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**RaptorusRex**

Kinfolk Helots + Warrior Elite is probably the one I'd want to take.

I actually have models for most of a 1000 pts list, using the Einherjar from WGA with vehicles and "Discipline Masters" from my Guard collection. Need a full size Recce Squad and a Force Commander w/power armor and power weapon, but those are easy buys. I was thinking a Einhyr Champion for the FC.

**lord_blackfang**

Kinfolk Helots is probably the best one by a staggeringly large margin. Honestly most traits would have still been weak without all the crippling "thematic" downsides and without the 100 point tax Character who'd lose melee to a Nurgling base.

**RaptorusRex**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Kinfolk Helots is probably the best one by a staggeringly large margin. Honestly most traits would have still been weak without all the crippling "thematic" downsides.

I think this blow could've been softened by letting you take three tbh.

**cody.d.**

Honestly I'd probably use them as support. Cheap, bullet catching objective holders, blockers or used to pin a better unit in place for a while.

Due to how HH/early 40k works cheaper units have more of a place than in current 40k due to how targeting/charge restrictions work. As an example you can't just shoot the 2PPM unit then charge the more important elites behind it. And a boltgun squad could spend a couple turns shooting and not come close to making it's points back. Combat though may work due to combat res.

Slot them in to a normal traitor force to fill gaps, physically and strategically.

**Adeptekon**

Sounds pretty clear this was geared towards "veteran collectors" and will be narrative play focused.

**cody.d.**

Could also have a lot of fun in ZM. Throw them down an alley, see if they can kill enough models to ever get through.

**SirDonlad**

Typical 2.0 frankly.

No more Squats 'counts-as' with the provenances re-do; but you can field an army of rough-riders or pretend you're tau.

I always thought the possibility of anyone having a complete army worth of squats was ultra-remote, but meme-worthy enough for someone to pull it off.
A rough-rider army doesn't even have that going for it so its inclusion seemed properly bizarre.

Of course, now after a bit of googling i find that GW released new rough-rider models last year and it all makes sense.

I liked the 'Cargo-8' concept (basically a trukk) but they should clearly have just made the 'munitorum armoured container' upgraydde make it an enclosed transport rather than messing around with armour values

**Snord**

I love how people pronounce on the effectiveness of a list within minutes of its release...

This list would be the perfect excuse to field a genuine WWI-style army, complete with wheeled artillery - the way the Guard were originally depicted. It would be fun to convert the Leman Russes so that they looked even more like WWI tanks (it's a shame they can't have sponson weapons though).

**lord_blackfang**

SirDonlad wrote:
Typical 2.0 frankly.

No more Squats 'counts-as' with the provenances re-do; but you can field an army of rough-riders or pretend you're tau.

I always thought the possibility of anyone having a complete army worth of squats was ultra-remote, but meme-worthy enough for someone to pull it off.
A rough-rider army doesn't even have that going for it so its inclusion seemed properly bizarre.

Of course, now after a bit of googling i find that GW released new rough-rider models last year and it all makes sense.

I liked the 'Cargo-8' concept (basically a trukk) but they should clearly have just made the 'munitorum armoured container' upgraydde make it an enclosed transport rather than messing around with armour values

What? There's an explicit squat provenance tho.

**Bobug**

This list is honestly great. It's got the cavalry the heresy community has wanted for milita since day 1, it's got the sentinels the community wanted since day 1, it's removed the mad OP stuff like the cult horde, it's super flexible, it names it super easy to just plug in your IG army, it's open to converting, it's varied, it seems to have actually been proofread. I think it's a. 10/10 job

**locarno24**

Even cult horde is still there in name: crusader and hatred everything plus a second melee enhancing provenance is still an option, it just doesn't give you Fearless.

Plus rogue psykers being able to pokeball i-choose-you bound daemons at someone with Rend The Veil gives them a meaningful use now.

Also, it's not GOOD but I love the alien curios warlord trait just because it catches the point so perfectly: you have a shiny gadget but have no idea what it does.

"Active THE DEVICE!!!!"
[It turns out 'the device' is a xenos demolition charge]
"Fffffuuuuuuuu....."
[Explodes]

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

lord_blackfang wrote:
SirDonlad wrote:
Typical 2.0 frankly.

No more Squats 'counts-as' with the provenances re-do; but you can field an army of rough-riders or pretend you're tau.

I always thought the possibility of anyone having a complete army worth of squats was ultra-remote, but meme-worthy enough for someone to pull it off.
A rough-rider army doesn't even have that going for it so its inclusion seemed properly bizarre.

Of course, now after a bit of googling i find that GW released new rough-rider models last year and it all makes sense.

