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Unstoppable Destroyer

Each time this model makes a pile-in or consolidation move, it can move an additional 1". Each time this model makes a pile-in or Heroic Intervention move, it can move in any direction, and can do so even if it is already touching an enemy model, so long as it finishes the move within Engagement Range of an enemy unit.

Am I right in understanding this means you are able to take a heroic intervention move with this model even if it is in engagement range? Also this would seem to mean it is legal to make a heroic intervention move while in engagement range and end that move in engagement range of that same unit.

Lastly, with the Praetorian Plate relic

Once per battle, in the Heroic Interventions step of your opponent’s Charge phase, if the bearer is not within Engagement Range of any enemy units, it can perform a teleport-shunt. Remove the bearer from the battlefield and set it up within 3" of a friendly unit (excluding VEHICLE units) and within Engagement Range of an enemy unit. If that is not possible, it cannot perform the teleport-shunt. The bearer cannot perform a Heroic Intervention in the same turn in which it performs a teleport-shunt.

Unstoppable Destroyer does not allow you to perform the Teleport-Shunt move while in engagement range because the rules for Praetorian Plate specifically say "if the bearer is not within Engagement Range of any enemy units", correct?

SarnXero wrote:

Unstoppable Destroyer

Each time this model makes a pile-in or consolidation move, it can move an additional 1". Each time this model makes a pile-in or Heroic Intervention move, it can move in any direction, and can do so even if it is already touching an enemy model, so long as it finishes the move within Engagement Range of an enemy unit.

Am I right in understanding this means you are able to take a heroic intervention move with this model even if it is in engagement range?

Only in certain circumstances.

The model with "Unstoppable Destroyer" can make a pile-in or Heroic Intervention move "even if it is already touching an enemy model" if that model is in engagement range of a unit, it has to be touching an enemy model to make a pile-in or Heroic Intervention move.

Also this would seem to mean it is legal to make a heroic intervention move while in engagement range and end that move in engagement range of that same unit.

No, you need to be in engagement range and already touching an enemy model to make the heroic intervention move. (But you can end that move in engagement range of that same unit, though there us usually no reason to do so.)

Lastly, with the Praetorian Plate relic

Once per battle, in the Heroic Interventions step of your opponent’s Charge phase, if the bearer is not within Engagement Range of any enemy units, it can perform a teleport-shunt. Remove the bearer from the battlefield and set it up within 3" of a friendly unit (excluding VEHICLE units) and within Engagement Range of an enemy unit. If that is not possible, it cannot perform the teleport-shunt. The bearer cannot perform a Heroic Intervention in the same turn in which it performs a teleport-shunt.

Unstoppable Destroyer does not allow you to perform the Teleport-Shunt move while in engagement range because the rules for Praetorian Plate specifically say "if the bearer is not within Engagement Range of any enemy units", correct?

Correct, as there is a restriction on the Praetorian Plate relic that states "if the bearer is not within Engagement Range of any enemy units" Being engaged would stop it from working.

Wow. This is a mess. Let's break it down.

Unstoppable Destroyer

Each time this model makes a pile-in or consolidation move, it can move an additional 1".

Easy. No further explanation required,

Each time this model makes a pile-in or Heroic Intervention move, it can move in any direction, and can do so even if it is already touching an enemy model, so long as it finishes the move within Engagement Range of an enemy unit.

There is no permission here to make a Heroic Intervention when within Engagement Range of an enemy unit. Just permission to move in any direction when doing so. Remember that you are always allowed to make a pile-in move, but you are normally required to move closer to the closest enemy model. This changes that even if you are already touching an enemy model.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Also this would seem to mean it is legal to make a heroic intervention move while in engagement range and end that move in engagement range of that same unit.

No, you need to be in engagement range and already touching an enemy model to make the heroic intervention move. (But you can end that move in engagement range of that same unit, though there us usually no reason to do so.)

Are you sure about that? The wording seems a bit off if that is the intention.

From Unstoppable Destroyer Captain Commander ability:
Each time this model makes a pile-in or Heroic Intervention move, it can move in any direction, and can do so even if it is already touching an enemy model, so long as it finishes the move within Engagement Range of an enemy unit.

I'm reading this rule as:
"Each time this model makes a pile-in it can move in any direction AND ALSO each time this model makes a Heroic Intervention move it can move in any direction, and this model can do so even if it is already touching an enemy model, BUT it MUST finishes the move within Engagement Range of an enemy unit.

the "and can do so even..." is the part that I'm focusing on. If the intention was only when touching an enemy model wouldn't the wording be something more in line with "when it is touching an enemy model" or "only if it is touching an enemy model"?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:

Each time this model makes a pile-in or Heroic Intervention move, it can move in any direction, and can do so even if it is already touching an enemy model, so long as it finishes the move within Engagement Range of an enemy unit.

