10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Terrain pg 46

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**Snugiraffe**

Breton wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Back in the day, a Space Marine captain had almost no hope of defeating some of these things, like Bloodthirsters, Avatars, Hive Tyrants etc.

Back in the day, Space Marine Captains had a base Weapon Skill 7, Strength 5, Toughness 5 without special armor to access it and had access to wargear that let them easily go toe to toe with a Greater Daemon.

I'm still curious why the Marine centerpiece model shouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe with the Daemon centerpiece model. Because its Marines and they're icky?

Centrepiece or no, the SM Captain's equivalent in a Chaos Marine army is the Chaos Lord. And Chaos Lords are almost* as likely to die underfoot fighting a Greater Daemon.
* But they can be friends, instead, and do each other's hair.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Sod it. I’m gonna finish off my vintage rules collections and see if I can’t get a Sad Old Git Society going in Folkestone. 2nd Ed 40K and Epic would be my preference. Only three Codexes and Titan Legions to go!

Right, I'm moving to Folkestone. Finally a place for one more Sad Old Git to call home!

**Crispy78**

I'd consider popping in to be re-educated in the Old Ways, but Folkstone is a bit of a trek from Southampton...

**catbarf**

Breton wrote:
I'm still curious why the Marine centerpiece model shouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe with the Daemon centerpiece model. Because its Marines and they're icky?

Being the top characters in their respective armies doesn't mean anything. I don't expect Company Commanders to go toe-to-toe with Hive Tyrants, or Crisis Suit Commanders on even footing with Avatars, and an Archon is a pretty capable fighter but his odds against a Warboss aren't great. While a SM Captain is significantly better than any human character (and should be able to take on a Chaos Lord, his actual direct equivalent) he's far from top dog in a universe full of eldritch horrors.

It's less 'because its Marines and they're icky' and more because a Captain, for all his experience and physical prowess, is not a thirty-foot-tall ancient supernatural embodiment of violence. Why would they be equals to begin with?

**Tsagualsa**

More stuff on Datasheets:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/03/warhammer-40000-the-anatomy-of-a-new-datasheet

It confirms what we deduced about Leadership: it's roll 2D6, score higher than the printed value.

**Siegfriedfr**

03/04/2023

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/03/warhammer-40000-the-anatomy-of-a-new-datasheet/

What is OC?

Objective Control – or OC – is a measure of how well a unit can secure critical locations. each model has an OC characteristic, and to determine who controls an objective, you simply count up the total OC of all models within range. This small but impactful change breathes new life into basic troops – taking and holding ground is a newfound specialty and a clear key to victory.

Warriors that were previously categorised as Troops will generally have a higher OC than elite units – whose job is not to hold ground, but to strike and move on. Vehicles and Monsters also earn a more substantial OC, so Knights and the like can muscle smaller units off objectives.

How does Leadership work?

Leadership is much more impactful in the new edition. Your units’ morale is now gauged with a Battle-shock test. Many factors can force a unit to test for Battle-shock, including being below Half-strength during the Command Phase. Fail and they struggle to capture objectives, use Stratagems, or Fall Back from combat.

You’ll also notice that Leadership now counts upwards. Our Intercessor has LD 6+ – which is equivalent to his old value of 8.

What’s happened to WS, BS, S, and A?

Offensive characteristics are still very much in the game – but they now live on weapon profiles, to help keep datasheets clear and easy to read.

Weapon profiles explained

Everything you need to take a shot or a swing at your enemies is now contained in an individual weapon profile – everything from Attacks to Weapon Skill to Damage is all in one place. This means that weapons like power fists, which used to need text to explain that they made things harder to hit, now have their own hit roll statistic.

Moreover, weapon profiles are tied to individual units – so a chainsword in the hands of a Space Marine is deadlier and easier to hit with than one held by a snivelling cultist.

The fundamental interactions haven’t changed – equal Strength and Toughness still means you wound on a roll of 4+, and so forth. It’s just that all of a weapon’s quirks are contained in its Core Abilities.

Many different effects are covered by Core Abilities, from classic weapon types like Assault and Rapid Fire to auto-hits from flame weapons.

**Arachnofiend**

A lot of this is just taking things that existed in 9th as multiple paragraphs of special rules for whatever factions needed it into a single box on the datasheet. This is a good thing, obviously.

**Nightlord1987**

I play with a relatively newbie, playing garage hammer, and I can already see an improvement having everything on one card, and listed out, rather than cycling through Str- user, Str +2, and having my partner fumble through the book to find the unit profiles.

