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going for 3D prints, question is why even bother with LI in the first place

chance that it is a better game than net-Epic or any other version is pretty low
only reason was because of the plastic models and maybe more people playing it, if models are too expensive that won't be the case either

 kodos wrote:
going for 3D prints, question is why even bother with LI in the first place

For the same reason people play with last version officially supported in all games : to find a community to play with.

When LI will launch, it will be advertised in GW stores and that's a perfect time for players to show up. Popularity of which version played in local communities will then be able to follow. Either way, usually going for the current version being supported is a default way to find players more easily.

I'll stick to my prediction from early on in the preview cycle, ultimately all Legions will accomplish is the same as other Specialist Games reboots: further fragmenting the existing player base as some switch to the latest officially supported system, but total player base practically doesn't grow due to inaccessible pricing (and probably the usual Specialist Games slow release schedule)

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'll stick to my prediction from early on in the preview cycle, ultimately all Legions will accomplish is the same as other Specialist Games reboots: further fragmenting the existing player base as some switch to the latest officially supported system, but total player base practically doesn't grow due to inaccessible pricing (and probably the usual Specialist Games slow release schedule)

But the money in GWs pockets will grow so counts as a success for them

Yeah, Necromunda does not get more players here
If I want to play it, it is as easy to find players doing the current official rules as those still playing the internet version

did not become any easier with the official release and I cannot see how this will be different with LI, except the rules will be really a big improvement over the other versions

Say what you want. The community playing with old rules is still happy to have LI coming, because whatever you think about LI rules, fact is new players will come to buy the new release and seek for a community to play with. That's when they can recruit new blood more easily instead of being old crabs playing in the same basket or struggling with 3rd party ways to acquire the game components. Just like Blood Bowl community gathered new players when the game finally came back after all this time with new plastic teams, just like Necromunda gained a new stream of players when it came back with new plastic kits. Plus, when miniatures are officially supported and still sold on the GW website, that means they have another public window to let new players come in at a later, yet slower pace.

Just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it didn't happen at the time. And it will happen again with LI.

Sarouan wrote:
Say what you want. The community playing with old rules is still happy to have LI coming, because whatever you think about LI rules, fact is new players will come to buy the new release and seek for a community to play with. That's when they can recruit new blood more easily instead of being old crabs playing in the same basket or struggling with 3rd party ways to acquire the game components. Just like Blood Bowl community gathered new players when the game finally came back after all this time with new plastic teams, just like Necromunda gained a new stream of players when it came back with new plastic kits. Plus, when miniatures are officially supported and still sold on the GW website, that means they have another public window to let new players come in at a later, yet slower pace.

Just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it didn't happen at the time. And it will happen again with LI.

Yes, people buy into the new hotness. But I haven't seen a single person playing them a year after the reboot that wasn't already playing them 10 years prior

Blood Bowl was slightly different as they did not really got new rules, just the existing rules with new models/sets
and locally, BlitzBowl has done more the get new players to BB than new BB boxes

a new stream of players for Necromunda is not really there
it got the old guys playing again who were happy to finish their collection with plastic models instead of hunting down the metal on ebay
but not many new ones and most not really finish a single campaign but left early on

local scene are always different of course outside the main games (AoS and 40k) but that is the point, just because there is a new box does not essentially mean new players
specially if the only real source for gaming material is 3D printing as otherwise it is too expensive

if LI ends up with "need to 3D print" the stream of new players is the same as it was before

 lord_blackfang wrote:


Yes, people buy into the new hotness. But I haven't seen a single person playing them a year after the reboot that wasn't already playing them 10 years prior

Like I said : just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it didn't or doesn't happen. If it comforts you in your vision of "LI sucks and will fail", no problem keep going. Still doesn't make it the reality around what you don't see / don't want to see.

it doesn't matter if somewhere else it happend and therefore you cannot see it, if it does not happen were one is playing the general assumption of "it will bring new players not matter what" is not true

somewhere it will push the scene, but not everywhere and there is a good chance it will only be there were already find an 3D printing infrastructure for Epic

 kodos wrote:
Blood Bowl was slightly different as they did not really got new rules, just the existing rules with new models/sets
and locally, BlitzBowl has done more the get new players to BB than new BB boxes

a new stream of players for Necromunda is not really there
it got the old guys playing again who were happy to finish their collection with plastic models instead of hunting down the metal on ebay
but not many new ones and most not really finish a single campaign but left early on

local scene are always different of course outside the main games (AoS and 40k) but that is the point, just because there is a new box does not essentially mean new players
specially if the only real source for gaming material is 3D printing as otherwise it is too expensive

if LI ends up with "need to 3D print" the stream of new players is the same as it was before

Necromunda is more a narrative game than a competitive one. People playing Necromunda tend to play in small groups, just like Warcry, instead of being loud in tournaments and the Internet in general. That's why you tend not to see them if you're not part of that community. A Necromunda tournament makes no sense, but a campaign very much does.

