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Hi all,

I was curious about this. It came up on the CSM thread so I thought I'd ask it here too.

I'm pretty sure that just having a single Superheavy Auxiliary with a DREADBLADE would unlock generic CK strats. That being through the AoO allies system.

You wouldn't get the House-specific ones though and retain AGENT OF CHAOS, if it wasn't a DREADBLADE etc.

Unless he's the Warlord, you wouldn't get Relics or Traits, as normal.

Any thoughts?

Best,
Samii.

I think a single DREADBLADE war dog in a Super Heavy Auxiliary gets access to CK strats.

I think I've spooted the issue, which is the first line in the this section.

A CHAOS KNIGHTS Detachment is one that only includes models with the CHAOS KNIGHTS keyword (excluding models with the AGENT OF CHAOS or UNALIGNED keywords).

CHAOS KNIGHTS Detachments gain the Traitoris Lances and Fallen Hero abilities.
CHAOS KNIGHTS units in CHAOS KNIGHTS Detachments gain the Towering Foe, Traitoris Ambitions and Household Bond abilities.
WAR DOG-CLASS units in CHAOS KNIGHTS Detachments gain the Objective Secured ability.

Note that CHAOS KNIGHTS Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments still get these Detachment abilities, even though Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments do not normally gain any Detachment abilities.

People get very very focused on that AGENT OF CHAOS part.

But, note that only CHAOS KNIGHT Detachments get the Fallen Hero ability.

What is Fallen Hero?

Fallen Hero

If this Detachment is a Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment that contains one DREADBLADE unit, until the end of the battle, that unit gains the AGENT OF CHAOS keyword. Only one DREADBLADE unit from your army can have this keyword.

The inclusion of a DREADBLADE AGENT OF CHAOS unit from your army does not prevent CHAOS units in your army from using any rules that require every model from your army to have the same keyword (e.g. Contagions of Nurgle, Cabbalistic Rituals, etc.).

This is what allows your single DREADBLADE to operate and not break your CSM rules.

Then the following determines what can use Chaos Knight strategems.

If your army includes any CHAOS KNIGHTS Detachments, you have access to these Stratagems, and can spend CPs to use them When one of these Stratagems instructs you to select a unit from your army, replace all instances of <DREAD HOUSEHOLD> on that Stratagem (if any) with the name of the Dread Household that your selected unit is drawn from (if the selected unit is a DREADBLADE, replace all instances of <DREAD HOUSEHOLD> on that Stratagem (if any) with DREADBLADE instead).

Note again, that you have to have a CK detachment, in order to get the Fallen Hero ability.

Same for Favours.

If your army is Battle-forged and includes any CHAOS KNIGHTS Detachments, then when you are mustering your army, you can upgrade any WAR DOG-CLASS, ABHORRENT-CLASS or TYRANT-CLASS models from your army by giving them one Favour of the Dark Gods, chosen from those presented here. Only one WAR DOG-CLASS model in each unit can be given a Favour of the Dark Gods.

But you don't get relics or warlord traits because the pages for the relics and traits require your warlord to be a CK to pick from them.

Hopefully if not right, someone will steam in now to disagree.

Samii wrote:
Hi all,

I was curious about this. It came up on the CSM thread so I thought I'd ask it here too.

I'm pretty sure that just having a single Superheavy Auxiliary with a DREADBLADE would unlock generic CK strats. That being through the AoO allies system.

You wouldn't get the House-specific ones though and retain AGENT OF CHAOS, if it wasn't a DREADBLADE etc.

Unless he's the Warlord, you wouldn't get Relics or Traits, as normal.

As EightFoldPath has noted, a Chaos Knights SHA detachment gains Chaos Knights detachment abilities and unlocks Chaos Knights Stratagems. If the unit in the detachment is a Dreadblade unit, it is an Agent of Chaos per the Fallen Hero rule and gains a Fell Bond per the Household Bond rule. It cannot gain Warlord traits or Relics unless a model in that unit is the Warlord.

I still think a detachment with one DREADBLADE in it is not a CHAOS KNIGHTS detachment. Why ? Because the detachment is "empty". The DREADBLADE gets AGENT OF CHAOS, as per fallen hero. And those models are excluded when it comes to determine if there is a CHAOS KNIGHTS model in that detachment, therefore not counting as a CHAOS KNIGHTS detachment. Because it is not a CHAOS KNIGHTS detachment you dont get access to fallen hero (you dont gain AGENT OF CHAOS, but how can gain AGENT OF CHAOS, when you dont get fallen hero ?), and no stratagems, only CHAOS KNIGHTS detachments give you stratagem access. The rule is broken.

