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Three of the players in my local shop have picked up the new Korn army, two of which both took Angron as their WL for 1000pt games.
This has quickly turned out to be a bit of a problem for some of the other players. Seeing as dealing with a 18w monster, is pretty tough. Especially when it's so hard to wound with it's toughness & the 4+ inv. Then you have to deal with him coming back, when the players also pad their armies, to specifically feed them more blood points.

Even as a GKs player, I've run across limited success. It's only affective against Angron to a point, but when he comes back and I keep bleeding models. It's sort of a losing game, no matter what.

Is there any word if Angron is going to get balanced out in the future, or are we going to be stuck with this annoying beat stick?

10th edition is coming out in a month or two.
That’ll change a lot.

Considering how GW writes their rules and that WE were at the tail end of 9th ed, the chance that the WE index is not going to have Angron respawning as some sort of a mechanic, is rather low. Especialy as GW makes the fast respawning like half of his entire lore.

Kill everything else and ignore Angron.

That doesn't really work on the small table that is ment for 1000pts games and with the speed Angron has. Plus WE do their objectives, even if they are being killed.

Removed - do not create alternate accounts to dodge suspensions.

Karol wrote:
That doesn't really work on the small table that is ment for 1000pts games and with the speed Angron has. Plus WE do their objectives, even if they are being killed.

You do know that those table sizes are merely recommendations, right?

Tell them to not be douche nozzles.

Angron is like 500 pts isn't he? Taking a primarch into a small game, when he takes up half your points alotment, is just douche baggery of the highest order. Encouraging players who aren't taking primarchs into small games is the best course of action.

Wargaming is a social pass time; ostracizing and shaming knob-goblins for being knob-goblins, until they decide to stop being knob-goblins, is a perfectly valid way to deal with knob-goblins.

Removed - do not create alternate accounts to dodge suspensions.

DiceRoller wrote:
Why is playing with models you bought some huge faux-pas? Shouldn't we expect GW to do better at writing rules instead of shaming people for wanting to play with the cool model they purchased?

The game never was and probably never will be in a state where you can have an enjoyable game with every possible combination of units on both sides. If one player is not having fun because they can't handle your unit selection, hiding behind "but I didn't do anything wrong, GW is making the rules!" is just avoiding to take responsibility.

Take a guess how long the person constantly getting roflstomped will show up regularely to play with you, if you keep insisting to run the same list and point size.

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:
That doesn't really work on the small table that is ment for 1000pts games and with the speed Angron has. Plus WE do their objectives, even if they are being killed.

You do know that those table sizes are merely recommendations, right?

And yet somehow "recommendations" are treated as rules. Also good luck making someone with a melee army playing at 1k points and winning games, play games on bigger tables, where they gain nothing, but lowering their chance to win.

The game never was and probably never will be in a state where you can have an enjoyable game with every possible combination of units on both sides.

When the person not liking the models used, rebuys units they want to play against, then paints them (so no -10VP happens), then I am sure most would be willing to consider playing such a set up once or twice. But you ain't convincing someone who picked a termintor heavy faction and bought according models, not play with fewer or no termintors.

When the person not liking the models used, rebuys units they want to play against, then paints them (so no -10VP happens), then I am sure most would be willing to consider playing such a set up once or twice. But you ain't convincing someone who picked a termintor heavy faction and bought according models, not play with fewer or no termintors.

Don’t pretend like a dedicated DW player showing up with a terminator list in 1k games (which isn’t even a problematic list tbh) is anything like a WE player showing up with Angron and chaff to support him. That’s like running a Knight Gallant in a 1k game, unbeatable without some serious preemptive tailoring.

I’d also bet money that the Angron models in this scenario - and probably entire WE armies - are grey legions. They sound like those kind of players.

Karol wrote:

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:
That doesn't really work on the small table that is ment for 1000pts games and with the speed Angron has. Plus WE do their objectives, even if they are being killed.

You do know that those table sizes are merely recommendations, right?

