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2023/03/28 11:28:26
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Tyel wrote:Apple fox wrote:Can also give Sargent and commander models extra shots with las weapons, small but fun thing.
But that would just make the laspistol the auto-choice over the bolt pistol. (2 S3 AP- shots always being as good or better than 1 S4 AP- shot).
I think the issue is chicken and egg. Dudeface may be tired of it - but I'll bite.
From where we are, its impossible to give guard sergeant bolt pistols a meaningful points cost. I guess you could say 0.1-0.2 points or something - but at this level you can clearly round it down to zero with essentially zero impact on game balance. No one will win a game of 40k because they had a tiny number of S4 shots over S3 ones.
Its unlikely frankly that a game would be won or lost on a bunch of guard sergeants all having free plasma pistols - but this feels like a bigger jump. They probably should be a point or two (certainly not 5). But then we are left going "aha, you got 10 free plasma pistols across your army, you should have paid 10 points for them." But would the Guard player really have performed dramatically worse if he'd left 1.5 guard models at home? It seems unlikely.
Same with power swords. A Guard Sergeant swinning into a Marine with a power sword expects to do about 2.25 points worth of damage more than swinging with a chainsword. (Before any other rules.)
What's the "average" number of assault phases a Guard Sergeant gets to be in during a game? I suspect quite a bit less than 1.
So how many points is expecting to do 2.25~ points of additional damage if you get to swing worth? Given the amount of time the Guardsmen squad will get wiped without ever swinging at all (due to being either shot or charged), its certainly not worth 5. 1-2 points maybe?
Well we are back to "If the Guard player is getting 10 free points with his 10 free power swords, its hard to believe that's the reason he would win the game."
The thing is this logic applies throughout the game. Even having say 10 free melta guns vs lasguns doesn't necesarilly translate into as much of an uplift as you might think. And this is why Marines getting free points has made them good - but hasn't produced a 70% win rate as might have perhaps been expected.
Yes, but I also mention it for Sargent and commander only, so bolt pistol can be the iconic or standard sidearm for other command models. A flavour difference for players to decide on.
You could also have it be only when they don’t move, so it’s a option not a Garanty.
There are little fun options that can be pulled to ad little bits of flavour!
And if other parts of the game changes around it, then these become more valuable choices as well.
The issue with a lot of these discussions will always be it’s hard to discuss things in isolation, and with GW sucking at game design it’s even harder since something could swing even a small thing in a huge weird way.
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2023/03/28 13:08:32
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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yes, at least in the armies i play that have upgrade options.
Kairic Acolytes with dual blades are a meme because their damage output is gak anyway, so giving them a shield so they sometimes arent wiped when theyre targeted is the better option.
Taking horrors that do mortal wounds on death are also a total meme (because GW costs them the same as the ones that split). Like any sane person would pay 250pts for 10 wounds with a 5+ save that will do an average of 5 mortal wounds on death lol (VS 50 wounds if you take them as splits)
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2023/03/28 14:38:00
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Dudeface wrote: vict0988 wrote:What reason do I have to take a las pistol on a Sergeant?
I can give you a reason to upgrade to a bolt pistol even at 1 pt, +1 S. You don't have an argument for why 0 pt bolt pistols are better for the game.
I'm not rehashing this, it's not worth 1 point, arguably it's worth more than 0, good luck.
Why is S4 over S3 not worth 1 point? Automatically Appended Next Post: Dudeface wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote: Dolnikan wrote:
With melee weapons it's the same. Sure, a power sword comes with some advantages over a chainsword but for guard officers the difference is so small that it practically doesn't exist and very few people are willing to spend more on a guard officer just to make them a little bit more effective in melee. You generally won't be charging with them and if you get charged, well, chances are that you're dead anyways.
Then don't pay for the Power Sword if you feel that way. It's that easy.
You could argue these factor into wider list building, but only so far as they result ultimately in the above: do I need the points? If not will I get into melee? Etc.
Oh hey you're approaching the point. It's not my problem if you or Kan don't want to put a thought into list building. If the option is better than the default, it should cost more.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/28 14:40:44
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2023/03/28 14:46:07
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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I feel you could solve the guardsmen bolt pistol vs. laspistol dilemma forever by allowing them to take lasguns. 
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 blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
 the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
 Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
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2023/03/28 15:00:04
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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 vipoid wrote:I feel you could solve the guardsmen bolt pistol vs. laspistol dilemma forever by allowing them to take lasguns.
Doesn't the sarge get some Rapid 2 weapon now anyway?
