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Well that escalated quickly....

This thread is really interesting and made me think about a lot of my own biases. Thank especially to Makeitorky for giving your insight.

I entered the Hobby with GW with third edition of Warhammer Battle at the time, and when I see the evolution of their miniature's design and painting, way to write the rules and advertise their games, I can't deny they are indeed targeted at a very specific demographic - let's be honest, white young / middle men. There is an evolution for sure : in recent years, there are more inclusive characters than before in their stories or miniatures, they vary more skin color in their painting schemes and they present more mixed people in their units and such.

I think it is also linked to the own background of the makers / writers at that time : they were white men, after all. Their own biases do play a part in how they marketed at that time. They tend to include a bit more diversity in their ranks in recent years, but it's difficult to deny most are still white men.

The most important is to recognize where there is a problem, that's how you can remedy it. I think that saying something like "it doesn't matter / there is no problem for me" is part of the problem itself : you can't aknowledge or hear someone's else own experience if you close the door first on it. And these people would have no reason to open it afterwards if you react that way, that's already a sign they're not welcome indeed.

IMHO, diversity is good because it brings more points of view, and thus more chances to experience something new. If you keep being with the same comforting points of view as yours, you'll end up missing these new opportunities. It's not especially a bad thing for some people for sure and I do see why they can be very protective about it to the point of being hostile to others...but it may tend to have smaller communities as a result that slowly die because of their lack of "new blood" - because they weren't open enough to other points of view.

There's definitely matter to think about, even if it's "just a game". Thanks for that.

I'm not someone who naturally goes towards others, especially as a child. I was already considered a weird boy because I was about in these "child games" as fantasy miniature wargames were seen upon. This helped build myself over the time and also socialize with people who shared the same passions as me, but when I think about it, I do remember we also were mainly white men playing with each other. We had a few girls who never stayed long, and our own awkward behavior may have played a role in it. We had a couple men "of color" as well, but not many. And our armies with humans and such were mainly painted with fair skins as well, I'll admit it. We were not showing iron crosses and gothic fonts, though. But we definitely had our own biases in our local community, even as we grew up (and eventually went our different ways). And I do admit that our behaviour and way to act with certain people may have been not that welcoming to them, in retrospect.

I honestly don't have a miracle solution to solve it here, other than being aware of it, listen and try to be more inclusive in the future.

Maybe I missed this somewhere along the chain, but is anyone here a minority? or if not did anyone ask a minority member they know if they'd join them at the hobby shop?

I think it starts there. Desire and invitation.

 Adeptekon wrote:
did anyone ask a minority member they know if they'd join them at the hobby shop?

If I can speak of myself not being part of a minority, when I was young, it just didn't come to my thoughts. Nowadays, I tend to play with friends only and I'm not actively looking for a new community, so I can't say I'm really inclined to do it as well...even if I believe it's more linked to the fact I'm simply not actively looking for having new friends, I'm "comforted" with the ones I already have.

I know my small group will die with us. What happens next, I don't know.

Sarouan wrote:

I know my small group will die with us. What happens next, I don't know.

I can relate to that.

Sarouan wrote:
This thread is really interesting and made me think about a lot of my own biases. Thank especially to Makeitorky for giving your insight.

I entered the Hobby with GW with third edition of Warhammer Battle at the time, and when I see the evolution of their miniature's design and painting, way to write the rules and advertise their games, I can't deny they are indeed targeted at a very specific demographic - let's be honest, white young / middle men. There is an evolution for sure : in recent years, there are more inclusive characters than before in their stories or miniatures, they vary more skin color in their painting schemes and they present more mixed people in their units and such.

I think it is also linked to the own background of the makers / writers at that time : they were white men, after all. Their own biases do play a part in how they marketed at that time. They tend to include a bit more diversity in their ranks in recent years, but it's difficult to deny most are still white men.

The most important is to recognize where there is a problem, that's how you can remedy it. I think that saying something like "it doesn't matter / there is no problem for me" is part of the problem itself : you can't aknowledge or hear someone's else own experience if you close the door first on it. And these people would have no reason to open it afterwards if you react that way, that's already a sign they're not welcome indeed.