And yet somehow "recommendations" are treated as rules. Also good luck making someone with a melee army playing at 1k points and winning games, play games on bigger tables, where they gain nothing, but lowering their chance to win.

Outside a tourney it's not too hard. You talk to each other & you explain your position concerning the table size. And if they insist on something that only favors them? Then you politely decline the game.
Most players want to play. So if it's a choice between altering a table size or No Game.... Most will compromise.
You can even roll a dice to decide who picks the table size.
Besides, Angron & the WE are plenty fast. They have no issues crossing even full size tables.

Removed - do not create alternate accounts to dodge suspensions.

500 point models in a 1000 point list is dick bagger. Unless everyone brings a 500 point model.

Refuse to play him unless he stops with the crazy sque list.

DiceRoller wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

DiceRoller wrote:
Why is playing with models you bought some huge faux-pas? Shouldn't we expect GW to do better at writing rules instead of shaming people for wanting to play with the cool model they purchased?

The game never was and probably never will be in a state where you can have an enjoyable game with every possible combination of units on both sides. If one player is not having fun because they can't handle your unit selection, hiding behind "but I didn't do anything wrong, GW is making the rules!" is just avoiding to take responsibility.

Take a guess how long the person constantly getting roflstomped will show up regularely to play with you, if you keep insisting to run the same list and point size.

So the players who are winning with perfectly legal lists should be expected to buy new models but not the players who are losing that don't seem to be enjoying their lists... That seems backward to me. If you're struggling either find a way to outplay the problem or consider that the force your purchased may not meet your needs and get something else.

Morganfreeman's was being pretty harsh on the newbies who presumably just bought what they were excited about. That said, I think a_typical_hero is on the right track. While it would be nice for every possible list to be a good match against every other list, that's just not where the game is right now (nor has it ever been that way to my knowledge). Having good game experience is easier when you and your opponent intentionally take steps to create a good matchup.

Shaming newbies for buying the wrong models and winning with them would be really crummy. That said, taking a primarch to a 1k game does make it kind of difficult to create a good matchup. It's really easy to either have your primarch ignored all game or to have the primarch curbstomp the competition. So while the newbies aren't trying to be jerks, they have stumbled into starting armies that might be hard to enjoy playing against. Thus, some sort of compromise could help to make their games a mutually-enjoyable experience. After all, the others at their game store aren't obligated to spend hours of their lives suffering through unenjoyable matchups.

A couple things that might help if the newbies are willing to compromise:
* Maybe try having them play some 2v1 or 2v2 games. In theory, if Angron is balanced at 2k, then functionally increasing the game size to 2k (more or less) should help make matches less one-sided. After all, their opponents would basically be facing a 1,000 point army plus a pair of Angrons at that point.
* Maybe ask them to have Angron just count as a (really big) daemon prince?
* The old-timers with sufficiently large collections could maybe tailor their lists to make the matchups a little more even. Though obviously this still might not be the sort of game they want to play; which is fair.

Also note that:
A.) This will hopefully be a self-resolving problem if they grow their collections and start playing larger games. Again, Angron is theoretically better balanced in 2k games than 1k.
B.) I haven't really been following tournaments for a while, but I know that each of the pre-Angron primarchs were pretty busted when they came out and then eventually got nerfed (arguably overnerfed) with time. I wouldn't be surprised if we see the same pattern here.
C.) As has been pointed out, the game is about to get an overhaul, so maybe that will somehow fix the problem on its own.

 Wyldhunt wrote:


Shaming newbies for buying the wrong models and winning with them would be really crummy. That said, taking a primarch to a 1k game does make it kind of difficult to create a good matchup. It's really easy to either have your primarch ignored all game or to have the primarch curbstomp the competition. So while the newbies aren't trying to be jerks, they have stumbled into starting armies that might be hard to enjoy playing against. Thus, some sort of compromise could help to make their games a mutually-enjoyable experience. After all, the others at their game store aren't obligated to spend hours of their lives suffering through unenjoyable matchups.

