Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Haighus wrote:
The Roman Empire does have a huge impact on the 40k lore (as big as the medieval era in my opinion), but it is framed in a manner that feels familiar to Brits with the way we are taught history- the shining Roman empire collapsing and giving way to the medieval dark ages.

The Imperium during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy heavily references the Roman empire, the principal military forces are even legions at the command of the Emperor. The later Imperium carries vestiges of this, with people harking back to the early days to shore up their own authority (similar to, for example, the Holy Roman Empire or Sultanate of Rum).

This does what references are supposed to do- provide a cultural shorthand metaphor for understanding the themes of the setting- hope dashed into despair. As 40k was made in Nottingham, England, it naturally uses references familiar to its creators and target audience of the time. If 40k had originated elsewhere, its main references would be different in keeping with those cultures.

I get that, and don't discount it, but, really, I think that the closer fit is to the HRE, and, if anybody specifically, Charlemagne and his paladins, rather than the ancient Roman Empire. I see a lot more of the paladins in the primarchs than I do any parallel to the Roman Empire. I think I even see a little of Horus in Ganelon.

If you want toe drag it across the English Channel, Arthur, the Knights of the Round Table and Mordred, but certainly after the fall of Rome, with the Emperor trying to rebuild it.

My thoughts.

The empire in warhammer fantasy battle is a better analogy for the holy roman empire- the Imperium is far broader in scope and source.

the primarchs too represent/are sourced from loads of other areas too - Russ was a viking, Khan was a mongol, horus was a gang leader plucked out of 'the warriors', gully and dorn are absolutely romans, angron was Spartacus etc. You can argue sanguinius and fulgrim lean towards the renaissance etc. And corvus snuck out of an Edgar Allan poe novel.

 Adeptekon wrote:
Artists steal, this is no secret. 40k just might be the greatest piece of art ever made.

"Good artists borrow, great artists steal." A quote which in modern day is often attributed to Steve Jobs, but amusingly, was originally coined by Picasso.

The quote is made more salient these days by the art generative AIs.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
If any period was more 'central' to 40k, its the reality that was the grim 1970s to 80s post-industrial thatcherite UK. And 80s pop culture.

Yes, this is probably the only "indigenous" element to the game that wasn't outright pilfered - post-industrial cities rules by violent gangs who are periodically beaten down by pitiless police forces while the elites hang out in the spires. The whole Ork aesthetic is also very punk British.

Maybe. While it did reflect certain realities, there's a good argument to be made that they stole that wholesale from AD2000 comics. Judge Dread = Adeptus Arbites etc....

 Eilif wrote:

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
If any period was more 'central' to 40k, its the reality that was the grim 1970s to 80s post-industrial thatcherite UK. And 80s pop culture.

Yes, this is probably the only "indigenous" element to the game that wasn't outright pilfered - post-industrial cities rules by violent gangs who are periodically beaten down by pitiless police forces while the elites hang out in the spires. The whole Ork aesthetic is also very punk British.

Maybe. While it did reflect certain realities, there's a good argument to be made that they stole that wholesale from AD2000 comics. Judge Dread = Adeptus Arbites etc....

I think both are applicable here, with 2000AD working off the same source theme of 70's-80's Britain. 40k Orks in particular seem to be genre-spawning for that type of Orc and probably the most original major concept in 40k. Basing an alien race on football firms is certainly something...

I've always found it interesting how those who are most protective of their copyrights have often been the ones who were most liberal in clipping from others ;-)

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:
Artists steal, this is no secret. 40k just might be the greatest piece of art ever made.

"Good artists borrow, great artists steal." A quote which in modern day is often attributed to Steve Jobs, but amusingly, was originally coined by Picasso.

The quote is made more salient these days by the art generative AIs.

Like David Attenborough's synthesized voice reading 40k lore.

NapoleonInSpace wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
The Roman Empire does have a huge impact on the 40k lore (as big as the medieval era in my opinion), but it is framed in a manner that feels familiar to Brits with the way we are taught history- the shining Roman empire collapsing and giving way to the medieval dark ages.

The Imperium during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy heavily references the Roman empire, the principal military forces are even legions at the command of the Emperor. The later Imperium carries vestiges of this, with people harking back to the early days to shore up their own authority (similar to, for example, the Holy Roman Empire or Sultanate of Rum).

This does what references are supposed to do- provide a cultural shorthand metaphor for understanding the themes of the setting- hope dashed into despair. As 40k was made in Nottingham, England, it naturally uses references familiar to its creators and target audience of the time. If 40k had originated elsewhere, its main references would be different in keeping with those cultures.

I get that, and don't discount it, but, really, I think that the closer fit is to the HRE, and, if anybody specifically, Charlemagne and his paladins, rather than the ancient Roman Empire. I see a lot more of the paladins in the primarchs than I do any parallel to the Roman Empire. I think I even see a little of Horus in Ganelon.