IMHO, diversity is good because it brings more points of view, and thus more chances to experience something new. If you keep being with the same comforting points of view as yours, you'll end up missing these new opportunities. It's not especially a bad thing for some people for sure and I do see why they can be very protective about it to the point of being hostile to others...but it may tend to have smaller communities as a result that slowly die because of their lack of "new blood" - because they weren't open enough to other points of view.

There's definitely matter to think about, even if it's "just a game". Thanks for that.

I'm not someone who naturally goes towards others, especially as a child. I was already considered a weird boy because I was about in these "child games" as fantasy miniature wargames were seen upon. This helped build myself over the time and also socialize with people who shared the same passions as me, but when I think about it, I do remember we also were mainly white men playing with each other. We had a few girls who never stayed long, and our own awkward behavior may have played a role in it. We had a couple men "of color" as well, but not many. And our armies with humans and such were mainly painted with fair skins as well, I'll admit it. We were not showing iron crosses and gothic fonts, though. But we definitely had our own biases in our local community, even as we grew up (and eventually went our different ways). And I do admit that our behaviour and way to act with certain people may have been not that welcoming to them, in retrospect.

I honestly don't have a miracle solution to solve it here, other than being aware of it, listen and try to be more inclusive in the future.

This entire post is incredible. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences on this. I feel that for me its less about wanting to say "Look we have lots of minorities" and is instead me wanting to share this hobby with as many people from all different walks of life. This hobby means alot to me and I want everyone to feel like they can be part of it. I also think its alot more fun and interesting to game with people who are different then you. This opens up your horizons and adds richness to the hobby.

I was already considered a weird boy because I was about in these "child games" as fantasy miniature wargames were seen upon.

Yes the stigma. It's still there even when you're older with some people, but I think gaming in general whether they be table top, or video games have become a lot more mainstream than they once were.

 Adeptekon wrote:

I was already considered a weird boy because I was about in these "child games" as fantasy miniature wargames were seen upon.

Yes the stigma. It's still there even when you're older with some people, but I think gaming in general whether they be table top, or video games have become a lot more mainstream than they once were.

Especially video games, most everyone plays them now regardless of race, gender, sexuality etc. Super diverse community where everyone feels accepting. This is what im hoping 40k becomes.

 Adeptekon wrote:
Maybe I missed this somewhere along the chain, but is anyone here a minority? or if not did anyone ask a minority member they know if they'd join them at the hobby shop?

I think it starts there. Desire and invitation.

Depending on who is looking at me, I am. My first group I got into the hobby with was like 4 European descended dudes and 4 Asian/Mexican/mixed. My current group I am the darkest. My first group was the "toxic" one (a game store owner said if we didn't tell him we were all friends, he would of thought we hated each other), my current group is extremely nice and friendly. While I do prefer my current group mostly (we finish games and in a timely manner, we all have game spaces in our home with terrain, we can resolve rules deputes fairly quickly) I have to say I had the most fun with those other drunk fools.

 Adeptekon wrote:
Maybe I missed this somewhere along the chain, but is anyone here a minority? or if not did anyone ask a minority member they know if they'd join them at the hobby shop?

I think it starts there. Desire and invitation.

I would be considered a minority in Canada given that I'm ethnically Chinese, and how I got introduced to Warhammer was my highschool friend (and we're still friends to this day) since we initially got to know each other talking about Warcraft 3 in class and then I slowly got introduced to the game through some demo games at his place and then we had some outings to the GW Battle Bunker back when those still existed. I think the key part is that it had nothing to do with me being a guy, Asian or whatever, but rather that we had a friendship built first before I was thrust into the tabletop scene. This is fundamentally a social game, even if you're more in for the painting or modelling side of the hobby, which is why I think the whole diversity angle doesn't change the key focus which is that you need the right personalities and social network first before you can get that invested into getting into or staying within the hobby, and boiling it down to the most superficial aspects as the main draw seems very short-sighted.

 Adeptekon wrote:
Maybe I missed this somewhere along the chain, but is anyone here a minority? or if not did anyone ask a minority member they know if they'd join them at the hobby shop?