FWIW, I actually agree with you if they're newbies. In that case a polite conversation is in order, and odds are good something can be worked out like the mentioned 2v2, or even not being allowed to bring him back once he dies.

That said... I doubt they're newbies. OP said that some people in his store picked up WEs and have been bringing Angron to 1k game, with no mention of anyone being new / learning. I'd argue it's implied that WE isn't their first army, even. Which is why I defaulted to them being TFG knob-goblins who deserve to be ostracized and shunned until they decide to partake in the hobby like adults with any sort of social skills. A suggestion I stand firmly by if they're not newbies / first-time-army-buyers, as then they're 100% doing it just to curb-stomp people and make others suffer for their own amusement.

Taking a big unit in small games has always been an issue, there are many factions out there which simple don't have the tools at that scale to deal with a skewed model (Orks for example, almost certainly won't have the shooting or psychic at 1k points, and Angron simply outclasses them at fighting).

The one saving grace of Angron is he only has one way to be played. Charge, kill, respawn when required. If my opponents were routinely bringing Angron at this point scale, I would try and do the following:
1. Try and go for the win on points.
2. Not even waste a single shot on Angron as it's a waste of time (don't tell your opponent that though, make them reserve blood tithes for respawning).
3. Spread your dudes out so Angron can only engage 1 unit per turn max.
4. Take smaller cheaper units as Angron will kill it regardless at this scale.
5. Go for secondaries that can be achieved by spreading out such as performing actions in table quarters.
6. Focus all efforts on killing the rest of the WE army, Angron without support will just bounce around killing low value units.
7. Reserve loads of stuff to bring on from whichever table edge Angron isn't on, make him work for it.
8. Don't kill Angron no matter how tempting, he'll deepstrike back into the game in a position less convenient for you.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Kill everything else and ignore Angron.

I've run two other games against the army. Being an elites army myself, I really don't have that much of a luxury in that regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:


Shaming newbies for buying the wrong models and winning with them would be really crummy. That said, taking a primarch to a 1k game does make it kind of difficult to create a good matchup. It's really easy to either have your primarch ignored all game or to have the primarch curbstomp the competition. So while the newbies aren't trying to be jerks, they have stumbled into starting armies that might be hard to enjoy playing against. Thus, some sort of compromise could help to make their games a mutually-enjoyable experience. After all, the others at their game store aren't obligated to spend hours of their lives suffering through unenjoyable matchups.

FWIW, I actually agree with you if they're newbies. In that case a polite conversation is in order, and odds are good something can be worked out like the mentioned 2v2, or even not being allowed to bring him back once he dies.

That said... I doubt they're newbies. OP said that some people in his store picked up WEs and have been bringing Angron to 1k game, with no mention of anyone being new / learning. I'd argue it's implied that WE isn't their first army, even. Which is why I defaulted to them being TFG knob-goblins who deserve to be ostracized and shunned until they decide to partake in the hobby like adults with any sort of social skills. A suggestion I stand firmly by if they're not newbies / first-time-army-buyers, as then they're 100% doing it just to curb-stomp people and make others suffer for their own amusement.

The only "NEW" player in the group, is playing Necrons. He's okay with the army, he just needs time to get all of his synergies together, and he doesn't have the patience to paint his models.

I've been helping him on that front, and he's hit a roadblock with painting the Silent King, but at least he's refrained from using him in the 1kpt games.. for the most part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Boosykes wrote:
500 point models in a 1000 point list is dick bagger. Unless everyone brings a 500 point model.

Refuse to play him unless he stops with the crazy sque list.

If I wanted to be a dick, I'd just throw the Thunderhawk at him. Most of us here, have anything from the Tau's supremacy war-suit, knight armies, Titanic list..etc.
He just seems all too interested in hammering out how to make the list viable. Even though most of us have told him that using such a model at 1kpts, is pretty horrible of a choice. This all the while being compared to the guy who runs the Silent King in his own games as well.

