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tneva82 wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
So the points values confirm what we knew about the scale of the game in terms of what tournament organisers will do with it.

Apart from not many units available making big armies impractical atm what it shows?

Hard to get 2k without infantry spam let alone 3k.

Now not the time for big tournaments if you want players. Not many have even 2k armies yet...

agreed here, if they set this at 3k, with a ban on 3d printed models it would be a ghost town, no one locally can play it at that size without some alternative models except for one guy who had a lot of AI and adds a warlord, that invariably dies on the first turn

1500 points game size doesn't surprise me. It was obvious from the first few batrep videos out there that this would kind of be a sweet spot for many games IMHO

Besides, 3000 points on that table size starts looking way too much like a typical 40K "parking lot" game

I think 3k needs some coordination between players to avoid it looking daft, e.g. unless you are bringing a large titan or a couple of smaller ones scale it down to avoid parking lot.

likewise have some self restraint on spamming lots of cheaper units

it may well change when we have more toys, but given at present most will be on the table turn one totally agree on parking lots

 Pacific wrote:


Yes that's it really. In my thirty years of being in the hobby I will say the Legions rulebook is possibly the worst one by GW that I have ever encountered. Aside from it being written like the legal text included with a pack of laxative tablets (although interestingly, the text has the opposite effect) my main criticism is the style of the book; the lack of any colour or artwork beyond photoshopped miniatures, it is just incredibly dull. The background bits being just pasted into blocks, the layout is appalling (big empty half pages - perhaps where the artwork should have gone!) I *love* Epic, and have done so since I was 12 years old, GW have one of the most evocative settings here with literally tons of artwork available, and I had to force my way through it in chunks, in between cups of strong coffee. It does absolutely nothing to fire the imagination or make me want me to play the game, and so in my mind that is such a wasted opportunity.

I could have written that myself. The worst I've seen in decades. But what is sad is the wasted chance to bring back one of the best games ever (Epic in general).

 tauist wrote:
1500 points game size doesn't surprise me. It was obvious from the first few batrep videos out there that this would kind of be a sweet spot for many games IMHO

Besides, 3000 points on that table size starts looking way too much like a typical 40K "parking lot" game

Not really. It might seem sweet spot now because people are learning but the game is pretty damn fast and we have got just the cheap stuff now.

Add in land raiders, spartans etc that will be costing like 300 for 4 etc and boards will look very sparse.

This is epic. You are supposed to have more models than in 40k.

And beside doesn't really matter in model placement. Tanks will be touching each other whether you play 500 pts game or 50000 pts game.

tneva82 wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
So the points values confirm what we knew about the scale of the game in terms of what tournament organisers will do with it.

Apart from not many units available making big armies impractical atm what it shows?

Hard to get 2k without infantry spam let alone 3k.

Now not the time for big tournaments if you want players. Not many have even 2k armies yet...

Quite the opposite.

Infantry is cheap. I’ve all but maxed out a Demi-Company’s infantry options (I can include two more stands of Terminators and Assault Marines), and without their Rhino transports, that comes to 546 points.

There are still slots open to me (Bastion, Air Support/Light Armour, Vanguard, then Artillery/Battle Tank/Heavy Armour). But as for footsloggers? Just those four stands.

That’s the result of 3 boxes worth of Infantry, with two Contemptors left over.

To bulk up your points? It’s tanks you want. Equivalent of four boxes (1 x Predator, 1 x Sicaran, 2 x Kratos) form my Armoured Company, and that’s a hefty 905 points.

tneva82 wrote:

 tauist wrote:
1500 points game size doesn't surprise me. It was obvious from the first few batrep videos out there that this would kind of be a sweet spot for many games IMHO

Besides, 3000 points on that table size starts looking way too much like a typical 40K "parking lot" game

Not really. It might seem sweet spot now because people are learning but the game is pretty damn fast and we have got just the cheap stuff now.

Add in land raiders, spartans etc that will be costing like 300 for 4 etc and boards will look very sparse.

This is epic. You are supposed to have more models than in 40k.

And beside doesn't really matter in model placement. Tanks will be touching each other whether you play 500 pts game or 50000 pts game.

When I think of an appropriate size for a 40K game, I'm thinking 2nd ed sizes, ie. modern combat patrols worth plus a unit or two on top. For me, casual games of Epic can easily be sized to LI games of 1500pts. But then again, I am a filthy skirmish game fan so YMMV. I just prefer it visually when a tabletop has more space without models on it than with. If the games had sensible movement ranges, it'd even make manouvering mean something again.

TL;DR - I prefer skirmish level games in 28mm, and platoon/demicompany level games in Epic scales

 Pacific wrote:
So the points values confirm what we knew about the scale of the game in terms of what tournament organisers will do with it.

