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Fun fact on Orks and Daemons?

Daemons cannot successfully possess an Ork.

A Warphead might accidentally become host as all Psykers might. But once in the Ork’s head? Its sense of self is too much for a Daemon to control. Here’s the relevant quote.

Freebooterz, pp 52 wrote:

Occasionally Weirdboy Warpheadz (who have become addicted to the warp and reckless in the use of their psychic powers) become possessed by Daemons.

This happens because the Weirdboy acts as a natural conduit for warp energy when he uses his power and a daemon can be sucked into him from the Warp along with pure warp energy. However this does not result in daemonic possession of the same kind as would occur in a human psyker.

The Ork personality and soul are much more robust and resistant. Orks are resolute and self knowing and there is almost no weakness in their minds for a daemon to exploit in order to manipulate the host.

The daemon is therefore unable to take control and is effectively imprisoned within the Weirdboy with the result that the Weirdboy becomes greatly enhanced.

The cost to the Weirdboy is a form of mania in which he appears to be constantly arguing with himself whilst his mind disputes with the daemon prisoner within him. The result is a confused Weirdboy almost ecstatic with power, sharing his body with a daemon who is very disenchanted with the situation and prone to outbursts of frustrated wailing.

Such possessed Weirdboyz are very rare, and usually keep themselves to themselves or are avoided by other Orks. Like other Warpheadz the Possessed Weirdboy doesn’t need Minderz because he actually enjoys using his powers., but unlike ordinary Warheadz he has no Madboy followers. This is because the Madboyz, in their intuitively accurate way, recognise the daemonic presence in the Warphead and avoid him. Being less psychically attuned, Gretchen and Snotlings are quite willing to serve the Warphead and soon become used to his endless conversations with himself, inexplicable poltergeist activity and occasional outbursts of daemonic wailing

 Haighus wrote:
There is also the exceedingly rare outcome of daemonhood with multiple patrons, therefore providing freedom. The Be'Lakor route.

There is one known example. One.

Peraturbo and Lorgar are pretty much undivided Daemon Princes/Primarches aswell.

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
There is also the exceedingly rare outcome of daemonhood with multiple patrons, therefore providing freedom. The Be'Lakor route.

There is one known example. One.

Peraturbo and Lorgar are pretty much undivided Daemon Princes/Primarches aswell.

I think they currently occupy an unknown position. Their ascension comes from an era where daemon princes did not have to be affiliated with a sole patron, and they haven't been properly explored in recent times.

Lorgar could well carry the Mark of Chaos Ascendent, but we won't know until they get 40k models methinks.

Here's a question: is Chaos vulnerable to Chaos? Can a follower of one god be converted/fall to another god? It seems like it could make for some interesting storytelling, but I'm not super familiar with the chaos lore.

Probably.

I know that followers of Chaos Undivided have to constantly keep the Chaos Gods at bay or eventually fall to them.

I don't believe so mostly because of the power a given God will have over a mortal's soul. It would likely be doable if the mortal in question was kind of on the cusp of true commitment but I don't think it would be possible for say a World Eater to turn to Slaanesh or a Thousand Son to Nurgle.

In Lords of Silence there is a recently turned Plague Marine that wonders if he chose the wrong god because unlike all the others he's quite angry in battle.

Once you’re Marked, that’s about it.

Hence there are some who’ll only pay comparative lip service when they think a blessing or protection might help whatever it is they’re up to at that moment.

It's thematically appropriate that (Imperium-aligned) humans are particularly vulnerable to Chaos - humans have blinders on with respect to how much their society feeds the Chaos gods and primes people to fall. All of the degeneracy, ignorance, and corruption of the Imperium produces a populace that is full of negative emotion and ripe for the plucking. The Tau, Eldar, and even Orks do much better.

If that is trhe current definition of "falls to chaos" then yeah, GK are the only 100% confirmed will never fall to Chaos. It's part of their Mary Sue lore/plot armor. The only other is the Sisters of Silence, to whom the Power of Chaos has literally no effect.

It depends on your definition of corruption.

Chaos can attack and damage you physically, through mutation.

Chaos can attack and damage your soul, through magic, warp shenanigans, powerful artifacts, etc. This usually has a physical component but can just as often be madness like the murder curse. .

Are these considered corruption?

Or is corruption when a person willingly falls to Chaos and starts accepting its gifts?

If you take Chaos corruption as not something physical or even metaphysical, but a choice made by a person that's been warped by exposure to it, then it makes a little more sense why there's resistance in the more advanced alien races (because in their arrogance, they believe that nothing chaos can offer them is worth it) or the Imperium's elites--because they're aware of it and know the signs to look at in themselves and each other.