Boosykes wrote:
500 point models in a 1000 point list is dick bagger. Unless everyone brings a 500 point model.

Refuse to play him unless he stops with the crazy sque list.

Or Play into the Skew. Even winged blobs of 500 points can't be everywhere at once. Create/pick/run scenarios that reward simultaneous board control. There's always a breaking point where skew to either extreme loses. You may not always be able to find it in that points band/zone but it's there. I've made this point before. One 500 point knight loses to 500 points of Grots even if the Grot player take a nap on the Knight player's turns. The knight cannot be - over 5 turns - in enough places, and put out enough shots to outscore 4+ big blobs of Grots and one warboss that hides behind a wall. Adding another 500 points to give the "knight" two scoring infantry space marine squads changes the breaking point, but its still there. Alternate that with running a skew yourself. Some people fall in love with a model/character/whatever - they should get to have some fun once in a while. Especially if they're new and don't have a lot of options.

 Oborosen wrote:

If I wanted to be a dick, I'd just throw the Thunderhawk at him. Most of us here, have anything from the Tau's supremacy war-suit, knight armies, Titanic list..etc.

Thunderhawk auto lose. No scoring so he kills 200pts remnants and wins.


Supremacy and titans　too expensive to field so yea cheating would be dick. Of course by cheating you auto lose.

Either way. You lose game.

tneva82 wrote:

 Oborosen wrote:

If I wanted to be a dick, I'd just throw the Thunderhawk at him. Most of us here, have anything from the Tau's supremacy war-suit, knight armies, Titanic list..etc.

Thunderhawk auto lose. No scoring so he kills 200pts remnants and wins.


Supremacy and titans　too expensive to field so yea cheating would be dick. Of course by cheating you auto lose.

Either way. You lose game.

Plus, Angron can fly.

That too. Though point is he doesn't even need to bother with it. It won't one shot angron so kill 200pts and sit on objectives. Marine can't score objectives and not much secondaries he can do with aircraft anyway

I agree with previous comments; there's a clear difference between a newbie wanting to run his cool new centrepiece (we've all done that), and a TFG wanting to run a 500pt Primarch in a 1k game because he knows it's practically unbeatable to most.

Thee khorne preview is up and it covers angron: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/12/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-world-eaters/

angron looks tough and respawns with full wounds, dice permitting. So it *looks like* you'll have the same problem in 10th.

The issue is a skew list caused by concentrating ~50% of an army in a single model, a logical consequence of larger models being incorporated into 40k while remaining legal to field in smaller games (counting 2k as "normal" size, though I like 1k better personally).

You could blame the players because they could've known this would be anti-fun, you could blame gw for creating a system that allows this in the first place. Neither of these solves the issue though.

Simply talking to these players would be your best bet for resolving this. Maybe you could come up with some narrative scenario that works for everyone? Maybe say you'd happily face them once they get a 1500pts+ force together (diluting the skew), and play their other armies in the meantime?

It doesn't really feel fair to have to tell these players they can't play with their rulebook-legal force, but that's the way 40k goes sometimes.

As far as we can tell, you won't have that same problem in 10th. The chance of Angron respawning each turn in 10th is just over 13%. That is less likely than rolling a 6 on a single dice. You can increase the chance if get some rerolls, for Icons controlling objectives, but it isn't something you can expect to deal with multiple times in a game.

DiceRoller wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
Tell them to not be douche nozzles.

Angron is like 500 pts isn't he? Taking a primarch into a small game, when he takes up half your points alotment, is just douche baggery of the highest order. Encouraging players who aren't taking primarchs into small games is the best course of action.

Wargaming is a social pass time; ostracizing and shaming knob-goblins for being knob-goblins, until they decide to stop being knob-goblins, is a perfectly valid way to deal with knob-goblins.

Why is playing with models you bought some huge faux-pas? Shouldn't we expect GW to do better at writing rules instead of shaming people for wanting to play with the cool model they purchased?