I liked the 'Cargo-8' concept (basically a trukk) but they should clearly have just made the 'munitorum armoured container' upgraydde make it an enclosed transport rather than messing around with armour values

What? There's an explicit squat provenance tho.

Indeed. Kinfolk Helots makes your infantry Squats. Then a free pick of anything else you feel best compliments stunties.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Third Line is rather fun. Basically whilst yes, Lovely Boys, you can have a Baneblade…it’s so rusty, glancing hits penetrate.

**Perkustin**

I like the lore and it was a fun read for a GW free PDF. Also in terms of creating incredibly tempting Modelling possibilities and getting the creative cogs turning it's honestly one of the best bang for buck documents i've read.

I think there was a bit too much misplaced effort in the 'Provenances', some of them are absurd handicaps for imo very little thematic 'juice'.

Also the 'point tax' style balancing seems a little odd for a system based on 6/7th 40k. I feel that came in later, 100 points for a very weak HQ (with expensive wargear) feels like something 5 balance data slate buff/nerfs deep into an 8/9th edition codex.

Give the Cav their AP3 lances for free and you've almost got a semi decent unit i guess.

**Gert**

The HQ is what gives you access to the Provenances. They used to be paid for but now are included in the price for the Force Commander.

**Perkustin**

Given the change i suppose you're right but it's just that imo in (3/4/5)6/7th it didn't really work like that.

You would often get things like the provenances essentially for free (they usually didn't come with handicaps either! haha) like the formations and not have points taxes added to character itself.

At an even more basic level You didn't pay more for some character that gave you whatever elites choice as troops, you payed for the statline and tabletop abilities.

**Fifty**

Honestly, watching some people here whinge about how the free pdf didn't have enough beta testing and how the free pdf isn't powerful enough and how the free pdf won't complete your tax returns for you is just mind-blowing.

Anyone who was looking to this list for the next hot tournament list in a marine-centric game system kinda misundertands the point, no?

Back in HH1.0 I played a non-optimised infantry heavy, elite grenadiers type list for a six battle campaign. I lost every single game and had a blast.

Hell, I nearly beat a Custodes & Sisters of Silence list; all it needed was for my opponent to fail one failable leadership test, and the game was mine. It was one of my hobby highlights. I still remember it now at least five years later. I wiped out a squad of Space Wolf terminators, and though I lost that battle, I still count it a moral victory. See them? Those Space Wolves? Yeah, they lost ten terminators to militia. They're not so tough. Another Space Wolves player spent the entire game giving his toy soldiers extra inches on their movement and various other types of WAAC type shenanigans just to beat them.

There are playable armies here, and whilst they are probably underpowered, they aren't unusable. They also feel very thematic and narratively driven.

Blood hell people, get a grip of yourselves.

**Bobug**

*furiously hammers exalt button*

**lord_blackfang**

Free or not the list exists to sell miniatures, and needs to be designed with some degree of competence if it is to perform that function for people who aren't unthinking slaves to the brand.

**Fifty**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Free or not the list exists to sell miniatures, and needs to be designed with some degree of competence if it is to perform that function for people who aren't unthinking slaves to the brand.

Why does not worrying too much if I win lots of games equate to being an unthinking slave to the brand?

If I run a militia list, I'm doing it for the narrative of the plucky underdog, not trying to fight on a level playing field.

I don't want zero chance of winning, but I don't care if it is only a low chance. Like I said, even my badly written list did okay last time out, and was excellent in terms of making it a fun experience. If all someone cares about is winning, there are other lists for them, you know?

**Gert**

So you whinging for a full page is because you're worried about GW's profits? Suuuuuuurrreee.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fifty wrote:
Why does not worrying too much if I win lots of games equate to being an unthinking slave to the brand?

If I run a militia list, I'm doing it for the narrative of the plucky underdog, not trying to fight on a level playing field.

I don't want zero chance of winning, but I don't care if it is only a low chance. Like I said, even my badly written list did okay last time out, and was excellent in terms of making it a fun experience. If all someone cares about is winning, there are other lists for them, you know?

That's always been my philosophy on the army and continues to be. I brought up the beast unit when our group was discussing the list and one said it wasn't a great unit to which I said, "Who cares, I can take battle crocodiles.".

**lord_blackfang**

Gert wrote:
So you whinging for a full page is because you're worried about GW's profits? Suuuuuuurrreee.

I have no horse in this race except a desire for a healthy game ecosystem and a personal passion for seeing competent design for its own sake, neither of which is happening here. But I do assume GW is motivated by GW's profits, hence this pdf is not only a subjective failure in my eyes as a rules connoisseur but an objective failure at its intended goal of boosting sales and reaffirms a staggering level of incompetence present in the design studio and a depressing level of low standards in the customer base. But perhaps I'm wrong and it will motivate enough whales to go out and buy 50 boxes of Breachers/Blooded/Krieg/whatever that they'll never even unwrap that GW will consider it a worthwhile job.