Heck, even some normal guardsmen are somewhat resistant to Chaos' influence because of the armor of contempt--they know it, know its dangers, and absolutely hate it with every fiber of their being.

For example, Gaunt went to a Chaos world to perform guerilla operations. He stayed there for years. When he returned, his superiors were going to execute him as a matter of fact because no one could be in that situation and not have been tainted or corrupted, but he hadn't fallen. Now if Gaunt were randomly hit by a TS psyker spell that turned him into a spawn, is that chaos corruption? To me, that's a no--it's basically a bolter shell to his soul and using the leftover twisted flesh to create a monster.

If the emperor dies and becomes a warp god and they all worship him, aren’t they now corrupted by chaos? Chaos is a vague term that is used to demonise sentient creatures that want to worship something other than the emperor and this immediately becomes an enemy of the imperium.

Those soldiers like custodies that are immune to chaos are just able to have no desire to worship a warp entity or religion other than the emperor. But the cult of the emperor is just as bad, if not worse.

I’m also not sure about the phrase chaos corruption. Is it corruption if you are willing? The followers of chaos gods often call it the embrace of their gods which is much more telling

You know what I'd love to see, a small grab bag of chaos xenos in say a R&H army. I can imagine an Eldar in desperation committing to Khorne or Tzeentch in a desperate bid to avoid their soul being devoured by Slannesh, creating a warband of followers and slaves who are targeted by say Emperor's children and Slannesh worshippers but backed by the other Chaos god.

In fact, putting a grab bag of such Xenos into an army but make it a trade off. If you say take the Chaos Eldar/Orks/LoV/whatever other kind of Xenos you cannot bring allied CSM. Make the story good, make it a legitimate trade off and have the uncorrupted Xenos view the Chaos Convert with some absolute loathing but they should gain something from the bargain, even if they lose a lot more. Wish this was a concept they explored more.

Warp entity emperor would be hilarious in a very grim dark way. He'd hate his existence as it was a sign of his failure to stomp out religion.

I always assumed custodes didn't worship the emperor and would be all about the imperial truth thing but I have almost zero knowledge of the custodes fluff.

Custodes maintain that worshiping the Emperor is wrong but they also acknowledge the power the Ecclesiarchy has in keeping the Imperium from tearing itself apart. They see the Imperial Cult as a necessary evil, one that the Emperor himself will stomp out when he eventually rises from the Golden Throne.

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
Warp entity emperor would be hilarious in a very grim dark way. He'd hate his existence as it was a sign of his failure to stomp out religion.

I always assumed custodes didn't worship the emperor and would be all about the imperial truth thing but I have almost zero knowledge of the custodes fluff.

Depends on his motivation to stomp out religion.

On one hand, it could’ve been an attempt to hog all the worship for himself, hoping to one day transcend to Godhood.

It could’ve been an attempt to starve the dark gods of worship, hoping to reduce their power and bring some form of balance back to the warp,

It could simply have been “if nobody knows about the gods, they won’t go bothering them”.

 Gert wrote:
Custodes maintain that worshiping the Emperor is wrong but they also acknowledge the power the Ecclesiarchy has in keeping the Imperium from tearing itself apart. They see the Imperial Cult as a necessary evil, one that the Emperor himself will stomp out when he eventually rises from the Golden Throne.

Thanks for the info!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
Warp entity emperor would be hilarious in a very grim dark way. He'd hate his existence as it was a sign of his failure to stomp out religion.

I always assumed custodes didn't worship the emperor and would be all about the imperial truth thing but I have almost zero knowledge of the custodes fluff.

Depends on his motivation to stomp out religion.

On one hand, it could’ve been an attempt to hog all the worship for himself, hoping to one day transcend to Godhood.

It could’ve been an attempt to starve the dark gods of worship, hoping to reduce their power and bring some form of balance back to the warp,

It could simply have been “if nobody knows about the gods, they won’t go bothering them”.

I suppose outcompeting the chaos god, thereby weakening them, would be another method to getting rid of them. Presumably the emperor has far more worshippers than the individual chaos gods, so he should already have a leg up on them one on one (and presumably even with their powers combined, but maybe I'm forgetting something)

mrFickle wrote:
If the emperor dies and becomes a warp god and they all worship him, aren’t they now corrupted by chaos? Chaos is a vague term that is used to demonise sentient creatures that want to worship something other than the emperor and this immediately becomes an enemy of the imperium.