I think it starts there. Desire and invitation.

As a branch off from this question, I think I recall reading that Veterans were considered a minority group but the internet will have all kinds of stuff to say about that. Looking now I did see it mentioned in a article but more I see that veterans re part of a DEI group. So I can't say for sure.

However, if Veterans are considers a minority group then, Yes. And also yes regarding asking other veterans to come try a game and the hobby.
If not then also yes because I have friends who, while veterans or active duty, also check other demographic boxes. One guy was a total power gamer at blood bowl too,
his Orcs would just wreck the other players team to bits. Which was why he picked Orcs I guess.
Good times.

The term minority seems like it's painting with a larger brush than one may expect.

I'm not by nature a collectivist. Being in one group or another may not mean that everyone in that group is the same or even sees the world in the same way. Uncle Ruckus, no relation, for example.

 Adeptekon wrote:
Maybe I missed this somewhere along the chain, but is anyone here a minority? or if not did anyone ask a minority member they know if they'd join them at the hobby shop?

I think it starts there. Desire and invitation.

My girlfriend is Filipino, and two of my friends that play are Hispanic. They got me into Warhammer, rather than the other way around. One Hispanic friend joins us at the local game store, the other moved somewhere else, and my girlfriend never really gets the opportunity. The game store is, however, run by a Hispanic man. I do have an Asian friend who would probably like Warhammer, but he joined the Marines, so it's a bit harder to know for sure.

 Adeptekon wrote:
Maybe I missed this somewhere along the chain, but is anyone here a minority? or if not did anyone ask a minority member they know if they'd join them at the hobby shop?

I think it starts there. Desire and invitation.

I am part of the lgbtq+ community (Bisexual) I have invited a Trans Man to play with us, my cousin who is female and some others

 ForgedSteel wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:

I was already considered a weird boy because I was about in these "child games" as fantasy miniature wargames were seen upon.

Yes the stigma. It's still there even when you're older with some people, but I think gaming in general whether they be table top, or video games have become a lot more mainstream than they once were.

Especially video games, most everyone plays them now regardless of race, gender, sexuality etc. Super diverse community where everyone feels accepting. This is what im hoping 40k becomes.

It already is though, or how isn't it?

 warhead01 wrote:
As a branch off from this question, I think I recall reading that Veterans were considered a minority group but the internet will have all kinds of stuff to say about that. Looking now I did see it mentioned in a article but more I see that veterans re part of a DEI group. So I can't say for sure.

However, if Veterans are considers a minority group then, Yes. And also yes regarding asking other veterans to come try a game and the hobby.
If not then also yes because I have friends who, while veterans or active duty, also check other demographic boxes. One guy was a total power gamer at blood bowl too,
his Orcs would just wreck the other players team to bits. Which was why he picked Orcs I guess.
Good times.

Yeah, minority is a tough term, and this is where a lot of overlapping issues comes up. Basically, under a lot of laws, Veteran status is a "protected class," which essentially means that it's illegal to discriminate solely against a person because of their status. Meaning, for example, that a company that refused to hire veterans could be sued, in the same way any race or religious based prohibition.

DEI, at it's broadest, really does try to get people and institutions to look beyond their comfort zone and the populations they generally work with. This can include things like race, religion, and gender, but DEI also encourages organizations to take a second look at people with disabilities, or veterans, or even people from working class backgrounds to strengthen the group.

I think that in warhammer, and wargaming in general, veterans are healthily represented.

The term minority seems like it's painting with a larger brush than one may expect.

I'm not by nature a collectivist. Being in one group or another may not mean that everyone in that group is the same or even sees the world in the same way. Uncle Ruckus, no relation, for example.

yeah, there's always a tension between understanding that all people have their own experiences, but at 30,000 feet different groups tend to have different shared experiences. One example that I found fascinating was simple: summer camp. For many immigrants and working class people, summer camp is an unknown, while many middle class kids, and a huge number of upper middle class kids go to summer camp. Obviously there are rural first generation immigrants who do go to summer camp, and well off kids from Long Island who don't, but there's a big gap.