SamusDrake wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
...and then you would have another copy of that God-awful rulebook which you will probably end up paying to have someone take off your hands!

I'm morbidly curious - what's your problem with the rulebook?

Between long-winded explainations and points values that are way out, it gives the impression that it was released before it was ready to be signed off.

I wouldn't say it was god-awful though, and wouldn't say no to an unwanted copy going for something like £25. Unlike GW's other shameless money-milking exercises, its nice to have a game that only requires one book to get up and running.

Yes that's it really. In my thirty years of being in the hobby I will say the Legions rulebook is possibly the worst one by GW that I have ever encountered. Aside from it being written like the legal text included with a pack of laxative tablets (although interestingly, the text has the opposite effect) my main criticism is the style of the book; the lack of any colour or artwork beyond photoshopped miniatures, it is just incredibly dull. The background bits being just pasted into blocks, the layout is appalling (big empty half pages - perhaps where the artwork should have gone!) I *love* Epic, and have done so since I was 12 years old, GW have one of the most evocative settings here with literally tons of artwork available, and I had to force my way through it in chunks, in between cups of strong coffee. It does absolutely nothing to fire the imagination or make me want me to play the game, and so in my mind that is such a wasted opportunity.

What I also miss is more and deeper Lore and Fluff than a short Summary of the great Crusade, the Emperor, the Primarchs and the Heresy. Doesn't feel like a Standalone Game. Then the short Summaries of the Space Marine Legions but nothing for the Solar Auxiliar.

The Book also has many layout flaws.

Army composition wise I think I will be wanting more Infantry in the future, but probably not a second Demi-Company.

Garrison Force could be fun, as that looks to be fairly flexible, bridging between the current rough specialisation of my existing Detachments.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Quite the opposite.

Infantry is cheap. I’ve all but maxed out a Demi-Company’s infantry options (I can include two more stands of Terminators and Assault Marines), and without their Rhino transports, that comes to 546 points.

There are still slots open to me (Bastion, Air Support/Light Armour, Vanguard, then Artillery/Battle Tank/Heavy Armour). But as for footsloggers? Just those four stands.

That’s the result of 3 boxes worth of Infantry, with two Contemptors left over.

To bulk up your points? It’s tanks you want. Equivalent of four boxes (1 x Predator, 1 x Sicaran, 2 x Kratos) form my Armoured Company, and that’s a hefty 905 points.

Ummm...You kind of prove my point?

We don't HAVE much of tanks available. Kratos yes. Baneblade(which you can't even use without russ/malcador's that aren't available).

To get 2k with what we have available RIGHT NOW you either need to buy starter sets a LOT or you need to buy crapload of infantry to get 2000.

Want to bulk to 2000 with russ, predators or sicarans?

Can't do it. We are still waiting for those boxes in case you haven't noticed.

Not everybody has multiple boxes of starter sets or even want to buy seeing you don't really save cash if you can't unload warhounds and rulebook away.

ATM what you can buy is infantry, SA infantry, kratos, some titans. No russ, no predator, no sicaran, no malcador. Can't even field companies of just baneblades.

So basically 2k or 3k would be mainly infantry. And that's...A lot. We are talking easily 150+ infantry stand for 2k. My list is 172 stands and isn't even maximum spam. Can go for more. 3k? Even MORE.

We have no bastions available. No vanquard for marines. No drop pods. No spartans. No land raiders.

Once those come available it's easy to bulk up points with non-infantry. But now is not that day. And that has to factor in with tournament rules. Now tournament organizers would be insane to do 3k tournament because without buying multiple starter sets there's 2 options for that: infantry spam, kratos spam.

edit: 3rd option. MSU SA infantry with aircraft spam.

I also don't want (or need) a 4th Rulebook....

Screw The Great Slaughter; Just gve us the seperate Sets for the options from the Core Set...

Really hoping the great slaughter is itself not the victim of slaughter. Just imagining the exact impact points being crates loaded with books

She is going from Varna to China, so not relevant to this thread in any way.

Also we’re currently betting that the ship with the books diverted south, around the Cape, specifically to avoid all that.

Further, there’s exactly zero guarantee that the books would be on a British flagged vessel, especially since they’re more expensive to operate.

RazorEdge wrote:
What I also miss is more and deeper Lore and Fluff than a short Summary of the great Crusade, the Emperor, the Primarchs and the Heresy. Doesn't feel like a Standalone Game. Then the short Summaries of the Space Marine Legions but nothing for the Solar Auxiliar.

The Book also has many layout flaws.

Do we really need that though? Is there anybody playing LI that doesn't already have 20 different versions of the Deep Lore of the Horus Heresy and all the Emperor's Legions? I was just as happy that they didn't spend half the book on it.