Those soldiers like custodies that are immune to chaos are just able to have no desire to worship a warp entity or religion other than the emperor. But the cult of the emperor is just as bad, if not worse.

I’m also not sure about the phrase chaos corruption. Is it corruption if you are willing? The followers of chaos gods often call it the embrace of their gods which is much more telling

Again, the Warp does not equal Chaos. Plenty of Warp entities and abilities are not Chaotic in origin and not corrupting.

For example, non-Chaos psykers channel raw Warp energy, but it is bad news if they start channeling specifically Chaos energy (this would be a failed "Perils of the Warp" test in game terms). The Empyrean itself is neutral, Chaos is not.

So an ascended Warp-Emperor would almost certainly not be a Chaos god, but a "regular" Warp god.

Chaos is not used as a generic term for those that worship other gods (that would be heretic). For example, the Imperium knows of the Ork and Eldar pantheons, but does not routinely refer to either as Chaos worshippers. Chaos isn't even a common term within the Imperium because the details are suppressed- it is a specific term used by those in the know. The more general terms for the forces of Chaos are the Ruinous Powers, the Forces of Disorder, or simply Traitors.

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
Here's a question: is Chaos vulnerable to Chaos? Can a follower of one god be converted/fall to another god? It seems like it could make for some interesting storytelling, but I'm not super familiar with the chaos lore.

Potentially.

There's Bel'akor's legions which is comprised with daemons (who are, at their very core, small slivers of aspects of the various chaos gods) of all types and marks. And ol' Bel only works for ol' Bel.

There's also the Forge of Soul which can compel marked daemons to its services (usually defense). Though that might be less corruption and more of a pact. Still, it shows that marked daemons can be forced to fight against their own faction by outside forces.

Then there's the theory that at the heart of every Chaos god is Slaanesh. After all, Khorne's bloodlust, Tzeentch's scheming, and Nurgle's pursuit of disease and stagnation are probably the purest forms of Obsession in both realities.

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:


Peraturbo and Lorgar are pretty much undivided Daemon Princes/Primarches aswell.

I read an interesting theory that Perturabo may not actually be a daemon prince, just look very, very much like one due to massive augmentations and experimentation, as an effort to stave off the slow soul drain inflicted on him by Fulgrim during the Horus Heresy.

Personally, I like this take and wouldn't mind it being used to retcon Perturabo's daemonhood, since I'm not sure it was ever expanded beyond "...and then Perty was a daemon primarch."

Altima wrote:

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
Here's a question: is Chaos vulnerable to Chaos? Can a follower of one god be converted/fall to another god? It seems like it could make for some interesting storytelling, but I'm not super familiar with the chaos lore.

Potentially.

There's Bel'akor's legions which is comprised with daemons (who are, at their very core, small slivers of aspects of the various chaos gods) of all types and marks. And ol' Bel only works for ol' Bel.

There's also the Forge of Soul which can compel marked daemons to its services (usually defense). Though that might be less corruption and more of a pact. Still, it shows that marked daemons can be forced to fight against their own faction by outside forces.

Then there's the theory that at the heart of every Chaos god is Slaanesh. After all, Khorne's bloodlust, Tzeentch's scheming, and Nurgle's pursuit of disease and stagnation are probably the purest forms of Obsession in both realities.

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:


Peraturbo and Lorgar are pretty much undivided Daemon Princes/Primarches aswell.

I read an interesting theory that Perturabo may not actually be a daemon prince, just look very, very much like one due to massive augmentations and experimentation, as an effort to stave off the slow soul drain inflicted on him by Fulgrim during the Horus Heresy.

Personally, I like this take and wouldn't mind it being used to retcon Perturabo's daemonhood, since I'm not sure it was ever expanded beyond "...and then Perty was a daemon primarch."

Perturabo had a relatively cool story on how he became a daemon prince.

He set up the Iron Cage and essentially sacrificed a whole load of both Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors on an altar of ‘I am also awesome at defending sieges’ with the whole thing designed to give him the power to ascend.

The problem with Chaos isn't that too many factions are immune to it rather than Chaos being saturday morning cartoon villains.

Custodians can't be corrupted because they're made that way. Custodians being "mind controlled" is for me a plot hole in the lore as this sparked the debate whether Custodians can be corrupted or not.

SoB being incorruptible by Chaos is just a myth in the 40K community. Miriael Sabathiel is the greatest example but unfortunately she hasn't been expanded upon. With the recent lore we got SoB turned to Khorne. The reason why GW doesn't release Chaos corrupted SoB is because people will jack off to tentacle Sisters with crab like hands and bloated corpses with vaginal teeth swarming with maggots.