Blood Bowl is slightly different on that matter because it was always good for tournaments, simply because of its nature of a sport game (somewhat ). So it does have a strong community online that was faithful for all these years. Epic community does organize tournaments as well, even though it's a bit more "niche".

All of these communities took advantage of when GW support the game, even if it's just selling some miniatures or let rules to download on their website. That's why Blood Bowl and Necromunda players were glad to see the games coming back, even if they weren't interested specifically in investing in the new rules. Blood Bowl community did have a debate at the time of second season changes, but most of it rolled with it because...well, it was the official version and it was easier to recruit new players that way.

That's why new version of rules is always the best way to gather new players, and the community of "rebels" playing old version always takes advantage of the situation to sneakily "steal" a few of these new players here and there to gain new followers of their vision. Either way, it's a win-win situation : GW still gets some money and communities of players get precious new blood to keep playing. And if GW shuts down the game again...doesn't matter, infrastructure and options were there before thus they will still be there after (even if some changed meanwhile, but that's life : constant change and adaptation). LI will be in the exact same situation, I believe.

Sarouan wrote:
Just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it didn't happen at the time. And it will happen again with LI.

I think Epic is one game where GW releasing their version again could actively hurt the community, because it was a game that was very well suited to 3D printing and I think that was helping to revive it before GW decided to pick it up again.

But we'll see.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
Just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it didn't happen at the time. And it will happen again with LI.

I think Epic is one game where GW releasing their version again could actively hurt the community, because it was a game that was very well suited to 3D printing and I think that was helping to revive it before GW decided to pick it up again.

But we'll see.

A community of maybe a couple hundred people worldwide is about to swell to a community of thousands of people. There will be the same issue with 30k where the few that stuck with the game will be loud about thinking the new version is 'hurting' them somehow, when GW isn't forcing them to do anything or play with anyone they don't want to play with.

If you don't care about the company or what they do, 3d print it all and use the net rules.

If you like the new direction and models and can swallow the price, support the company-made game, as it'll improve the chances it'll get further support.

The asinine thought-pattern is to think you can enjoy the new content while 3d printing everything and not supporting the company. If you 3d print a bunch of stuff and convince many others to do the same, don't be surprised if the new epic gets put on the back burner and doesn't get the support you want.

drbored wrote:
If you don't care about the company or what they do, 3d print it all and use the net rules.

That's assuming GW doesn't become more active in taking down 3D models given that they're releasing a "competing" product, if it becomes harder to find models then that becomes less of an option.

And even if the community rules are better, people will tend to want to play GW's current rules, so I think it's more likely that either everyone jumps onto GW's new rules or the existing communities become splintered (albeit with new fans that may or may not last the distance).

But we'll see, I'm not saying that's what is going to happen, I'm just thinking it's something that could happen, GW supporting a game like Epic isn't necessarily the best thing these days. As an Epic fan I'm not really jumping up and down excited to pay GW more money to buy models I was 3D printing yesterday anyway to play what on the surface looks like a less fun rules system.

Also, I don't know how many people are like me, maybe I'm just a weirdo, but I don't really like 3D printing models I can buy. I was happy 3D printing 30 Predators at 8mm scale when GW wasn't selling them, now that I know GW are making them it's actually put me off building my Epic Space Marine armies that I had been working on because I don't like printing what GW make but I'm probably not going to pay modern GW prices to get a full army from them either. I've actually swapped more to my Epic Tyranids But mostly my Epic armies are on hold for now.

If you 3d print a bunch of stuff and convince many others to do the same, don't be surprised if the new epic gets put on the back burner and doesn't get the support you want.

That kind of goes against your previous thought of "A community of maybe a couple hundred people worldwide is about to swell to a community of thousands of people."

Sarouan wrote:
8 bases looks like a core Legion demi-company. TBH I wonder about the need of having a high number of drop pods in a regular army. Sure, it's nice to capture an objective with OS infantry deep in the battlefield, but it's like deep strike terminators : it's nice to have as an asset, but it's too "one-trick pony" to be really focusing its whole army with multiple detachments.

Feels like I can get away with just 2 boxes of 4 drop pods at best. If they're the price of half a box of 10 rhinos, I won't mind (I feel like I will have a "leftover" of rhinos if I take that box, IMHO).

"Too many Rhinos" is the name of my band.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
Just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it didn't happen at the time. And it will happen again with LI.

I think Epic is one game where GW releasing their version again could actively hurt the community, because it was a game that was very well suited to 3D printing and I think that was helping to revive it before GW decided to pick it up again.

But we'll see.

I dunno about that. I feel that Titanicus brought a lot of folks to playing in scales smaller than 32mm. Legions Imperialis will probably do the same. It’ll make folks realise smaller scales can be cool too and perhaps lure them into trying other stuff as well.