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2023/03/28 15:19:30
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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A las pistol vs a bolt pistol into Marines:
1*1/2*1/3*1/3=0.05555.
1*1/2*1/2*1/3=0.83333.
Therefore the bolt pistol does 0.02777 more wounds. At 9 points a wound, that translates to doing 0.25 points worth of damage for each time you fire.
How often does a guard sergeant get to fire their pistol? Keeping in mind the limited range band - as if you are in range for a grenade, that is preferable.
Somewhere between zero and one?
Even if we said they always get to fire once, paying 1 point to do an average of 0.25 points more damage would be irrational. You are giving the opponent an extra point when they wipe the guard squad (as will likely happen, often without the pistol ever being fired at all).
Since I don't think on average you even get to fire once, 0.25 points is probably pushing it.
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2023/03/28 15:45:36
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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EviscerationPlague wrote: vipoid wrote:I feel you could solve the guardsmen bolt pistol vs. laspistol dilemma forever by allowing them to take lasguns.
Doesn't the sarge get some Rapid 2 weapon now anyway?
The Cadian Shock Troops Sergeant gets a "Drum-Fed Autogun".
DKoK get a Boltgun.
Infantry Squad Sergeants get the usual pistol options and a Boltgun option.
The jankiness of it all is that the various kits(or in the case of the Cadian Upgrade Frame) let you build a lasgun sergeant/watchmaster with no hefty conversion required. Same for the Scions and Kasrkin(who actually get hellguns as an option in KT and the instructions).
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2023/03/28 15:49:01
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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Tyel wrote:
A las pistol vs a bolt pistol into Marines:
1*1/2*1/3*1/3=0.05555.
1*1/2*1/2*1/3=0.83333.
Therefore the bolt pistol does 0.02777 more wounds. At 9 points a wound, that translates to doing 0.25 points worth of damage for each time you fire.
How often does a guard sergeant get to fire their pistol? Keeping in mind the limited range band - as if you are in range for a grenade, that is preferable.
Somewhere between zero and one?
Even if we said they always get to fire once, paying 1 point to do an average of 0.25 points more damage would be irrational. You are giving the opponent an extra point when they wipe the guard squad (as will likely happen, often without the pistol ever being fired at all).
Since I don't think on average you even get to fire once, 0.25 points is probably pushing it.
Thank you for doing the maths there, summed it up well. The other factor: is that bolt pistol worth 1/5(ish) of an extra body?
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2023/03/28 15:54:27
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Tyel wrote:
A las pistol vs a bolt pistol into Marines:
1*1/2*1/3*1/3=0.05555.
1*1/2*1/2*1/3=0.83333.
Therefore the bolt pistol does 0.02777 more wounds. At 9 points a wound, that translates to doing 0.25 points worth of damage for each time you fire.
How often does a guard sergeant get to fire their pistol? Keeping in mind the limited range band - as if you are in range for a grenade, that is preferable.
Somewhere between zero and one?
Even if we said they always get to fire once, paying 1 point to do an average of 0.25 points more damage would be irrational. You are giving the opponent an extra point when they wipe the guard squad (as will likely happen, often without the pistol ever being fired at all).
Since I don't think on average you even get to fire once, 0.25 points is probably pushing it.
Marines aren't your only target.
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2023/03/28 15:56:07
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Fixture of Dakka
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Tyel wrote:
A las pistol vs a bolt pistol into Marines:
1*1/2*1/3*1/3=0.05555.
1*1/2*1/2*1/3=0.83333.
Therefore the bolt pistol does 0.02777 more wounds. At 9 points a wound, that translates to doing 0.25 points worth of damage for each time you fire.
How often does a guard sergeant get to fire their pistol? Keeping in mind the limited range band - as if you are in range for a grenade, that is preferable.
Somewhere between zero and one?
Even if we said they always get to fire once, paying 1 point to do an average of 0.25 points more damage would be irrational. You are giving the opponent an extra point when they wipe the guard squad (as will likely happen, often without the pistol ever being fired at all).
Well then I guess it's a good thing victory is rarely measured by the values of slain squads. 
Seriously, as long as unit survival isn't a victory condition? So long as I end up with more VP than the other guy, they can table me for all I care.
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2023/03/28 16:03:31
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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EviscerationPlague wrote:Tyel wrote:
A las pistol vs a bolt pistol into Marines:
1*1/2*1/3*1/3=0.05555.
1*1/2*1/2*1/3=0.83333.
Therefore the bolt pistol does 0.02777 more wounds. At 9 points a wound, that translates to doing 0.25 points worth of damage for each time you fire.