Maybe women will never play warhammer in significant numbers, or maybe GW and/or the community will find a way to make it appealing to them. It's a little weird that women make up a greater percentage of actual soldiers than people that play with toy soldiers, right? (Maybe it's about a weird Freudian regression?)

You also never know what will cross over from one population to another. If you asked the average white guy in 1978 "do you like super campy disco music?" they'd probably deny it. Yet YMCA becomes a huge hit that year. Electronic dance music went from being the province of queer or POC to a broadly loved genre.

 Adeptekon wrote:
Maybe I missed this somewhere along the chain, but is anyone here a minority? or if not did anyone ask a minority member they know if they'd join them at the hobby shop?

I think it starts there. Desire and invitation.

Rural - catholic, by law we were discriminated (until 2002 and if your jewish , well let's just say if you don't know an peasant of an certain anti federal state sentiment you are not going to get kosher meat of a local origin) due to kulturkampf and some other things.


Flg's and community is mostly urban protestant and localised there.

And whilest not northern ireland level of nonsense, let's just say resentiments are , alive and well, nowadays mostly though it is a combination of political conflicts and differing cultures translating into ribbing and conflicts about culture and questions of organisation, education and most importantly tangents the realm of clubs and their culture.

Frankly my opinion, if i am establishing a new club/ association than i can put down democratically with my fellow members the rules. If they are exclusive so be it , if they are inclusive so be it either. That is a decision of the club.

If i want to join a club then i have to adapt not vice versa.

Normally I wouldn't bother creating an account just to leave a comment, but this thread was brought to my attention so here we go.

If one looks at internet at large, there's a lot of people with little rainbow flags and pronouns painting, gaming or just talking about lore. To the point where one of the most common jokes among trans people is "I don't play D&D, Magic or Warhammer, am I even trans?".

Obviously it doesn't mean every single queer person is or wants to be into tabletop games,but it's definitely not a case of lack of interest if queer people are not represented in local clubs or at the LGS.

Interesting discussion all around. Thanks to @forgedsteel for bring up the topic. As the discussion reveals, there's alot of factors at play.

I'm primarily a wargamer and that has limited my exposure to the gaming world as a whole. However, I seem to see more diversity over there in the RPG and boardgaming space, and I'd venture to guess that video gaming demographics look far closer to population demographics.

Something about the miniature wargaming niche seems to be lagging. I definitely agree with the issues regarding grognards, entry costs and such. I think also, alot of it is that miniature wargaming as we know it (which is only about 40 years old) is an activity started, perpetuated and largely participated in by white males. Other folks have essentially had to deliberately "step into" that space which can -for reasons others have elaborated on at length- be uncomfortable. Some have made the leap, but the general population of wargamers haven't deliberately made sustained outreach to other groups and -in a largely culturally segregated country like the USA- might not have the knowledge or connections to do so.

I don't have any solutions. I'm not evangelical about the hobby and though I spent most of my adult life primarily living and working among non-white folks, I've honestly not given much thought to drawing more folks (of any variety) into my club if they don't immediately show strong interest when they find out about my hobby. I can't even lean on the "it's expensive" argument as our club has always specialized in cheap indie skirmish games and has strived to be able to always provide miniatures for guests to play with.

I have to ask myself honestly how likely is someone to get involved in a hobby (or any activity) they aren't already familiar with if they aren't invited to do so by someone enthusiastic about that activity? I haven't been putting in the work, so no surprise then that my long-term gaming group is comprised of white males whose history of gaming largely precedes meeting me.

Maybe it's time for more deliberate outreach?

 Eilif wrote:
Something about the miniature wargaming niche seems to be lagging. I definitely agree with the issues regarding grognards, entry costs and such. I think also, alot of it is that miniature wargaming as we know it (which is only about 40 years old) is an activity started, perpetuated and largely participated in by white males. Other folks have essentially had to deliberately "step into" that space which can -for reasons others have elaborated on at length- be uncomfortable. Some have made the leap, but the general population of wargamers haven't deliberately made sustained outreach to other groups and -in a largely culturally segregated country like the USA- might not have the knowledge or connections to do so.