Yes, Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica Imperialis were used as well by Epic players even though the scale "wasn't exactly right" with former Epic equivalent models. The online communities even make fan made rules to play the new models not having a previous profile before or took the opportunity to "update" existing army lists to be closer to the "official GW models".

That definitely didn't kill their communities nor stopped them from 3D printing their own models or buying from website selling "alternative Epic models".

Thinking LI will be end times for them or splitting them is a long-lived chimera that keeps coming back every time an old Specialist Game is being resurrected by GW. Blood Bowl had it, Necromunda had it, and these communities are still around. In the end, these people like the universes, the scale and the style in those games. Sure, it may not be "exactly the same as the old school version", but mostly GW does a good job at making new stuff that still captures the flavor of the original design. Which is why new miniatures are bought by new and old players alike.

Here with LI, even if the infantry is clearly a bigger scale in comparison to old school Epic marines, there's still stuff that old players will appreciate. Just the terrain alone and having gothic ruins back is already great for those who missed these Epic ruins from that time, and if not vehicles are always nice to take.


Funnily enough, on these communities I still follow, general thought is indeed to support GW's new game / range of miniatures so that they have new stuff they can use for their existing game systems for a longer while. Because they know fully well that it is sales that drives GW into maintaining games for a long period of time or not.

semajnollissor wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

The ones in 3rd were six pieces, IIRC: the base and 5 identical prongs:

These drop pods are from 4th edition (Epic Armageddon); drop pod models were not included in the model range of 3rd edition (Epic 40,000). This is assuming that the models pictured are the official GW models and not forumware proxies.

No, those are official, I have one from whn I was working at GW. I don't remember getting it during the E:A era, but it must be my memory.

Hope today is the day!

Johanxp wrote:
Hope today is the day!

Unlikely; 40k space marines are on a two week preorder so don't expect much today.

Unless they're planning on using a two-week preorder for Epic too, then next Sunday is the earliest I'd expect any news.

Johanxp wrote:
Hope today is the day!

Can confirm, not the day. Marines have a 2 week preorder period.

Unless... the "sooner than you think" line hints at the possibility of a rolling, overlapping 2 week preorder approach.

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Unless... the "sooner than you think" line hints at the possibility of a rolling, overlapping 2 week preorder approach.

Would still expect the HH boxset that was already called "sooner than we think" a month ago first then

sooner than we think, depends actually what GW thinks we thought it would be

as if GW thought that we thought it will be 2024, December 23 is "sooner"

MarkNorfolk wrote:
Unless... the "sooner than you think" line hints at the possibility of a rolling, overlapping 2 week preorder approach.

I mean, it hints (by design) at whatever you want it to believe it hints. That's the magic of nebulous statements.

Can't miss a deadline if you don't have one (a public one, at least).

 kodos wrote:
Blood Bowl was slightly different as they did not really got new rules, just the existing rules with new models/sets
and locally, BlitzBowl has done more the get new players to BB than new BB boxes

a new stream of players for Necromunda is not really there
it got the old guys playing again who were happy to finish their collection with plastic models instead of hunting down the metal on ebay
but not many new ones and most not really finish a single campaign but left early on

local scene are always different of course outside the main games (AoS and 40k) but that is the point, just because there is a new box does not essentially mean new players
specially if the only real source for gaming material is 3D printing as otherwise it is too expensive

if LI ends up with "need to 3D print" the stream of new players is the same as it was before

Most of the Necromunda players at my very high membership gaming club (and it offshoot club) had either not played the old Necromunda, or had long since stopped. There have been regular campaigns pretty much continuously since N17 dropped, with new players joining all the time. And almost no-one completed collections with new minis. There is almost zero crossover of new minis to the old game or old minis to the new game. Only a very, very small number of us have even played the old game since the new one arrived, and I think I've only done so once. Twice at most.

Blood Bowl getting picked up again by GW brought almost 100% of the old players back into the fold, and added a bunch of new ones at my club.

I'm not 100% sure that Legions Imperialis will be the success I hope it is, but your argument doesn't ring true based on my experiences.

So.... they don't talk about it in the text, but the cover is pretty clear:

 Dryaktylus wrote:
So.... they don't talk about it in the text, but the cover is pretty clear:

Spoiler:

Well...

Warhammer Community wrote:The Warhammer 40,000 Tale of Four Warlords continues alongside Crusade rules for the Tome Keepers, while Warcry gets a dose of Courage and Cruelty with quests and artefacts for the Vulkyn Fyreslayers and Kruleboyz Monsta-killaz, and you can whet your appetite for the upcoming Legions Imperialis in an early battle report.

Unfortunately, with GW now appearing to be on a 2 week pre-order schedule (Space Marine pre-orders are 2 week window, todays age of sigmar previews also indicated 2 week window), it looks like we are unlikely to have LI released before October 28th (unless they dip back to a 1 week schedule starting October 14th, in which case its October 21st).

"Early battle report" also makes it sound like we might not get the game before November possibly.