How often does a guard sergeant get to fire their pistol? Keeping in mind the limited range band - as if you are in range for a grenade, that is preferable.
Somewhere between zero and one?
Even if we said they always get to fire once, paying 1 point to do an average of 0.25 points more damage would be irrational. You are giving the opponent an extra point when they wipe the guard squad (as will likely happen, often without the pistol ever being fired at all).
Since I don't think on average you even get to fire once, 0.25 points is probably pushing it.
Marines aren't your only target.
What else would you like the numbers for?
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2023/03/28 16:13:56
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Dudeface wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote:Tyel wrote:
A las pistol vs a bolt pistol into Marines:
1*1/2*1/3*1/3=0.05555.
1*1/2*1/2*1/3=0.83333.
Therefore the bolt pistol does 0.02777 more wounds. At 9 points a wound, that translates to doing 0.25 points worth of damage for each time you fire.
How often does a guard sergeant get to fire their pistol? Keeping in mind the limited range band - as if you are in range for a grenade, that is preferable.
Somewhere between zero and one?
Even if we said they always get to fire once, paying 1 point to do an average of 0.25 points more damage would be irrational. You are giving the opponent an extra point when they wipe the guard squad (as will likely happen, often without the pistol ever being fired at all).
Since I don't think on average you even get to fire once, 0.25 points is probably pushing it.
Marines aren't your only target.
What else would you like the numbers for?
You could go after any T3 target, really. Your argument makes no sense and is the equivalent of saying Flamers should be free for Marines because they don't help you against Imperial Knights. No gak they don't. Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and don't forget any target that's T6-7, because that doubles your damage vs using the Laspistol
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/28 16:14:57
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2023/03/28 16:21:26
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Against a Genestealer I get a .9 point return using the Bolt Pistol per shot. Neener neener.
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2023/03/28 16:28:11
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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 Insectum7 wrote:
Against a Genestealer I get a .9 point return using the Bolt Pistol per shot. Neener neener.
Yeah I just told him that Marines weren't the only target, so let's see how they like the math on that.
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2023/03/28 16:52:47
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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EviscerationPlague wrote: Insectum7 wrote:
Against a Genestealer I get a .9 point return using the Bolt Pistol per shot. Neener neener.
Yeah I just told him that Marines weren't the only target, so let's see how they like the math on that.
Lets follow that nids theme:
- gaunt (fleshborer) - 0.388889 points to the BP
- stealer - 0.88889 to the BP
- tyrant guard - 0.625 to the BP
So the ideal target for a bolt pistol on a guard squad leader is a highish (16+ point) T4 5+ save model, where if it gets to fire once it's nearly worth 1 point. I also can't actually think of any single model that will bring that level of return outside of the stealer off the top of my head.
Now we've had the pre-programmed gak flinging contest where you've got to try and find something to prove a 1 point upgrade can be justifiable in an incredibly narrow niche environment that somehow justifies it not being worth it into pretty much every other target in the game can we now agree that the level of needless bs granularity given by these upgrades and points scales shows they're not worth having if they exist purely for the sakes of having them?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/28 16:57:27
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2023/03/28 17:00:58
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Dudeface wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote: Insectum7 wrote:
Against a Genestealer I get a .9 point return using the Bolt Pistol per shot. Neener neener.
Yeah I just told him that Marines weren't the only target, so let's see how they like the math on that.
Lets follow that nids theme:
- gaunt (fleshborer) - 0.388889 points to the BP
- stealer - 0.88889 to the BP
- tyrant guard - 0.625 to the BP
Wow, look at that. So if you're playing aggressive and putting your infantry at the front, the Bolt Pistol is worth that point instead of being free! Automatically Appended Next Post: Dudeface wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote: Insectum7 wrote:
Against a Genestealer I get a .9 point return using the Bolt Pistol per shot. Neener neener.
Yeah I just told him that Marines weren't the only target, so let's see how they like the math on that.
Now we've had the pre-programmed gak flinging contest where you've got to try and find something to prove a 1 point upgrade can be justifiable in an incredibly narrow niche environment that somehow justifies it not being worth it into pretty much every other target in the game can we now agree that the level of needless bs granularity given by these upgrades and points scales shows they're not worth having if they exist purely for the sakes of having them?
That's not niche though. That's just one army. Should Mortars be free because Marines aren't the preferred target?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/28 17:01:57
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2023/03/28 17:03:16
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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EviscerationPlague wrote:Dudeface wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote: Insectum7 wrote:
Against a Genestealer I get a .9 point return using the Bolt Pistol per shot. Neener neener.