**Daedalus81**

Yea it's a huge boon to getting people into the game.

**xerxeskingofking**

so, supposition here, but i infer form the statment that a unit that fails its battleshock test will "struggle to capture objectives" to mean that failing the test imposes some modifer to the units OC stats, either indevidually or as a group. So, it could be a flat -1 to OC, or maybe the effective OC is halved when determining objective control, etc.

logically, i would assume their might also be abilities that grant extra OC to units, such as some WLTs, auras, or relics (especially ones links with granting ObSec in the current rules)

**Nevelon**

xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, supposition here, but i infer form the statment that a unit that fails its battleshock test will "struggle to capture objectives" to mean that failing the test imposes some modifer to the units OC stats, either indevidually or as a group. So, it could be a flat -1 to OC, or maybe the effective OC is halved when determining objective control, etc.

logically, i would assume their might also be abilities that grant extra OC to units, such as some WLTs, auras, or relics (especially ones links with granting ObSec in the current rules)

Sounds like a good guess. Depending how it counts will determine if it’s unit or model based. If your average mini has 1 OC per model, are we going to deal with fractions?

On the second point, I’d like to see battle standards give an OC bonus. Hold the objective to the last (by letting the guys count as many) seems more in flavor than fight on death.

**pgmason**

Nevelon wrote:

On the second point, I’d like to see battle standards give an OC bonus. Hold the objective to the last (by letting the guys count as many) seems more in flavor than fight on death.

Oh I really like that idea. Planting your flag on the objective and fighting off all comers seems very 40k.

**Arachnofiend**

Nevelon wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, supposition here, but i infer form the statment that a unit that fails its battleshock test will "struggle to capture objectives" to mean that failing the test imposes some modifer to the units OC stats, either indevidually or as a group. So, it could be a flat -1 to OC, or maybe the effective OC is halved when determining objective control, etc.

logically, i would assume their might also be abilities that grant extra OC to units, such as some WLTs, auras, or relics (especially ones links with granting ObSec in the current rules)

Sounds like a good guess. Depending how it counts will determine if it’s unit or model based. If your average mini has 1 OC per model, are we going to deal with fractions?

On the second point, I’d like to see battle standards give an OC bonus. Hold the objective to the last (by letting the guys count as many) seems more in flavor than fight on death.

What if instead of making the squad double count, the banner carrier counted as a whole squad unto himself? Sure paints an image of the sole survivor hoisting his flag on the bodies of the comrades who perished to ensure he'd stay standing...

I immediately realized that this might make bannermen too good, though probably a good sign that the mechanical concept got me overexcited

**Spoletta**

A unit which fails battle shock will probably get a -1 OC. This means that non-troops cannot control objectives, while troops even in disarray can still do it.

It is interesting that this happens at the start of the command phase. Objective counting is (right now) at the end of the command phase. So it may really mess up your plans.

**The Red Hobbit**

I'm curious if OC 2 will be the baseline for all troops and OC 1 will be the baseline for all non-troops. Presumably ultra elites like Custodes might be OC 3-4 and Knights higher.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Tsagualsa wrote:
More stuff on Datasheets:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/03/warhammer-40000-the-anatomy-of-a-new-datasheet

It confirms what we deduced about Leadership: it's roll 2D6, score higher than the printed value.

That sounds like an improvement, really.
It was kind of odd in the earlier systems how you want to roll high for everything except for morale. This change makes it a little more consistent.

Also, apparently morale doesn't kill models now, and instead applies debuffs? I like that, I never liked the 8th ed morale mechanic where individual soldiers just "ran away" and was effectively just another way to killing units.
I preferred it when units actually broke and ran away.

Hopefully broken squads are pinned this time instead of having stress-induced heart attacks.

How is 6+ LD equivalent to LD8?
If my calculations are right,

LD8 had about a 66% chance of success.
6+ LD has about a 58% chance of success,
That would mean that marines are easier to break now.
6+ LD would actually be comparable to LD7.

**JakeSiren**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
How is 6+ LD equivalent to LD8?

If my calculations are right,

LD8 had about a 66% chance of success.
6+ LD has about a 58% chance of success,

That would mean that marines are easier to break now.

6+ LD would actually be comparable to LD7.

I'm not sure what you are trying to calculate here. 10th Ed morale / leadership mechanics are different than 8th/9th.

8th/9th is checking if d6 + models lost > leadership.
10th is needing a 6+ on 2d6 (plus whatever modifiers they decide).