Tau weren't/cannot be corrupted by Chaos like you said because their souls have little presence in the Warp and thus Chaos has no interest. This doesn't mean that they cannot get corrupted and with recent lore this might change.

Orks simply cannot be corrupted because they're a living fungus who are under the protection of Gork and Mork. Orks might be dumb but they aren't dumb enough to worship the Chaos Gods. In old lore there used to be Chaos Orks who worshiped Khorne and Nurgle.

Tyranids cannot be corrupted because of the Hive Mind but a Tyranid ship who's been cut off from the Hive Mind and entered the Warp can be corrupted. Even if didn't become corrupted by Chaos it can still heavily mutate.

There used to Chaos worshiping Eldar but this was also retconed because the Eldar are the only ones who know what the Chaos Gods are and are not foolish to worship them just because Slaanesh has "owes" them.

I don't see the problem with the Necrons being anti-warp (they aren't entirely), this has existed for ages and I don't see how it is Mary Sue writing.

The only Mary Sue writing is Chaos being dumb and weak.

 Haighus wrote:

I don't think any newer canon has retconned Khorne Stormboyz? Chaos Orks definitely exist in the lore, although again likely to be exceptionally rare in any meaningful numbers. Again, I'd think more likely amongst Freebooterz.

There used to be a small number of Orks who worshiped Khorne and Nurgle in old lore, there were also Chaos Necrons. This was retconed as this honestly doesn't fit the factions. Orks can't be corrupted because they have no souls and they're under the protection of Gork and Mork and Necrons have always been anti-warp spaghetti.

It’s…it’s as if you’ve not read any primary source background, and are just going off hearsay.

With regards to the murder curse in AoO Angron? Yeah. Nobody started worshipping Khorne as a result. At all. Rather they were driven insane and fell upon all and sundry. Total, indiscriminate murder of whoever came into range, line of sight or range. No rituals mentioned. No dedications mentioned. No praising of Khorne mentioned.

Orks? Stormboyz of Khorne were once a thing, and (walking t’bookshelf to grab Freebooterz and refresh memory). They’re outcasts, as Ork Society just doesn’t tolerate Chaos Worship because like so much, it’s just Not Orky.

Chaos Renegade Ork Warbands were Ork led, but specifically noted as being treated with suspicion and ridicule by other Orks.

Ork Mutants are actively shunned, described as poor, pathetic and confused creatures as a result.

This innate sense of Orkiness also extends to Ork Genestealer Hybrids. Here other Orks notice “there’s sumfink wrong with those ladz”, that they’re not proper Orkses, and have been taken over by the Bug-eyes. As a result, the nascent cult and infected Orks are usually wiped out pretty quickly. Interestingly, Ork GSC are inclined toward Chaos worship to improve their lot, despite Chaos and Genestealer influence being described in the same paragraph as little threat to Orks.

Tau are a somewhat different story. They’re not a psychic race, so one main point of influence simply isn’t there. Further, they don’t make use of Warp Drives (and have no Navigator equivalent), so that’s yet another source of encounter and influence Chaos just doesn’t have with them. And I’m not aware of the Tau race really having a concept of gods or Gods - which itself is a barrier to fiddling. AoO Farsight makes reference to them acknowledging “Mind Science” used by their foes though.

Taken together? We can’t say the Tau soul is actually resistant to the touch and corruption of Chaos, just that the powers have few if any real opportunity to possess, influence or twist Tau. Especially compare to mankind. Warp attack still kill them. Nurgle can still infect them etc, but only through direct contact with Chaos Followers in realspace.

Necrons as covered….have no souls, those having long, long since been devoured. There have never been Chaos Necrons. At all. The Necrontyr became the Necrons long before any of the Chaos Gods emerged. Into the modern day, having no Psykers and indeed no souls means they’ve nothing to bargain away, and very, very few Necrons retain anything like the required independence of thought and action to even consider trying to strike a bargain.

You’re probably thinking of the old Chaos Android models, first seen in Space Crusade, and later in 2nd Ed Space Marine. Those were essentially man-sized Daemon Engines. The incumbent Daemon didn’t much like being confined, let alone having to follow orders, and would take any opportunity to twist the wording of an order as close to disobedience as they could.

Chaos is an insidious foe, but heavily influenced by mankind as its main source of mortal pawns, and being a super numerous species prone to random psychic evolution. Indeed, it was a sudden onset of psychic evolution that is believed to have been a major contributor to man’s previous stellar empire collapsing, as it allowed Daemonic infiltration.