Yeah I just told him that Marines weren't the only target, so let's see how they like the math on that.
Lets follow that nids theme:
- gaunt (fleshborer) - 0.388889 points to the BP
- stealer - 0.88889 to the BP
- tyrant guard - 0.625 to the BP
Wow, look at that. So if you're playing aggressive and putting your infantry at the front, the Bolt Pistol is worth that point instead of being free!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote: Insectum7 wrote:
Against a Genestealer I get a .9 point return using the Bolt Pistol per shot. Neener neener.
Yeah I just told him that Marines weren't the only target, so let's see how they like the math on that.
Now we've had the pre-programmed gak flinging contest where you've got to try and find something to prove a 1 point upgrade can be justifiable in an incredibly narrow niche environment that somehow justifies it not being worth it into pretty much every other target in the game can we now agree that the level of needless bs granularity given by these upgrades and points scales shows they're not worth having if they exist purely for the sakes of having them?
That's not niche though. That's just one army. Should Mortars be free because Marines aren't the preferred target?
No it is niche, 1pt bolt pistols aren't common as you note and if you specifically fire them into 5+ save 15+ point T3/4 models then yes, they have minor value. I'd also note that whatever you just got inside 12" of is going to leave a bloody smear where they stood.
As usual you're ignoring the greater point, if something has such a negligible impact or cost that you basically use it to waste points, it should exist/cost points in the first place. This is because of poor design, of the unit, weapons, interactions and ultimately the points scale.
Also, mortars are already free.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/28 17:08:32
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2023/03/28 17:05:49
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Dudeface wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote:Dudeface wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote: Insectum7 wrote:
Against a Genestealer I get a .9 point return using the Bolt Pistol per shot. Neener neener.
Yeah I just told him that Marines weren't the only target, so let's see how they like the math on that.
Lets follow that nids theme:
- gaunt (fleshborer) - 0.388889 points to the BP
- stealer - 0.88889 to the BP
- tyrant guard - 0.625 to the BP
Wow, look at that. So if you're playing aggressive and putting your infantry at the front, the Bolt Pistol is worth that point instead of being free!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:EviscerationPlague wrote: Insectum7 wrote:
Against a Genestealer I get a .9 point return using the Bolt Pistol per shot. Neener neener.
Yeah I just told him that Marines weren't the only target, so let's see how they like the math on that.
Now we've had the pre-programmed gak flinging contest where you've got to try and find something to prove a 1 point upgrade can be justifiable in an incredibly narrow niche environment that somehow justifies it not being worth it into pretty much every other target in the game can we now agree that the level of needless bs granularity given by these upgrades and points scales shows they're not worth having if they exist purely for the sakes of having them?
That's not niche though. That's just one army. Should Mortars be free because Marines aren't the preferred target?
Mortars are free.....
You kinda missed the point there.
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2023/03/28 17:11:31
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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Which was what? Nobody gives a feth about you trying to beat a dumb topic to death with "but what if you don't shoot marines", the same faction you endemically point as being overpopulated in the community and game environments. Mortars are currently free. Should they be? No, but it's nothing to do with marines, it's because they're obviously better than a lasgun in a multitude of ways that affect the wider game and the units capabilities. If they gave infantry squads a heavy weapon as standard, no choice, then yes, make the mortar the free one, why not. Automatically Appended Next Post: In short, what I want form points in 10th isn't going to happen, which is to end this pointless dick waving about points. Because they won't and can't get them right as they are now without a radical shift in design of units, profiles and scales.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/28 17:13:07
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2023/03/28 17:43:36
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Dudeface wrote:
Which was what? Nobody gives a feth about you trying to beat a dumb topic to death with . . .
Reasonable arguments using the same technique you used in opposition.
Dudeface wrote:
In short, what I want form points in 10th isn't going to happen. .
Good! Because it's a dumb idea! If you don't want list-building granularity, play Power Level. If you want better balance, achieve it with a combination of stats, rules and points.
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2023/03/28 17:46:47
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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Insectum7 wrote:Dudeface wrote:
Which was what? Nobody gives a feth about you trying to beat a dumb topic to death with . . .
Reasonable arguments using the same technique you used in opposition.
Dudeface wrote:
In short, what I want form points in 10th isn't going to happen. .
Good! Because it's a dumb idea! If you don't want list-building granularity, play Power Level. If you want better balance, achieve it with a combination of stats, rules and points.