**Not Online!!!**

So, after a day of deliberation i see 3 issues:

Nr. 1 a "normal" list, will just get fethed. no two ways around it. you are not running a bad list, you are running a list that will inevitably get slaugtered and even something like SA will massacre you if you like grens and recons.

Unless you play to piss off literally every other player in the vicinity by beeing as annoying as possible to play against respectivly your list.
------------------

Nr. 2. You run Melee spam of very specific spams. Ogryns with thunder hammers on ini 2 with 4+ Shield and a medicae. / Or mass cav 1 turn charge. S7 Ap3 and brutal 2 are surely nice T1 in your face (especially with feral warriors... when mixed with shotguns)

Nr. 3. You run what i call the meat grinder. Remember, all your normal and levy militia can take up to 3 squads for one troopslot meaning that technically you can throw down 18 50 man blocks of bajonett levies. for a measily 1980 pts. Returning on 4+ due to unending horde. Add in the force commander you are at 2080 pts. Now you go to your eliteslot and buy artillery. And or some shotguns. And so long you don't run into salamanders and their massed flamers, yeah you just chocke your enemy Alternative take, 40 mortar teams and 300 militia. And watch the despair of rolling that many direction dices oh and there are units that can carry a nuncio AND you got the option still for elite artillery AND heavy support artillery...

------------------

ergo sequitur: If you want to play your strengths, which you will need imo since the army doesn't do intermediate semi elite well or tacs, you either drown in piles of models and you do so to your opponent too or you run a very iffy skew, and pray that you get t1.

That is not good design, and i say that as someone that loves infantry artillery armies. Otoh, "elite " has far too little access to special weapons (seriously 1 in militia regardless of size? and the command cardre? nvm grens).

**SirDonlad**

lord_blackfang wrote:
SirDonlad wrote:
Typical 2.0 frankly.

No more Squats 'counts-as' with the provenances re-do; but you can field an army of rough-riders or pretend you're tau.

I always thought the possibility of anyone having a complete army worth of squats was ultra-remote, but meme-worthy enough for someone to pull it off.
A rough-rider army doesn't even have that going for it so its inclusion seemed properly bizarre.

Of course, now after a bit of googling i find that GW released new rough-rider models last year and it all makes sense.

I liked the 'Cargo-8' concept (basically a trukk) but they should clearly have just made the 'munitorum armoured container' upgraydde make it an enclosed transport rather than messing around with armour values

What? There's an explicit squat provenance tho.

Where is the power armour?
That was what clued me into the 'Survivors of the Dark Age' being a Squat provenance - the official RT-era squats models i remember have PA.

edit: oh, would you look at that! GW released new models for squats in 2022, and they are all in exo/power armour...

**Lord Damocles**

Fifty wrote:
Honestly, watching some people here whinge about how the free pdf didn't have enough beta testing and how the free pdf isn't powerful enough and how the free pdf won't complete your tax returns for you is just mind-blowing.

Anyone who was looking to this list for the next hot tournament list in a marine-centric game system kinda misundertands the point, no?

Back in HH1.0 I played a non-optimised infantry heavy, elite grenadiers type list for a six battle campaign. I lost every single game and had a blast.

Hell, I nearly beat a Custodes & Sisters of Silence list; all it needed was for my opponent to fail one failable leadership test, and the game was mine. It was one of my hobby highlights. I still remember it now at least five years later. I wiped out a squad of Space Wolf terminators, and though I lost that battle, I still count it a moral victory. See them? Those Space Wolves? Yeah, they lost ten terminators to militia. They're not so tough. Another Space Wolves player spent the entire game giving his toy soldiers extra inches on their movement and various other types of WAAC type shenanigans just to beat them.

There are playable armies here, and whilst they are probably underpowered, they aren't unusable. They also feel very thematic and narratively driven.

Blood hell people, get a grip of yourselves.

And now imagine a world in which the list was balanced.

**lord_blackfang**

Most RT squats wore flak, do an image search. And why would militia have power armour

These are inducted subhumans, not Leagues of Votann.

**Bobug**

Not Online!!! wrote:
So, after a day of deliberation i see 3 issues:

Nr. 1 a "normal" list, will just get fethed. no two ways around it. you are not running a bad list, you are running a list that will inevitably get slaugtered and even something like SA will massacre you if you like grens and recons.