I agree on the layout flaws though. The ebook layout on Android and Windows is completely borked.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Also we’re currently betting that the ship with the books diverted south, around the Cape, specifically to avoid all that.

Further, there’s exactly zero guarantee that the books would be on a British flagged vessel, especially since they’re more expensive to operate.

Ya as far as I know what's what is happening to about 2/3 of the ships that usually going through suez and not around africa. But the rumour is still march 2nd, haven't heard any changes to the rumour.



Was there not mention in one of the warcom articles that forge world would be making bases for flyers? I've been trying to find it but haven't had any luck, wondering if it was something from twitter way back.

Yah, discussion of a ship sailing from Bulgaria to China does indeed have zero relevance to any delays to LI.

In other news I've sent GW an email regarding the lack of Knights as a primary force in the core book, and proposed a rough outline of a special pdf formation for publishing on WarCom.

Not expecting much but they did respond to a similar request for AT, when they allowed the Senechal's banner to take Acastus Knights in a later FAQ. If they meet me half-way again then I'll give Legions another thought.

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Quite the opposite.

Infantry is cheap. I’ve all but maxed out a Demi-Company’s infantry options (I can include two more stands of Terminators and Assault Marines), and without their Rhino transports, that comes to 546 points.

There are still slots open to me (Bastion, Air Support/Light Armour, Vanguard, then Artillery/Battle Tank/Heavy Armour). But as for footsloggers? Just those four stands.

That’s the result of 3 boxes worth of Infantry, with two Contemptors left over.

To bulk up your points? It’s tanks you want. Equivalent of four boxes (1 x Predator, 1 x Sicaran, 2 x Kratos) form my Armoured Company, and that’s a hefty 905 points.

Ummm...You kind of prove my point?

We don't HAVE much of tanks available. Kratos yes. Baneblade(which you can't even use without russ/malcador's that aren't available).

To get 2k with what we have available RIGHT NOW you either need to buy starter sets a LOT or you need to buy crapload of infantry to get 2000.

Want to bulk to 2000 with russ, predators or sicarans?

Can't do it. We are still waiting for those boxes in case you haven't noticed.

Not everybody has multiple boxes of starter sets or even want to buy seeing you don't really save cash if you can't unload warhounds and rulebook away.

ATM what you can buy is infantry, SA infantry, kratos, some titans. No russ, no predator, no sicaran, no malcador. Can't even field companies of just baneblades.

So basically 2k or 3k would be mainly infantry. And that's...A lot. We are talking easily 150+ infantry stand for 2k. My list is 172 stands and isn't even maximum spam. Can go for more. 3k? Even MORE.

We have no bastions available. No vanquard for marines. No drop pods. No spartans. No land raiders.

Once those come available it's easy to bulk up points with non-infantry. But now is not that day. And that has to factor in with tournament rules. Now tournament organizers would be insane to do 3k tournament because without buying multiple starter sets there's 2 options for that: infantry spam, kratos spam.

edit: 3rd option. MSU SA infantry with aircraft spam.

Oh I can field all the Russ, Malcador, Predator, Sicaran, & Kratos I like. It'll just cost me more $$$ via eBay or such....
Same for aircraft, knights, & some titans.
If I want to field enough of those things right now they're just a few clicks away.

I would expect that when (if I wonder nowadays) we get the mechanicum faction, I expect we will see at least knight and Titan armies with a larger limit of those units without being titandeath from the expansion. You probably still won’t be able to field pure knights, but maybe.

 vadersson wrote:
I would expect that when (if I wonder nowadays) we get the mechanicum faction, I expect we will see at least knight and Titan armies with a larger limit of those units without being titandeath from the expansion. You probably still won’t be able to field pure knights, but maybe.

Pure knights in AT as their own faction was completely forced in and felt like it, really hoping we don't see that for LI. If it's more akin to mechanicum as a force with new units like the ones from 30k and all manner of tanks and infantry and combined arms fun, great, pure knights would be no fun, really hoping that's not an option in the great slaughter, no offense samus, I'm with you on wanting more mechanicum stuff to go with said knights, but knights as their own faction in 30/40k, incredibly unpleasant to play against IMO, would hope that doesn't come to LI any time soon.

They could introduce Knight Household Men-at-Arms Detachments and Units for Knight Armies.

Given the nature of this game, I would hope that a "normal" list that incorporated titans or knights as faction troops would be built around the idea of adding a number of support troops that work in conjunction with the giant war machines. Instead of taking a maniple of two warhounds, two reavers, and a warlord as your formation, you'd pick a titan or knight detachment as your core, and select escort infantry and vehicles to work alongside it.