I think this is true, but pretty much all the great nerd hobbies have their roots in the late 70s/early 80s: TTPGS, video games, and miniatures wargaming. CCGs arrived a full decade later. I do think that wargaming is smaller, simply due to the investment in time, money, and effort, so maybe that's part of the slow growth. Minis never had the major splash that D&D had, first in the 80s and now more recently.

I don't have any solutions. I'm not evangelical about the hobby and though I spent most of my adult life primarily living and working among non-white folks, I've honestly not given much thought to drawing more folks (of any variety) into my club if they don't immediately show strong interest when they find out about my hobby. I can't even lean on the "it's expensive" argument as our club has always specialized in cheap indie skirmish games and has strived to be able to always provide miniatures for guests to play with.

I have to ask myself honestly how likely is someone to get involved in a hobby (or any activity) they aren't already familiar with if they aren't invited to do so by someone enthusiastic about that activity? I haven't been putting in the work, so no surprise then that my long-term gaming group is comprised of white males whose history of gaming largely precedes meeting me.

Maybe it's time for more deliberate outreach?

I think your post is really introspective and well written. I think there's this weird misconception that DEI efforts are like communist struggle sessions. I think we all could do better hobby outreach in general, but most of us are guilty of, at worst, following the path of least resistance.

Just brainstorming, I would make the following suggestions:
1) make sure there isn't any overtly hostile stuff going on. Racist or sexist language, inappropriate staring or "flirting," that kind of stuff. When I walked into a gaming store and saw a guy wearing a "I call it the China virus because it came from China" t-shirt, I did not get the vibe he was welcoming. And when the group there became really diverse, he stopped coming... weird little coincidence, that.

2) do your best to make the place physically welcoming. I think that guys will go into a dank basement to play hams, but women might not be as wild about that. good lighting, clean bathrooms, chairs that don't wobble, I think places that have that are more likely to have women gamers.

3) Have a pitch for your game ready for all passersby. Whether it's a 12 year old black girl or another white dad, give a little pitch about the game, and why you like it. If they seem interested, encourage them to watch.


We're in a golden age of hobby gaming, and even if you're into GW products, you can legitimately sell people on Kill team or Warcry for a $50 buy in. Demos, open gaming nights, paint days, these are all ways to bring people that are into gaming to at least try to engage with minis.

On the time and money front Larping appears to be making big strides and gains. Costumes and travel and actual time Larping are likely very comparable to wargaming, if perhaps sometimes swapping out full Larp for RPG gaming during the week.

So I'd argue its more that wargaming is lagging for some reasons. They are likely also not major reasons, just perhaps a handful of small issues that combine together to create a soft barrier that's just enough that its lagged behind some others.

It might also just be that its got the comparable spread, its just not happening at local stores and is online/at home.

 ForgedSteel wrote:

Especially video games, most everyone plays them now regardless of race, gender, sexuality etc. Super diverse community where everyone feels accepting. This is what im hoping 40k becomes.

Videogames are a fascinating case study in general. At their start they were fairly inclusive in nature. Male leaning, but as something predominately in social settings like roller rinks and bars, the first big boom was a lot more gender neutral than what came after the crash. Post crash, you can see the kind of self selecting logic that creates exclusive communities. The home market bent a bit more towards the male focused engineering crowd, which lead to the Nintendo being sold as a toy for boys, which created a market that increasingly rewarded male focused fantasy. The more that fantasy succeeded, the more other demographics avoided getting into the hobby, the more that fantasy succeeded, each generation until by the Xbox 360 era you got Gears of War.

But I didn't reply to a comment about how videogames are a male dominated hobby, so.... what changed? There's no silver bullet, but the answer comes down to the success of competing markets. Cell phone and indie games are probably the big one. An absolutely enormous market full of initially simpler, more gender neutral games that attracted a huge new demographic by being first and foremost accessible. The rise of MMOs can't be discounted either, which really took the burgeoning trend of character customization to a place where it was essentially mandatory and made gaming as much of a social activity as it has ever really been in a very welcoming cooperative environment. Much like the scenario that homogenized the industry, the success of games that appealed to a broad demographic fueled demand for design and features with much broader appeal than the space marine era of videogames.