There is no permission here to make a Heroic Intervention when within Engagement Range of an enemy unit. Just permission to move in any direction when doing so. Remember that you are always allowed to make a pile-in move, but you are normally required to move closer to the closest enemy model. This changes that even if you are already touching an enemy model.

I am seeing permission to make a Heroic Intervention when within Engagement Range of an enemy unit.

like I said in previous post
I'm reading this rule as:
"Each time this model makes a pile-in it can move in any direction AND ALSO each time this model makes a Heroic Intervention move it can move in any direction, and this model can do so even if it is already touching an enemy model, BUT it MUST finishes the move within Engagement Range of an enemy unit.

So if you can "make a Heroic Intervention move and can move in any direction and can do so even if it is already touching an enemy model" that implicitly allows you to make a Heroic Intervention move from engagement range because you must be in engagement range to be touching an enemy model. Since it does not say "can do so WHEN it is already touching an enemy model" or "IF it is touching an enemy model" that implicitly means you may so when not touching but in engagement range.

Rules should not be this open to interpretation. They should be clear and concise. I think I am correctly and fairly interpreting this as written but perhaps not as intended.

The rules for HI say:
"2. HEROIC INTERVENTIONS
Your opponent can now select an eligible Character unit from their army to perform a Heroic Intervention... An eligible Character unit is one that is not within Engagement Range of any enemy units" So we know only an eligible Character unit can make a HI move.

If a unit is within engagement range it is not eligible and can not make a HI move.

Unstoppable Destroyer does not over-ride the restriction about engagement range unless "it is already touching an enemy model"

Basically it is saying that each time this model makes a Heroic Intervention move, it can move in any direction, and can do so even if it is already touching an enemy model... If it is not already touching an enemy model there is no allowance to over-ride the HI restriction about being an eligible Character unit

But the rule does not say "unless it is already touching an enemy model" or When it is touching or If it is touching, It says EVEN IF it is touching. That part of the rule also applies to Pile-in moves. I think it is clear that the rule allows you to make a pile-in move that ends NOT closer to the nearest enemy model as long as you end that move in engagement range of ANY enemy unit. I also think it is clear that you do not have to be touching an enemy unit to make this pile-in move that does not end closer to the nearest enemy model. If that is the case, then why is that same part of the rules interpreted differently for Heroic Interventions?

In short, if I can pile-in in any direction without having to be touching an enemy model why not so for Heroic Interventions? The Unstoppable Destroyer rule must be overriding the restriction on Heroic Interventions from engagement range and not just to for when you are base to base.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly the more I have discussed this with some friends this weekend and now here too I think this rule mentioning Heroic Intervention is a typo and perhaps Consolidation moves was the actual intention for the rule. But it seems weird that in the long span of time the 9th custodes codex has been out that this has not been caught.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh wow!

So I didnt play in 8th, just recently came back. But I just checked out the 8th ed Unstoppable Destroyer rule and now I am convinced that Heroic Intervention is a typo and the intention was for it to be Pile-in and Consolidate not Pile-in and Heroic Intervention.

Unstoppable Destroyer: When this model piles in, it can move up to D3+3" and can end the move closer to any enemy model within that distance of this model. When this model consolidates, it can move up to D3+3" and does not have to end the move closer to the nearest enemy model.

SarnXero wrote:
But the rule does not say "unless it is already touching an enemy model" or When it is touching or If it is touching, It says EVEN IF it is touching. That part of the rule also applies to Pile-in moves. I think it is clear that the rule allows you to make a pile-in move that ends NOT closer to the nearest enemy model as long as you end that move in engagement range of ANY enemy unit.

No one was talking about pile in moves, but yes the rule does allow a model that is making a pile in move you to make a pile-in move that ends NOT closer to the nearest enemy model as long as you end that move in engagement range of ANY enemy unit.

Bu we weren't talking about Pile in moves.

Pile in does not have the eligible unit restriction like HI does.

I also think it is clear that you do not have to be touching an enemy unit to make this pile-in move that does not end closer to the nearest enemy model.

Why would you have to be touching an enemy unit to make this pile-in move? I was never talking about pile in, I was talking about the HI move.

If that is the case, then why is that same part of the rules interpreted differently for Heroic Interventions?

Because HI has a restriction about an eligible unit. Pile in doesn't.