As to how they are equivalent? Who knows, GW hasn't painted the full picture, just claimed that they are.

**PenitentJake**

But Marines of course shall Know No Fear and be immune anyways... Unless you want a subfaction identity, in which case you'll pick a detachment, which will replace Know No Fear.

**Daedalus81**

PenitentJake wrote:
But Marines of course shall Know No Fear and be immune anyways... Unless you want a subfaction identity, in which case you'll pick a detachment, which will replace Know No Fear.

That's jumping the gun, I think. ATSKNF will likely be on datasheet and I highly doubt they'll be immune.

**nordsturmking**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:
More stuff on Datasheets:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/03/warhammer-40000-the-anatomy-of-a-new-datasheet

It confirms what we deduced about Leadership: it's roll 2D6, score higher than the printed value.

That sounds like an improvement, really.
It was kind of odd in the earlier systems how you want to roll high for everything except for morale. This change makes it a little more consistent.

Also, apparently morale doesn't kill models now, and instead applies debuffs? I like that, I never liked the 8th ed morale mechanic where individual soldiers just "ran away" and was effectively just another way to killing units.
I preferred it when units actually broke and ran away.

Hopefully broken squads are pinned this time instead of having stress-induced heart attacks.

How is 6+ LD equivalent to LD8?
If my calculations are right,

LD8 had about a 66% chance of success.
6+ LD has about a 58% chance of success,
That would mean that marines are easier to break now.
6+ LD would actually be comparable to LD7.

They could be refering to old editions were LD test was roll 2d6 and if you rolled lower than 8 you passed. rolling 6+ with 2d6 is the same chance as rolling 8 oder lower.

Daedalus81 wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
But Marines of course shall Know No Fear and be immune anyways... Unless you want a subfaction identity, in which case you'll pick a detachment, which will replace Know No Fear.

That's jumping the gun, I think. ATSKNF will likely be on datasheet and I highly doubt they'll be immune.

ATSKNF could be a reroll like in the older editions.

**Tyran**

Looking at the new Terminator datasheet card, ATSKNF seems to be gone.

IMHO good riddance, ATSKNF should be represented by a good leadership characteristic.

**Daedalus81**

TORRENT!
ANTI-VEHICLE!

Flamers and chain fists are back!!

**Echeloon**

Do you think objectives scoring (and measures, 40mm + 3") will remain the same?

**nordsturmking**

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/04/just-how-tough-are-terminators-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/
so termis have T5 now... i really hope custodes will have T6 other wise this is a fething joke

**Daedalus81**

USRS WITH X!!

**godswildcard**

Have they said if all POSSIBLE weapon options for a unit will be on the unit's data sheet? The Termie data sheet gives me hope that's the case. It's so annoying to have to randomly cycle to the weapons reference section for a random weapon or two because not everything is listed under the data sheet right now...

**ikeulhu**

Had a feeling going with just "power weapon" and "force weapon" was one of the ways they were going to go about consolidating weapon options in 10th, looks like that turns out to be right based on the Termie sheet (still don't know for sure about Force but figure if they consolidated power then that is likely too)

**Daedalus81**

ikeulhu wrote:
Had a feeling going with just "power weapon" and "force weapon" was one of the ways they were going to go about consolidating weapon options in 10th, looks like that turns out to be right based on the Termie sheet (still don't know for sure about Force but figure if they consolidated power then that is likely too)

Err these terminators only ever had a sword. What is there to consolidate?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I LOVE this design. A strat that moves you on their turn.

**ikeulhu**

Daedalus81 wrote:
ikeulhu wrote:
Had a feeling going with just "power weapon" and "force weapon" was one of the ways they were going to go about consolidating weapon options in 10th, looks like that turns out to be right based on the Termie sheet (still don't know for sure about Force but figure if they consolidated power then that is likely too)

Err these terminators only ever had a sword. What is there to consolidate?

And the sheet still always said power sword, not power weapon. This is a likely (not definite, but more probable they would have just put power sword instead of weapon if they were not consolidating) sign that the power sword, axe, and maul that can be used by other units (like DW termies or Wolf Guard for example) will just become "power weapon"

**Daedalus81**

Ah, right. It's probably like the accursed weapons - things without a ton of distance between each other.

**vipoid**

What does GW have against printing Invulnerable Saves on the statline?

"We put the model's toughness, saves and wounds on the top-left of the page, so that they're all together and easy to see at a glance . . . except for the Invulnerable Save which we instead put on the bottom-right of the page, as far from the other stats as possible."