I think the same is true of tabletop. Right now, the games that are cracking mainstream appeal are the ones where people feel represented. Similar to MMOs that sought to emulate it, DnD's player creation is a big draw, particularly as the marketing (both official and fan made) continues to show off diverse party configurations that give different people a chance to see how they can fit into the adventure. I don't think its that simple but I definitely feel that 40k's current public face doesn't do a lot to draw in anything outside its target demographic.

 Easy E wrote:
I did not read the thread, as I knew it would make my blood boil.....

You should ask yourself why. Moral and social dilemmas require debate.

 Easy E wrote:

The bottom line to me is, if you want more diversity in your game group; you need to not just be open, or outright welcoming to these groups. You need to go out and target these folks for recruitment.

Does this mean you would implement 'affirmative action' at GW recruiting?
The problem with this is that if you earmark positions for restricted demographics you discriminate against persons of other demographics who would apply for employment.
Personally I think that is wrong and am against discrimination of any kind.
However it is a commonly enough solution to enforce diversity in companies and even government.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Diversity is not important and should not be strived for. Quality and enjoyment should be the priority. If diversity happens naturally then so be it, if it doesnt then so be it.

This is I agree with. When diversity is enforced opportunity becomes lob sided.
GW is not a bigoted company, there were exceptions, but those were individual. When these individuals appear GW deals with them appropriately.

I knew of a deeply bigoted manager in a store just outside of London. He had cultural issues with women, and took those issues to work. He made it very difficult for girls to enter the hobby, made them unwelcome and belittled their ability to understand the game. He was fired.

Diversity should be natural, the watchword for true inclusivity is equality. Not every demographic is going to be interested in the same entertainment system evenly. Cultural differences are not something to be ashamed of.
If a member of demographic that is statistically unlikely to play Warhammer joins the hobby, they should be treated like everyone else. There is no 'underrepresentation', because this is not a state issue, its a hobby not a government department.
If a lower proportion of group x have access to dentists, that is a problem to be addressed.
If a lower proportion of the same demographic play Warhammer that is not an issue to anyone but them, and should not be tampered with..

GW can reasonably ask, what can we do to increase sales in minority communities. But that is as far as it goes.
As far as I can tell GW have done nothing wrong in this regard.

 Grimskul wrote:
The idea of mandated diversity being pushed in so many hobbies seems both pointless and often a goal that is never fully fleshed out, since it's just something people say and want to aim for since it's in vogue and popular to say that you want it, but often these people never actually delve into what they actually mean by diversity. ......

An excellent post.

 Polonius wrote:

Another big part is that you fundamentally can't force specific people to join the hobby, you can try to make it as open and accessible as reasonably possible, but if certain demographics just aren't into it, you can't do much about it. Just like trying to force more young boys into playing with exclusively Barbies or Baby toys versus playing CoD, Power Rangers, or Roblox, you're fighting a losing battle and you should just let people have fun with what they want rather than obsessing over how "diverse" a game's consumer base is.

Do you even remotely think that the 40k community is making it as open and accessible as possible for women and people of color? I don't think that's the case. You seem very concerned about something happening that nobody is remotely considering.

What you are missing here Polonius is that if a minority group has a low proportion of Warhammer players there may be a reason why, and that reason may be beyond the ability of hobbyists to manipulate.
Different social groups have different social priorities, and different social foci.
This applies openly to hobby and social groups far larger than Warhammer.
Big money activities like team sports have an inherent social dynamic. The demographics that like cricket are different and clearly distinct from the demographics who like football, or both. These cultural differences remain even though there is a lot of money in these sports and a lot of incentive to broaden appeal for maximum revenue.
However society has wisely decided to allow demographic dynamics in sports to remain, because they are hallmarks of cultural differences.
Instead the focus is on combating racism and ensuring that members of any demographic are not discriminated against if they choose this enjoy this sport or seek a career playing it.


Something else we need to consider.

Warhammer and related games have a peculiar social dynamic.
- It is a 'nerd' hobby and until recently this was deeply stigmatised. Being a fantasy gamer is mainstream now, it was not in the 1980's. Much actual progress against discrimination has been achieved already.