Well done, you're right the weapons can e balanced by any combination of stats, rules or points. It doesn’t need to be all 3 by default. I'm all for things costing points if it's a valid case and actually worth bothering with.
If a guardsman was 100 pts a 5 pt bolt pistol, sure whatever.
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2023/03/28 17:51:42
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Dudeface wrote:
Which was what? Nobody gives a feth about you trying to beat a dumb topic to death with "but what if you don't shoot marines", the same faction you endemically point as being overpopulated in the community and game environments.
I guess that just means you don't need to buy the Bolt Pistol in your particular local area. That doesn't mean it should be free just because you *only* do part a wound more to Marines.
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2023/03/28 17:52:12
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Insectum7 wrote:Dudeface wrote:
Which was what? Nobody gives a feth about you trying to beat a dumb topic to death with . . .
Reasonable arguments using the same technique you used in opposition.
Dudeface wrote:
In short, what I want form points in 10th isn't going to happen. .
Good! Because it's a dumb idea! If you don't want list-building granularity, play Power Level. If you want better balance, achieve it with a combination of stats, rules and points.
Implying any of those have ever done anything for balance. Points is as bad if not worse than PL, don't delude yourself.
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- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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2023/03/28 17:54:06
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Wayniac wrote:Implying any of those have ever done anything for balance. Points is as bad if not worse than PL, don't delude yourself.
What would you have be a balancing mechanism?
Bear in mind, it has to work both for veterans of the current game, people who used to play but have been away for a while, and completely new people.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2023/03/28 18:02:04
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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 JNAProductions wrote:Wayniac wrote:Implying any of those have ever done anything for balance. Points is as bad if not worse than PL, don't delude yourself.
What would you have be a balancing mechanism?
They don't have an idea, it'll just be the same rehashed "oh just don't do XYZ"
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2023/03/28 18:11:09
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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EviscerationPlague wrote:Dudeface wrote:
Which was what? Nobody gives a feth about you trying to beat a dumb topic to death with "but what if you don't shoot marines", the same faction you endemically point as being overpopulated in the community and game environments.
I guess that just means you don't need to buy the Bolt Pistol in your particular local area. That doesn't mean it should be free just because you *only* do part a wound more to Marines.
They only do a part wound to everything, they should be 0 points because the largest time their return value is significantly less than 1 per game.
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2023/03/28 18:25:09
Subject: Re:Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Spin-off thread to discuss points alternatives, so as to avoid cluttering this one too badly.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2023/03/28 18:58:24
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Dudeface wrote: Insectum7 wrote:Dudeface wrote:
Which was what? Nobody gives a feth about you trying to beat a dumb topic to death with . . .
Reasonable arguments using the same technique you used in opposition.
Dudeface wrote:
In short, what I want form points in 10th isn't going to happen. .
Good! Because it's a dumb idea! If you don't want list-building granularity, play Power Level. If you want better balance, achieve it with a combination of stats, rules and points.
Well done, you're right the weapons can e balanced by any combination of stats, rules or points. It doesn’t need to be all 3 by default.
And the compelling argument for removing one of the three is????
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2023/03/28 19:00:40
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Insectum7 wrote:Dudeface wrote: Insectum7 wrote:Dudeface wrote:
Which was what? Nobody gives a feth about you trying to beat a dumb topic to death with . . .
Reasonable arguments using the same technique you used in opposition.
Dudeface wrote:
In short, what I want form points in 10th isn't going to happen. .
Good! Because it's a dumb idea! If you don't want list-building granularity, play Power Level. If you want better balance, achieve it with a combination of stats, rules and points.
Well done, you're right the weapons can e balanced by any combination of stats, rules or points. It doesn’t need to be all 3 by default.
And the compelling argument for removing one of the three is????
They're lazy
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2023/03/28 19:01:55
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Wayniac wrote: Insectum7 wrote:Dudeface wrote:
Which was what? Nobody gives a feth about you trying to beat a dumb topic to death with . . .
Reasonable arguments using the same technique you used in opposition.
Dudeface wrote:
In short, what I want form points in 10th isn't going to happen. .
Good! Because it's a dumb idea! If you don't want list-building granularity, play Power Level. If you want better balance, achieve it with a combination of stats, rules and points.
Implying any of those have ever done anything for balance. Points is as bad if not worse than PL, don't delude yourself.
I don't have to even argue my point, because you already have power level for those of you unwilling to see the light of day.
Also, if the combination of rules, stats and points are useless for balancing . . . What do you propose one balances with?
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