In short, if I can pile-in in any direction without having to be touching an enemy model why not so for Heroic Interventions?

I feel like I am repeating myself, but it is because HI has a restriction about an eligible unit. Pile in doesn't.

The Unstoppable Destroyer rule must be overriding the restriction on Heroic Interventions from engagement range and not just to for when you are base to base.

There is nothing written in the Unstoppable Destroyer rule that over-rides the HI eligible unit restriction on Heroic Interventions from within engagement range but not touching a model.

It mentions allowing HI moves "even if it is already touching an enemy model" but nothing about allowing a HI move when it is not touching a model but still within engagement range.

Why would you have to be touching an enemy unit to make this pile-in move.

Because one must apply the rules the same for both Pile-ins and Heroic Interventions, correct? It is the same words, the same exact words, not even the same words repeated. If you do not have to be touching the enemy model for the any direction pile-in rule then why would those same exact words imply you must be touching the model for the any direction heroic intervention.

that being said

There is nothing written in the Unstoppable Destroyer rule that over-rides the HI eligible unit restriction on Heroic Interventions from within engagement range but not touching a model.

If the prior assumption is correct that the rule must be interpreted the same way for Pile-ins as for Heroic Interventions, then the logical conclusion is that the override of eligible unit for Heroic Interventions also applies to model in engagement range "even if it is touching" it does not state it requires it to touch or else that requirement would be on the pile-ins too.

But like I said, I now honestly believe the whole Heroic Intervention part is a typo and the intention was for Unstoppable Destroyer to apply to Pile-ins and Consolidates, not Heroic Interventions at all. That simplifies the issue immensely and makes the rest of the wording make much more sense.

SarnXero wrote:

Why would you have to be touching an enemy unit to make this pile-in move.

Because one must apply the rules the same for both Pile-ins and Heroic Interventions, correct? It is the same words, the same exact words, not even the same words repeated. If you do not have to be touching the enemy model for the any direction pile-in rule then why would those same exact words imply you must be touching the model for the any direction heroic intervention.

Why? Because HI has a restriction about an eligible unit. Pile in doesn't.

You apply the rules in the same way, but you need to take all of the other rules into account.

But pile-in rules are not what we are talking about, they do not matter. stop focusing on them.

that being said

There is nothing written in the Unstoppable Destroyer rule that over-rides the HI eligible unit restriction on Heroic Interventions from within engagement range but not touching a model.

If the prior assumption is correct that the rule must be interpreted the same way for Pile-ins as for Heroic Interventions...

Pile in moves are not what is being discussed. However, the rule is interpreted the same way for Pile-ins as for Heroic Interventions but, and again I feel like I am repeating myself, it is because HI has a restriction about an eligible unit. Pile in doesn't.

...then the logical conclusion is that the override of eligible unit for Heroic Interventions also applies to model in engagement range "even if it is touching" it does not state it requires it to touch or else that requirement would be on the pile-ins too.

It only over-rides HI if it is touching. because HI has a restriction about an eligible unit. Pile in doesn't. The logical conclusion is that the override of eligible unit for Heroic Interventions applies to a model "even if it is touching" But not simply within engagement range because of the HI restriction, as the Unstoppable Destroyer rule mentions "even if it is touching" but does not mention if it is in engagement range but not touching.

But like I said, I now honestly believe the whole Heroic Intervention part is a typo and the intention was for Unstoppable Destroyer to apply to Pile-ins and Consolidates, not Heroic Interventions at all. That simplifies the issue immensely and makes the rest of the wording make much more sense.

Yea maybe, but that is not what is currently written, so we have to go by what is written.

I think you are wrong. If the same exact string of words of the UNSTOPPABLE DESTROYER rule that modifies the rules in regards to Pile-in moves does not require the model to be touching an enemy model it logically follows the same exact string of words does not require the model to be touching an enemy model when it modifies the rules in regards to Heroic Intervention core rules. The UNSTOPPABLE DESTROYER rule changes the core rules in regards to both Pile-ins and Heroic Interventions and if that string of words applies to both (as it does) it can not require one thing in one instance and not the other. It MUST either require you to be touching the model for Pile-ins AND Heroic Interventions or it MUST NOT require it. As it is written it does not REQUIRE you to be touching an enemy model it just CLARIFIES that the modification to the core rules apply EVEN IF you are touching an enemy model. This is 100% clear.

UNSTOPPABLE DESTROYER doesnt say you can perform a heroic intervention while in engagement range of an enemy unit, so you cant.

SarnXero wrote:
I think you are wrong.