- Warhammer is an expensive hobby. This will disenfranchise poorer sections of the community. This cannot be avoided outside of instilling a full Communist society with equal resource distribution. That might cause other, larger issues.
Truth be told the UK is not a society where there is demographic poverty so that any ethnic groups are below the resource requirements to access the game. Even the relatively poor can afford Warhammer, they just afford less. People on low income or JSA (Uk equivalent of food stamps) can afford over time to collect and play Warhammer. Many do.
The social dynamics may exist elsewhere, but GW stood on its ability to create a market in the UK, and ha doner so and not been socially exclusive in doing so. This hobbyist culture thus sets the dynamic elsewhere.

- Warhammer is an involved hobby that requires a time commitment and focus prior to play. You can take a football out of a box and kick it, no focus required. You can open a chess set, spend some time learning to play, then play the game. A moderate initial focus required at entry level. Warhammer is deeply focused hobby. Before you can play Warhammer you need to involve yourself in another hobby to collect Warhammer.

It is this last dynamic that marks Warhammer as a socially lobsided game. Focus is the main barrier to entry. Warhammer will not flourish in a demographic with a high proportion of single parent families. Single parent households have less time for focus on hobbies. A culture of involved hobbies of any kind requires dads, if there are fewer fathers around there are fewer opportunities for father-child bonding, a lower intensity of focus in general and a greater tendency towards gravitation towards activities that offer instant gratification.
This cultural dynamic goes way beyond Warhammer, and cannot be fixed by Games Workshop.

There is also the opposite phenomena, there are cultural subcommunities, particularly in the US, but also in the UK where there are cultural expectations on focus for the youth on academics and self betterment. Some communities will internally stigmatise a heavy time sink hobby like Warhammer as a 'distraction' and a 'waste of time'. These cultural expectations can be significant. Some cultures with social expectations also have specific gender based expectations and will not be open to a girl playing Warhammer.
Is that discrimination, yes it is, but is the internal dynamics of ethnic subcommunities something we should be interfering with as outsiders. In this case it would only cause harm.

 Adeptekon wrote:
Maybe I missed this somewhere along the chain, but is anyone here a minority?

Yes, I would be considered a minority in the 40K hobby. My parents are immigrants, and I am not of European descent. I HAVE had situations in the past trying to start or finish 40K games, and the other person just mentally walled me off, or walked away from a game citing boredom, or something more interesting. Could be anything really...and most 40k players aren't the very sociable to begin with. Although that's fine, I was also like that in the past. Before I gained some life experience and confidence in my own abilities. The problem is if you have a lot of that going around, it doesn't give the hobby that attractive of a look. What many other tabletop games do is attract people of many different personalities, so that people can play off of one another. There is a name for that type of strategy, but i don't remember what it is. It is an important aspect of tabletop game development.

The part about dads and single parents was a good one. And I'm sure wherever one lives someone's heard the line that goes something like this: "instead of blowing your money on toys you could be helping feed the poor"

 Polonius wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:If you walk into a place and say "I don't see anybody that looks like me/X demographic here. I don't like that!" then you are the one with the problem, not the people who are there.

I would start by saying that part of the problem is the emotional labor required of minorities, and how it's perfectly reasonable that a person who spends their work or school life as a minority might not want that in their free time.

Again, if a person walks into a store and has a problem because its just a bunch of white dudes, even though these white dudes have done nothing besides exist to this person, then it is the person walking in that is the issue. Doesn't matter if that person is a minority or not, they're the racist in that situation.

You have the right to self-segregate in your free time of course, but that is your decision and your problem. It is not the responsibility of other people to change their behavior to suit your sensitivities. And you are then the one contributing to the "lack of diversity" in the hobby by refusing to participate. If you are a minority and want more minorities in the local hobby, then be the minority in the hobby. Don't hide away from the LGS because you're scared of people you don't know.

And again..kind of. Ish.

The store owner, be it FLGS or GW chain cannot force anyone to participate. But what they can do is foster an environment where nobody feels unsafe or unwelcome.