A CHAOS KNIGHTS Detachment is one that only includes models with the CHAOS KNIGHTS keyword (excluding models with the AGENT OF CHAOS or UNALIGNED keywords).

Incorrect. It can only gain agents of chaos after it has been determined to be a CK detachment.
"CHAOS KNIGHTS Detachments gain the Traitoris Lances and Fallen Hero abilities"
Nothing states you lose the status of being a ck detachment.

Its not a CK detachment anymore once it gains AGENT OF CHAOS. Citation please when that CK detachment condition is checked.

That would be a recursive issue. It would only be an Agent of Chaos unit if it was in a Chaos Knights detachment. But if making it an Agent of Chaos made it not in a Chaos Knight detachment, than it cannot become an Agent of Chaos.

This doesn't matter because:

FALLEN HERO
Dreadblades often wander the galaxy, carving a path of destruction and aiding the forces of Chaos at their whim.

If this Detachment is a Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment that contains one DREADBLADE unit, until the end of the battle, that unit gains the AGENT OF CHAOS keyword. Only one DREADBLADE unit from your army can have this keyword.

The inclusion of a DREADBLADE AGENT OF CHAOS unit from your army does not prevent CHAOS units in your army from using any rules that require every model from your army to have the same keyword (e.g. Contagions of Nurgle, Cabbalistic Rituals, etc.).

The unit doesn't become an Agent of Chaos until the battle begins, not when placed in the detachment.

 p5freak wrote:
Its not a CK detachment anymore once it gains AGENT OF CHAOS. Citation please when that CK detachment condition is checked.

its checked when told.
Which is once. Before you gain the agent of chaos ability

Your continued insistence on weirdly reading the rules, seemingly purely to be contrarian, is noted. Stop.

Hmmmm I agree the wording of this type of rule is very odd...I wish they made it more clear, it's written very poorly so I don't think p5freak is trying to be a contrarian, just not interpreting the same as you'll are. I was the one that pointed out to the OP that he couldn't rotate bc a Super Heavy Aux doesn't get access to strats just Marks (favours) and fellbonds. I've emailed GW asking for clarification on this as it does matter obviously.

Do they get access to CK secondary objectives or is access to secondaries limited to the detachment your warlord is in? I'm not trying to be difficult here, just truly curious.

I find his arguments quite helpful sometimes in really stress testing your ability to say "no it works this way".

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Its not a CK detachment anymore once it gains AGENT OF CHAOS. Citation please when that CK detachment condition is checked.

its checked when told.
Which is once. Before you gain the agent of chaos ability

Citation please.

Nope. Wrong way round. Find a line saying it is EVER EVER checked again. Ever.

Until you can do so, you check it once, as instructed. At that point it's a CK detachment so gets the rule granting AOC.

So, proof of your position. Your iterating thriugh ruled has no rules support, so you will not be able to actually back up your position

Again.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nope. Wrong way round. Find a line saying it is EVER EVER checked again. Ever.

No, you said something, you have to back it up with a citation. If not, it cant be taken seriously.

 p5freak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nope. Wrong way round. Find a line saying it is EVER EVER checked again. Ever.

No, you said something, you have to back it up with a citation. If not, it cant be taken seriously.

Saved to quote back at you in future.

You’ve been asked to prove something, and your response is “no you prove it!” Barking “citation!” is not a way to argue.

While you are waiting, please explain how you can have an Agent of Chaos Dreadblade that is not in a Chaos Knights detachment. Remember, you have to be a Chaos Knights detachment for the Fallen Hero detachment rule to apply.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nope. Wrong way round. Find a line saying it is EVER EVER checked again. Ever.

No, you said something, you have to back it up with a citation. If not, it cant be taken seriously.

Saved to quote back at you in future.

You’ve been asked to prove something, and your response is “no you prove it!” Barking “citation!” is not a way to argue.

I have said what rules my opinion is based upon. Nosferatu didnt.

 alextroy wrote:
While you are waiting, please explain how you can have an Agent of Chaos Dreadblade that is not in a Chaos Knights detachment. Remember, you have to be a Chaos Knights detachment for the Fallen Hero detachment rule to apply.