Unless you play to piss off literally every other player in the vicinity by beeing as annoying as possible to play against respectivly your list.
------------------

Nr. 2. You run Melee spam of very specific spams. Ogryns with thunder hammers on ini 2 with 4+ Shield and a medicae. / Or mass cav 1 turn charge. S7 Ap3 and brutal 2 are surely nice T1 in your face (especially with feral warriors... when mixed with shotguns)

Nr. 3. You run what i call the meat grinder. Remember, all your normal and levy militia can take up to 3 squads for one troopslot meaning that technically you can throw done 18 50 man blocks of bajonett levies. for a measily 1980 pts. Returning on 4+ due to unending horde. Add in the force commander you are at 2080 pts. Now you go to your eliteslot and buy artillery. And or some shotguns. And so long you don't run into salamanders and their massed flamers, yeah you just chocke your enemy Alternative take, 40 mortar teams and 300 militia. And watch the despair of rolling that many direction dices oh and there are units that can carry a nuncio AND you got the option still for elite artillery AND heavy support artillery...

------------------

ergo sequitur: If you want to play your strengths, which you will need imo since the army doesn't do intermediate semi elite well or tacs, you either drown in piles of models and you do so to your opponent too or you run a very iffy skew, and pray that you get t1.

That is not good design, and i say that as someone that loves infantry artillery armies. Otoh, "elite " has far too little access to special weapons (seriously 1 in militia regardless of size? and the command cardre? nvm grens).

I'm not sure your "meat grinder" would pan out particularly well, remember those hordes are ld6 (5 if the sarge goes down) before night fight and fear, and if they fail a morale test they're flat out gone.

Sorry let me clarify, I don't think it will be awful, but I also don't think it'll be some broken game winning strat either. Definitely a fun option though

Oh levy also aren't line!

**SirDonlad**

Literally never saw a squat which wasn't in power armour apart from the trikes, bikes and sentinels.
What are the current models kitted out in?

If the militia having PA is weird then why are they able to take volkite weapons?

edit: or landraiders..

**morganfreeman**

The point-tax HQ seems that costly because it’s your only source of moral ignoring. Giving him an iron halo, a servo skull, and the tyrant trait gives you a 3++ HQ who makes nearby squads auto-pass failed moral checks at the low cost of d6 models (so maybe 12 points worth of dudes).

While the army isn’t pants-on-head-slowed powerful, it looks like it doesn’t have to be weak. Combining provenances well can get get you hordes of WS4 Str5 on the charge with Shred for like 4ppm. While individual models are weak, those guys can chew through even WE despoilers on a pound-for-pound basis. At 10 dudes per terminator, they’re definitely a threat.

While it’s no IA13, it’s probably as close as we’re ever going to get.

**Not Online!!!**

Bobug wrote:

I'm not sure your "meat grinder" would pan out particularly well, remember those hordes are ld6 (5 if the sarge goes down) before night fight and fear, and if they fail a morale test they're flat out gone.

Sorry let me clarify, I don't think it will be awful, but I also don't think it'll be some broken game winning strat either. Definitely a fun option though

Oh levy also aren't line!

Line is practically irrelevant though, it is only relevant for 2 out of 6 missions for the rest, troops are perfectly fine.
Then there's the fact that them dying completly is actually a benefit, because you then remove them as a casuality and for that you get to roll endless hordes faster.
And it's hardly fun, it's merely drowning the table in militia and creating a situation in which you can't get wiped but are basically using a pillow against a steel beam. For one or two matches it's certainly a list to play with and against but ehh..

Also the mortar list would just be pain to play against.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

morganfreeman wrote:
The point-tax HQ seems that costly because it’s your only source of moral ignoring. Giving him an iron halo, a servo skull, and the tyrant trait gives you a 3++ HQ who makes nearby squads auto-pass failed moral checks at the low cost of d6 models (so maybe 12 points worth of dudes).

While the army isn’t pants-on-head-slowed powerful, it looks like it doesn’t have to be weak. Combining provenances well can get get you hordes of WS4 Str5 on the charge with Shred for like 4ppm. While individual models are weak, those guys can chew through even WE despoilers on a pound-for-pound basis. At 10 dudes per terminator, they’re definitely a threat.

While it’s no IA13, it’s probably as close as we’re ever going to get.

That is fair, but my question, why bother with a horde of infantry when you can T1 charge someone of the table.

meanwhile arty is basically either a pillow or doom incarnate depending upon enemy.

**morganfreeman**

Not Online!!! wrote:

That is fair, but my question, why bother with a horde of infantry when you can T1 charge someone of the table.

meanwhile arty is basically either a pillow or doom incarnate depending upon enemy.

Board control, cheaper PPM, enough slots to take sufficient units to absorb losses, the ability to tough it out in prolonged combats (which the cav would be terrible at). Or straight up not liking horses in 40k.

My example was the first thing that came to mind for me. I’ve no doubt it’s not the only functional / decently strong list in there or that it couldn’t be enhanced by some cav units to help win combats.