As you say, if anyone walks in anywhere, sees a demographic not their own, and walks out because they only want to go places where their own demographic is predomninant, that is their problem entirely.

But whilst I don’t think it’s intentional, you don’t seem to be considering other angles and reasons why someone might feel very uncomfortable or inherently unwelcome in such an environment.

it's almost as if it's a minority hobby that generally only appeals to a thin slice of the population, and that further sub-dividing that into even thinner slices of said populations is going to result in low turnout out, but it can't be simple maths we must all hatebots or phobotrons....

Don’t think anyone has made such a claim.

Indeed folk have been advocating pretty straight forward stuff that to be honest, any business interested in growth would do. Ensuring you’re not putting people off unnecessarily.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Indeed folk have been advocating pretty straight forward stuff that to be honest, any business interested in growth would do. Ensuring you’re not putting people off unnecessarily.

I believe the issue is that different people have different ideas of what exactly might be putting people off, and to extrapolate from individual experience/opinion to entire groups of people who happen to share similar features along one dimension, but are quite different along others.

Yeah. All we are doing is looking at many other geek hobbies which have changed over the last 20-30 years and noticed that whilst some, eg video games, have become fully mainstream to the point where its actually abnormal to have never gamed on any game if you're within certain generations; through to ones like LARPing which have seen quite considerable growth and overt diversity.

We are then wondering why Wargames appear to have lagged behind that trend.



You know thinking on it one big difference is that Wargames are led by GW in many respects. Like it or not they are the big name and do the most outreach. However I'd argue one area we could see some blame is that during the Kirby era GW did a few things that worked against growth.

1) They didn't just not use the internet, they went full hostility against the internet. Rumours, news sites they went against them and turned a lot of the net against them during that era. They didn't make use of the new explosion of social media tools (before they were even really called that); nor consumer engagement.

2) They pulled back from supporting many events and even running some of their own. Even though they still had their stores, they were not connecting with tournaments or the professional scene nor growing much outside of the concept of direct sales in the shops


Meanwhile I'd argue that many of the other sectors were 100% tapping into those resources and I think that really helped them grow not just in numbers, but diversity as well. They were doing FAR more out-reach in that regard.


I think its hard to imagine now because GW is firing on all fronts in those areas; though they lack a certain level of maturity in their approaches here and there (eg a rules system that doesn't properly cater to a competitive scene growth; an online media setup that almost seems to be going backwards with their latest change to talking hands for painting tutorials).

But I would put that as part of the issue. GW went through a phase where they were growing, but where they weren't engaging their actual community at the top end nor building structures to support their community from the top end.
I think that hobbled some of their outreach and the fact that since they changed their attitudes they've seen VAST growth, I think supports that.



It could explain why Wargames lagged behind other markets, esp when you consider that, at least for fantasy and sci-fi, a lot of other wargame groups rely on GW customers being converted to them or coming to them.

That honestly could just be all there is too it; that every other geek hobby was outreaching in new ways and connecting and using user feedback and GW, for all their efforts, weren't using those tools and thus didn't see quite the same expansion.

Now that they are using those tools perhaps in 5-10 more years diversity will have naturally grown and broadened to be comparable to others.


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 BertBert wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Indeed folk have been advocating pretty straight forward stuff that to be honest, any business interested in growth would do. Ensuring you’re not putting people off unnecessarily.

I believe the issue is that different people have different ideas of what exactly might be putting people off, and to extrapolate from individual experience/opinion to entire groups of people who happen to share similar features along one dimension, but are quite different along others.

A huge problem in this is that you often don't hear from those who get put off. Certainly here on Dakka we are very unlikely to hear from people who walked away from GW entirely before joining in. We are more likely to hear from those who were already invested on some level who then found issues later; but those who never got caught are unlikely to ever appear here to give their view. They are also unlikely to fill in company surveys or even talk about their reasons for not engaging. IT can lead to a huge gap in understanding that can be very hard to fill.


We thus have to surmise and guess and sometimes use a handful of examples of those who overcame barriers (that they saw/interpreted as barriers) which can skew results a bit.