Thats why the rule is broken.

p5freak wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
While you are waiting, please explain how you can have an Agent of Chaos Dreadblade that is not in a Chaos Knights detachment. Remember, you have to be a Chaos Knights detachment for the Fallen Hero detachment rule to apply.

Thats why the rule is broken.

Well, it would be except:

alextroy wrote:

FALLEN HERO
Dreadblades often wander the galaxy, carving a path of destruction and aiding the forces of Chaos at their whim.

If this Detachment is a Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment that contains one DREADBLADE unit, until the end of the battle, that unit gains the AGENT OF CHAOS keyword. Only one DREADBLADE unit from your army can have this keyword.

The inclusion of a DREADBLADE AGENT OF CHAOS unit from your army does not prevent CHAOS units in your army from using any rules that require every model from your army to have the same keyword (e.g. Contagions of Nurgle, Cabbalistic Rituals, etc.).

The unit doesn't become an Agent of Chaos until the battle begins, not when placed in the detachment.

Where does it say that ? I only see that the unit gains AGENT OF CHAOS until the end of the battle.

No p5, I backed up my argument. You failed to do so. You seem to think you can take army construction rules and cycle them
ANOTHER p5 failure. Just lock this thread. The answer is easy , proven, and not ambiguous. Waste of peoples time arguing with one bad actor.

 p5freak wrote:
Where does it say that ? I only see that the unit gains AGENT OF CHAOS until the end of the battle.

So you are saying it becomes an Agent of Chaos when it is placed in the detachment but mysteriously isn't one after the battle? Does that mean it isn't an Agent of Chaos in the next battle I fight with the same army?

I always read rules in a manner that makes them work and the words relevant. If the unit gains Agent of Chaos until the end of the battle, deductive reasoning says it gains it during a battle.

So I agree with nosferatu1001, I think we are done here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No p5, I backed up my argument. You failed to do so. You seem to think you can take army construction rules and cycle them
ANOTHER p5 failure. Just lock this thread. The answer is easy , proven, and not ambiguous. Waste of peoples time arguing with one bad actor.

I havent seen any citation that backed up your claim of "its checked when told. Which is once".

 alextroy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Where does it say that ? I only see that the unit gains AGENT OF CHAOS until the end of the battle.

So you are saying it becomes an Agent of Chaos when it is placed in the detachment but mysteriously isn't one after the battle?

Thats what the rule is saying. It gains AGENT OF CHAOS until the end of battle.

 p5freak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No p5, I backed up my argument. You failed to do so. You seem to think you can take army construction rules and cycle them
ANOTHER p5 failure. Just lock this thread. The answer is easy , proven, and not ambiguous. Waste of peoples time arguing with one bad actor.

I havent seen any citation that backed up your claim of "its checked when told. Which is once".

The citation is the permissive ruleset, that is just how games like this work. you only do things you are told to do, you don't do things willy nilly.

P5 barking “Citation needed” should be grounds for thread lock, as it always heralds the end of a thread’s utility.

I follow the tenets of YMDC, which say

1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.

You, Johnny OTOH just bark lock or ban p5freak, thats all you can do, instead of contributing something useful to a rules discussion. Its you who should get a break. You constantly violate tenet 1a by attacking me personally.

1a. Don't say that someone is wrong, instead you explain why you think their opinion is wrong. Criticize the opinion, not the person.

 p5freak wrote:
I follow the tenets of YMDC, which say

1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.

You, Johnny OTOH just bark lock or ban p5freak, thats all you can do, instead of contributing something useful to a rules discussion. Its you who should get a break. You constantly violate tenet 1a by attacking me personally.

1a. Don't say that someone is wrong, instead you explain why you think their opinion is wrong. Criticize the opinion, not the person.

I have literally never barked "lock or ban p5freak" I do not ever attack you personally.

Please do not be rude.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I follow the tenets of YMDC, which say

1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.

You, Johnny OTOH just bark lock or ban p5freak, thats all you can do, instead of contributing something useful to a rules discussion. Its you who should get a break. You constantly violate tenet 1a by attacking me personally.

1a. Don't say that someone is wrong, instead you explain why you think their opinion is wrong. Criticize the opinion, not the person.

I have literally never barked "lock or ban p5freak" I do not ever attack you personally.

Please do not be rude.

I meant JohnnyHell.

No, I gave a citation. The rule itself tells you when it processes. You are now required to state wheee you get to reprocess the rule. You cannot do so. It is impossible to do so. So instead, you're going to just complain