That's an easy question to answer. Because it's a cheesy move that sacrifices other people's time & experience for your own selfish reasons. Just because "you bought the model" doesn't give you any special rights to be a douchebag. There's a social contract to which mature and respectful players should adhere. Don't buy the model.

I do agree with you that it's an issue that GW could easily address in the rules. But I suppose it's against their interest because they want to encourage sales of big, expensive models without having to invest in 2000+ points of smaller models. But if GW are going to priortise miniature sales over rules and gaming, the problem could and should be corrected by just refusing to play against such players.

I would suggest the OP politely declines to play against them as well as explaining the reason: fielding a cheesy army list is against the spirit of the game and just not much fun to play against. They will adapt or end up with no opponents. Although TBH, I'd personally have little interest in playing against anyone with that mentality regardless; they're no doubt little fun regardless. It would be tempting to make your own army list specifically tailored solely to nullify their cheesy advantage in order to give them a taste of their own medicine. However that's an expensive way to prove a point and shouldn't be necessary. Easier to just not play them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
As far as we can tell, you won't have that same problem in 10th. The chance of Angron respawning each turn in 10th is just over 13%. That is less likely than rolling a 6 on a single dice. You can increase the chance if get some rerolls, for Icons controlling objectives, but it isn't something you can expect to deal with multiple times in a game.

The chance of rolling a 1 is ~16.5%. Doesn't seem to be a huge difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shortymcnostrill wrote:
It doesn't really feel fair to have to tell these players they can't play with their rulebook-legal force, but that's the way 40k goes sometimes.

It's rulebook-legal not just not play them too. They make their own bed to lie in.

DiceRoller wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
Tell them to not be douche nozzles.

Angron is like 500 pts isn't he? Taking a primarch into a small game, when he takes up half your points alotment, is just douche baggery of the highest order. Encouraging players who aren't taking primarchs into small games is the best course of action.

Wargaming is a social pass time; ostracizing and shaming knob-goblins for being knob-goblins, until they decide to stop being knob-goblins, is a perfectly valid way to deal with knob-goblins.

Why is playing with models you bought some huge faux-pas? Shouldn't we expect GW to do better at writing rules instead of shaming people for wanting to play with the cool model they purchased?

Agreed, GW should put it into the mission packets that certain units are not allowed, especially in 500 pts. If you want a casual game you should say that upfront, if someone still brings a list that is overtuned for the mission format then they're a git. GW will make mistakes, it happens even to the best, because 40k is a physical game it has to move at a slower pace and there has to be room for fluffy lists and that means people have to be able to dial things down in case of imbalance, this is especially true for non-tournament formats like 500-1k pts and Crusade. If you want to minmax you should do it in the tournament format and look for opponents looking for the same thing, if you want to bring Angron in a casual game and the mission format makes him OP you should come up with house rules to fix things. I am not sure that Angron is a problem at 1k, OP might just be a whiner and you don't get to dictate how your opponent writes their lists 100%, like I had someone whine about me "spamming Destroyers" because I took several units of Heavy Destroyers that were overcosted at the time, I also had someone complain about my super competitive Sautekh list... Using the current codex where Sautekh is gak. If I felt my opponents had a list I couldn't beat I'd try to build a list to counter it first before bringing up the possibility of it being unfair.

Maybe it's just bad design to give a ~500pt model the ability to resurrect itself, basically for free.

 vipoid wrote:
Maybe it's just bad design to give a ~500pt model the ability to resurrect itself, basically for free.

I think perhaps the 10th edition version will be harder to succeed at reliably. Since the blessings happen at the start of the round if you're going second then your opponent has a whole turn to react, but I don't think that's relevant for a 1K game.

Ultimately unless you feed him he kills four units per game - assuming you don't let him in on turn 1. It is possible now to feed him a chaff unit with an invulnerable save and survive since his sweeps are cut in half. Then he's stuck on his turn. 100 points of Tzaangors could do it and the other 900 of my army can tackle the 500 of his.