I have proven HI has a restriction about an eligible unit.

What part of that is wrong?

If the same exact string of words of the UNSTOPPABLE DESTROYER rule that modifies the rules in regards to Pile-in moves does not require the model to be touching an enemy model it logically follows the same exact string of words does not require the model to be touching an enemy model when it modifies the rules in regards to Heroic Intervention core rules.

It would logically follow if the same exact string of words does not require the model to be touching an enemy model when it modifies the rules if there were no restrictions or other rules in play.

But, at risk of repeating myself, HI has a restriction about an eligible unit. Pile in doesn't.

The UNSTOPPABLE DESTROYER rule changes the core rules in regards to both Pile-ins and Heroic Interventions and if that string of words applies to both (as it does) it can not require one thing in one instance and not the other. It MUST either require you to be touching the model for Pile-ins AND Heroic Interventions or it MUST NOT require it. As it is written it does not REQUIRE you to be touching an enemy model it just CLARIFIES that the modification to the core rules apply EVEN IF you are touching an enemy model. This is 100% clear.

You are missing that you need to take all the rules into account. It can require one thing in one instance and not the other because of the other rules in play.

One has a restriction on when you can use the move, one does not.

HI has a restriction about an eligible unit. Pile in doesn't. So that is why the rule affects Pile-ins and Heroic Interventions differently.

Your statements fail to take all of the rules into account. That is why your statements are not correct.

2. HEROIC INTERVENTIONS
Your opponent can now select an eligible CHARACTER unit from their army to perform a Heroic Intervention. An eligible CHARACTER unit is one that is not within Engagement Range of any enemy units, but is within 3" horizontally and 5" vertically of an enemy unit.

If you are in Engagement Range of an enemy unit, you are not eligible to perform a Heroic Intervention. Unstoppable Destroyer never changes eligibility of a unit to perform a Pile-In, Consolidation, nor Heroic Intervention. It only changes how they do so.

PERFORMING A HEROIC INTERVENTION
When a unit performs a Heroic Intervention, you can move each model in that unit up to 3" – this is a Heroic Intervention move. Each model in the unit must finish its Heroic Intervention move closer to the closest enemy model. Remember that a unit must finish any type of move in unit coherency.

Unstoppable Destroyer does change how you perform your Heroic Intervention.

Each time this model makes a pile-in or consolidation move, it can move an additional 1". Each time this model makes a pile-in or Heroic Intervention move, it can move in any direction, and can do so even if it is already touching an enemy model, so long as it finishes the move within Engagement Range of an enemy unit.

So, while Unstoppable Destroyer does not change when you can make a Heroic Intervention, it allows you to move in any direction (if you end that move in Engagement Range of an Enemy model) rather than closer to the closest enemy model. Thus, you could make a Heroic Intervention directly away from the closest enemy model if it ends with you in Engagement Range of an enemy model. However, you cannot make an Heroic Intervention if you are already within Engagement Range of an enemy model.

I'm convinced it is a misprint. It is supposed to say consolidation move and not heroic intervention move. Heroic Intervention doesn't make sense because it does not explicitly state it allows you make a heroic intervention move while in engagement range, which if that was the intention one would expect such an explicit statement. It then goes on to say "and can do so even if it is already touching an enemy model" which means if you can do so while base to base you can do so from engagement range but it is also worded with the phrase "can do so even" not when, not if, but up to and including base to base which alludes to some game state where models are not base to base but you can "move in any direction"

No, if Heroic Intervention was meant, then the rule is worded so poorly as to have no clear objective meaning.

Yet replace it with consolidation move and it makes perfect sense. Both Pile-ins and Consolidate moves are always initiated from engagement range, so there is the game state where models are not base to base but you can "move in any direction" now, and moving in any direction even when base to base clearly modifies the rules for Pile-ins and Consolidates.

I'm 100% convinced it is just supposed to say consolidation move.

SarnXero wrote:
Yet replace it with consolidation move and it makes perfect sense. Both Pile-ins and Consolidate moves are always initiated from engagement range, so there is the game state where models are not base to base but you can "move in any direction" now, and moving in any direction even when base to base clearly modifies the rules for Pile-ins and Consolidates.

Neither Pile-Ins nor Consolidate move are always initiated from Engagement Range. It is possible to Pile-In from outside Engagement Range if your unit charged but another unit destroyed all the models within Engagement Range of you. It is common to Consolidate when not in Engagement Range after destroying all the models you are in Engagement Range of.

That being said, the wording of Unstoppable Destroyer does make much more sense if you replace Heroic Intervention with Consolidation Move.