That’s not poor writing. You not liking it does not make it poor writing.

panzerfront14 wrote:
You know what I'd love to see, a small grab bag of chaos xenos in say a R&H army. I can imagine an Eldar in desperation committing to Khorne or Tzeentch in a desperate bid to avoid their soul being devoured by Slannesh, creating a warband of followers and slaves who are targeted by say Emperor's children and Slannesh worshippers but backed by the other Chaos god.

Going back to the old 2e material, there's supposed to be Chaos-aligned Eldar in the Crone Worlds, who are among the most powerful and fearsome of the champions of Chaos. I'd love to see them get fleshed out some.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:

There used to be a small number of Orks who worshiped Khorne and Nurgle in old lore, there were also Chaos Necrons. This was retconed as this honestly doesn't fit the factions. Orks can't be corrupted because they have no souls and they're under the protection of Gork and Mork and Necrons have always been anti-warp spaghetti.

Chaos Androids were not Chaos Necrons. They were their own unique thing which just happened to look similar. Androids were daemonically possessed metal skeletons built by Chaos Squats.

Lots of factions are resistant to Chaos for the same reason lots of factions are resistant to Genestealer cults - so GW don't have to field thousands of "why can't we have an army of Chaos Eldar?" questions every edition.

Given the breadth and scope of ways chaos corruption I'd be inclined to say that anything not explicitly stated to be immune isn't, they just don't turn up often enough to be represented on the tabletop, and not all of those will take the same form as chaos-corrupted humans and space marines do.

AoS has recently been doing a better job, particularly through WarCry. There you’ve Elves, Stunties and Ogres all as part of Cults and Factions. Not factions unto themselves, at least not yet. But they are there.

Hecaton wrote:

panzerfront14 wrote:
You know what I'd love to see, a small grab bag of chaos xenos in say a R&H army. I can imagine an Eldar in desperation committing to Khorne or Tzeentch in a desperate bid to avoid their soul being devoured by Slannesh, creating a warband of followers and slaves who are targeted by say Emperor's children and Slannesh worshippers but backed by the other Chaos god.

Going back to the old 2e material, there's supposed to be Chaos-aligned Eldar in the Crone Worlds, who are among the most powerful and fearsome of the champions of Chaos. I'd love to see them get fleshed out some.

That sounds really interesting. I imagine they would be pretty rare and would tend to appear as the leaders of warbands rather than forming warbands in their entiriety. Similar to how Chaos Astartes often lead forces of Lost and the Damned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 F.E.A.R. wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

I don't think any newer canon has retconned Khorne Stormboyz? Chaos Orks definitely exist in the lore, although again likely to be exceptionally rare in any meaningful numbers. Again, I'd think more likely amongst Freebooterz.

There used to be a small number of Orks who worshiped Khorne and Nurgle in old lore, there were also Chaos Necrons. This was retconed as this honestly doesn't fit the factions. Orks can't be corrupted because they have no souls and they're under the protection of Gork and Mork and Necrons have always been anti-warp spaghetti.

But when was it retconned? 40k lore is generally still valid unless explicitly stated to be different (and even then, can often be reconciled through unreliable narration, differing perspectives, or the vagaries of warp influence and time).

Those Chaos-influenced Orks are no longer mentioned, but I have never come across any newer lore stating that Chaos Orks do not exist.

Khorne’s Stormboyz featured in the Freebooterz army list of Rogue Trader. Not just home to Freebooterz, but also Orky Outcasts who wouldn’t normally be allowed to exist, let alone fight, alongside their Tribe.

So they may well still be out there, but are never terribly numerous. Not only due to Jetpak Malfunction, but their keenness for getting stuck in as fast as possible. New recruits wouldn’t come from within the Freebooterz Fleet, as those tend to be already mature Orks, who’ve got the whole military discipline thing out of their system.

people throw around the word "retcon" too freely these days when they actually mean "not mentioned within an arbitrary time period I choose to acknowledge as being valid".

Particularly with 40K.

But, we have to recognise that 2nd Ed wasn’t just a tidying up of the game’s rules, but the background as well.

Some stuff hasn’t been mentioned in decades. Some has sort-of cropped up or been name checked in novels, but with a tantalising lack of wider context.

Orks have remained more-or-less stable. But, getting bigger the more they fight and win is new. Their breeding cycle has changed (used to be old Orks would wander off in the wilderness, and Wildboyz would wander out of the Wilderness). But active Chaos worshipping I don’t recall has been mentioned since.


Mark you, the 2nd Ed Ork Codex is still on my buy list, and I’ve never read it before, so there’s a time period of Ork lore I can’t say I’m terribly familiar with.