But the escort troops wouldn't be Astartes or Solar Auxilia. So we'll likely be waiting a while.

For Knights Household Armies they could bring:

- Men-at-Arms Knights Household Infantry
- Men-at-Arms Transporter (doen't need to be the Dracosan, but a light APC-like Tracked Vehicle)
- Men-at-Arms "Demi-Knight" Light Scout Walker
- Men-at-Arms "Demi-Knight" Heavy Support Walker

For the Collecia Titanica, there is this "Mechanicum Escort Infantry" (forgot the Name).

 Crablezworth wrote:

 vadersson wrote:
I would expect that when (if I wonder nowadays) we get the mechanicum faction, I expect we will see at least knight and Titan armies with a larger limit of those units without being titandeath from the expansion. You probably still won’t be able to field pure knights, but maybe.

Pure knights in AT as their own faction was completely forced in and felt like it, really hoping we don't see that for LI. If it's more akin to mechanicum as a force with new units like the ones from 30k and all manner of tanks and infantry and combined arms fun, great, pure knights would be no fun, really hoping that's not an option in the great slaughter, no offense samus, I'm with you on wanting more mechanicum stuff to go with said knights, but knights as their own faction in 30/40k, incredibly unpleasant to play against IMO, would hope that doesn't come to LI any time soon.

Other versions of Epic have pure Knight forces. Totally normal and fun. What's the problem?

There was a rumor on Reddit which got deleted; saying that on Sunday, they announce;

- Book
- Some (not all) Missing Units from the Rulebook
- Spartans
- Droppods
- Plastic Arvus
- Vanguard Bike/Speeder Detachments

and that not all Units, with rules in the Expansion get released soon...

RazorEdge wrote:
There was a rumor on Reddit which got deleted; saying that on Sunday, they announce;

- Book
- Some (not all) Missing Units from the Rulebook

Since it wouldn't make sense to split up the two support boxes thats either the planes or the Knights/Titans that aren't coming yet. The Titans would make sense to come with the book so I'll say we will be missing the rest of the aeronautica planes

RazorEdge wrote:

- Spartans
- Droppods
- Plastic Arvus
- Vanguard Bike/Speeder Detachments

and that not all Units, with rules in the Expansion get released soon...

Surprising to already see the Arvus here and the fact we get the normal drop pods but not the dreadnought versions makes me think we are getting another preorder not too late after this one. So probably next Saturday with these, a month or so after with a few more like Dreadnought drop pods and maybe Dracosans and SA Artillery and then another one multiple months later with the rest of the stuff in the book.

 Crablezworth wrote:


Pure knights in AT as their own faction was completely forced in and felt like it, really hoping we don't see that for LI. If it's more akin to mechanicum as a force with new units like the ones from 30k and all manner of tanks and infantry and combined arms fun, great, pure knights would be no fun, really hoping that's not an option in the great slaughter, no offense samus, I'm with you on wanting more mechanicum stuff to go with said knights, but knights as their own faction in 30/40k, incredibly unpleasant to play against IMO, would hope that doesn't come to LI any time soon.

Your opinion is respected, being a fellow gentleman and wargamer.

I can accept moving on from the failed experiment that is Adeptus Titanicus, for the reasons we've already discussed in length over the last few years. But if the 28mm Horus Heresy game allows for an all-knight army, then I will not accept any less from the Epic-scale offering, as it's a system far better suited to running Knight armies. Even in Horus Heresy they managed to get it right with at least two Armigers for every Knight taken.

GW didn't need much to win me over as a customer for Legions Imperialis; a copy of the rule book and a box of plastic Armigers. One friggin kit to tap into an existing player base...

Its also silly that in a 40K range that includes Paragon Warsuits and Attilan Rough Riders, that the "Space Bretonnians" codex still includes only three varieties of giant, stompy robots. Again, one friggin kit would make all the difference, but no, its far more important to release a box of Marines armed with T-Shirt launchers...

Not bitter though as Horizon Wars continues to pick up the Epic ball that GW dropped, but I do look forward to the day that GW knocks it out of the park.

RazorEdge wrote:
There was a rumor on Reddit which got deleted; saying that on Sunday, they announce;

- Book
- Some (not all) Missing Units from the Rulebook
- Spartans
- Droppods
- Plastic Arvus
- Vanguard Bike/Speeder Detachments

and that not all Units, with rules in the Expansion get released soon...

think the base land raider is more likely than the spartan, largely because its already been announced, as has the rest (and more).

not saying not possible, just expecting the base stuff they have announced before new toys


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also not seeing a huge issue with allowing a pure knight household, can ally in "supporting troops"

I don't think it would be terribly effective, but don't see a reason to prohibit it

The Spartan was announced as well, with actual laser destroyer sponsons