanced.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/13 06:12:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/13 16:59:16
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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vict0988 wrote:I'm sorry for the confusion evil-kiwi, I want to do basically the same thing for every faction
Chapter Tactics was literally one of GW's only good decisions in the last several editions
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/13 17:21:40
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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CSM should be balanced, but they should also match the lore.
You should be able to have ragtag rebels with pieced together gear and rotten discipline, and 10,000 year old veterans of the long war, with all the badassitude that entails.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/13 18:55:42
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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JNAProductions wrote:CSM should be balanced, but they should also match the lore.
You should be able to have ragtag rebels with pieced together gear and rotten discipline, and 10,000 year old veterans of the long war, with all the badassitude that entails.
Part of that would entail being able to mix/match other Legions and Marks where normally a Mark might not be accepted (or no mark at all).
What I had in mind was a system with the 9 main Legions have of course their Chapter Tactics with two parts, like usual. First part will 100% apply to everyone, but the second part might not. So for example, let's take Alpha Legion, which might not like Marks. Let's add two rules, -1 to hit as usual and something else. -1 to hit might apply to everyone, but maybe just units that are not marked and/or not Daemonkin don't receive whatever that second bonus.
Then you could do a difference between being Marked by a Chaos God and being full on dedicated like the Cult Marines are.
There's stuff you can do to get pure Legion or ragtag bunch of misfits in the same codex, but it required some effort.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/14 00:58:01
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Fixture of Dakka
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I'm not a huge fan of purity bonuses like doctrines, but I feel like the CSM book is the place that they'd make the most sense. You could let players select one of several doctrine-slot rules and use that rule to bring the army's theme together.
So for a few examples:
Khorne Devotees:
Requires the whole army be Khornate including any allied-in daemons. Grants the Blood Tithe mechanic.
Tzeentch Devotees:
Requires the whole army be Tzeentchy including any allied-in daemons. Non-vehicles can perform an action to boost your spellcasting.
Ancient Warriors:
Lets you take Chosen as troops. Improve the statlines of your astartes squad leaders.
Cult Leaders:
Lets you replace cultist champions with Aspiring Champions and unlocks some Brood Brothers type rules.
Chaos Undivided:
Earn Glory Points when a unit dedicated to a god accomplishes something. Units dedicated to a *different* god can spend the points of the god in the lead to fuel an Acts of Faith or Strands of Fate type rule. So if Khorne is showing them up, the Slaanesh/Tzeentch/Nurgle units will suddenly push themselves harder to save face.
So the idea is that you'd still have your chapter tactic equivalents to show your warband's unique quirks, but you'd have a doctrine slot option to represent their modus operandi that doesn't fit neatly into a chapter tactic. Your cult leader army looks and behaves differently from your Tzeentch army looks and behaves differently from your Undivided army.
Edit: I'd also have like, three-ish upgrade options available to non-vehicle units based on their devotion. So Nurgle units can buy +1T or Poison Ammo or a personal cloud of flies. Tzeentch armies can upgrade their squad leaders to psykers, boost their melee with mutations, or bind themselves to a psyker so they can be buffed from across the table. And then have a few generic options that can be taken by marked and unmarked units regardless of their devotion. Things like being extra scary, AL style dirty tricks, daemonic weapons, etc.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/14 01:03:01
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/14 09:45:04
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Chapter Tactics just added free stuff in 8th edition, hurting balance a lot. Can we agree the implementation was bad and they should have been added all at once in Chapter Approved?
I don't see many Imperial Fists Terminator Squads, so to me Chapter Tactics Flanderize factions, which seems like a shame. If you want a Blood Tithe you could tie it into a Datasheet or a Relic, same thing with providing psychic support from regular troops (something a CSM Diabolist or whatever he is called can already do by stabbing his minions).
If Chosen are balanced as Troops then let everyone take them as Troops. At a balanced points cost you can make an Alpha Legion army full of Cultists, a Black Legion army with lots of Chosen or a Company of Misery army with lots of CSM. I don't hate Chapter Tactics, I even have positive things to say about Combat Doctrines, I still think they need to go for the benefit of new players and casuals especially. Elaborate missions with extra thematic rules could be another way to replace some of the flavour.
GW made lots of good decisions, adding a wound to Space Marines, making flyers not block all movement, rule of 3, simplifying psychic tests and denial, 5" vertical engagement range to stop shenanigans, no free charges from DS, making Detachments cost CP instead of reward it, looking at and responding to tournament performance, getting competitive playtesters, removing DS mishaps, removing pages and pages worth of vehicle rules, progressive VP scoring, removing free Overwatch, removing FNP from DG, removing 6s doing additional damage from AdMech radium weapons, moving to unmodified 6s causing bonuses and removing other unintended combos, most point changes have improved the game, bringing back the Psychomancer, Plasmancer and Chronomancer, fewer unique ways of saying DS in each codex, removing fall back and shoot from units with FLY, moving faction secondaries into mission books.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/03/14 15:15:05
Subject: Chaos Marines 10th edition fixes
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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vict0988 wrote:Chapter Tactics just added free stuff in 8th edition, hurting balance a lot. Can we agree the implementation was bad and they should have been added all at once in Chapter Approved?
They really don't hurt balance. It only has when GW decides to stack two bonuses that are too strong together or if the subfaction gets bonuses on top of bonuses (see Deathwing as the primary offender, because as though Terminators wouldn't already enjoy the core Dark Angels tactics themselves.
Then defending Doctrines is just absurd.
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