If you want toe drag it across the English Channel, Arthur, the Knights of the Round Table and Mordred, but certainly after the fall of Rome, with the Emperor trying to rebuild it.

My thoughts.

Eh, I think a set of mighty generals with independent power bases commanding their legions with personal loyalty, which then choose sides in an empire-shaking civil war, is archetypical Roman Empire.

Deadnight wrote:The empire in warhammer fantasy battle is a better analogy for the holy roman empire- the Imperium is far broader in scope and source.

the primarchs too represent/are sourced from loads of other areas too - Russ was a viking, Khan was a mongol, horus was a gang leader plucked out of 'the warriors', gully and dorn are absolutely romans, angron was Spartacus etc. You can argue sanguinius and fulgrim lean towards the renaissance etc. And corvus snuck out of an Edgar Allan poe novel.

I'd argue that Dorn is more of a medieval knight than a Roman. The aesthetic of the Imperial Fists in 30k is much more crusader-knight, and is where the Black Templars are spawned from. The Roman aspects of the IFs always felt more like dutiful compliance with the wider Imperium, especially after the implementation of the Codex Astartes.

I wonder if Fulgrim is a little later in theme, more Baroque than Renaissance?

 Haighus wrote:

I'd argue that Dorn is more of a medieval knight than a Roman. The aesthetic of the Imperial Fists in 30k is much more crusader-knight, and is where the Black Templars are spawned from. The Roman aspects of the IFs always felt more like dutiful compliance with the wider Imperium, especially after the implementation of the Codex Astartes.

I wonder if Fulgrim is a little later in theme, more Baroque than Renaissance?

I'll more-than-half agree on reflection haighus. I think the lion has more of the knight aesthetics/trappings and upbringing to be honest. On thinking deeper Maybe 'roman' is too narrow for the IFs, as you say. 'Greek' is also an element, but not necessarily the classical roman and Greek thing which is very 'ultramarine' - Maybe late-roman era/ byzantine is a better analogy? Constantinople was famous for withstanding many many sieges over the millenia after all. I always see if and um as being very thematically similar, regardless.

What I find more interesting is that a legions character can manifest in completely different ways*. As you rightly point out, thr zealous crusaders are reflective of the IFs, but this can't be said to be a thing for 'regular' IFs or, for example the crimson fists who are positively 'nice' in comparison. Then theres the executioners who are 'personal honour' and duel-for-imagined slights obsessed basket cases, never mind the death fetish.

If anything the central theme is 'castles', 'forts' and 'sieges' with the caveat that Battleships and their fleet are often analagous to said castles.

Regarding fulgim - I wouldn't know enough to say, but yeah, I've got nothing against the idea.

*ot, but its something I'm.working on for my fleet-based
primaris chapter. Leaning towards white scars, possibly space wolves and the curonians (baltic vikings) as a historical source. Its interesting to conceive different ways of presenting what space wolf geneseed can do - in the same manner of how IF geneseed can create such radically different characteristics in its offshoots.

For example, I'm toying with notions of 'the rout' (pre-russ sixth legion) and how they could be directed (by someone else) without the cartoon-viking theatrics of fenris and what it could manifest in terms of character for a chapter.

Yes, commissars totally fit.
The Imperium just isn't the Holy Roman Empire in space, it is a pastiche of ALL oppressive regimes.
So you have a bit of the Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Empire during its inquisitorial and Wars of Religion days, you have a bit of the Soviet Union and you have a bit of the Third Reich and since its a British IP from the 1980s, a bit of Thatcher.

To put it crudely, The Imperium is what happens if you take the Holy Roman Empire, industrialize them without the Age of Enlightenment, ramp up the fanaticism and show them the works of several extremist 19th-20th century philosophers and political thinkers.

Having a bunch of blokes in fancy coats aping Stalin's Orders 227 and 270 definitely fits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
The Roman Empire does have a huge impact on the 40k lore (as big as the medieval era in my opinion), but it is framed in a manner that feels familiar to Brits with the way we are taught history- the shining Roman empire collapsing and giving way to the medieval dark ages.

The Imperium during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy heavily references the Roman empire, the principal military forces are even legions at the command of the Emperor. The later Imperium carries vestiges of this, with people harking back to the early days to shore up their own authority (similar to, for example, the Holy Roman Empire or Sultanate of Rum).

This does what references are supposed to do- provide a cultural shorthand metaphor for understanding the themes of the setting- hope dashed into despair. As 40k was made in Nottingham, England, it naturally uses references familiar to its creators and target audience of the time. If 40k had originated elsewhere, its main references would be different in keeping with those cultures.

I get that, and don't discount it, but, really, I think that the closer fit is to the HRE, and, if anybody specifically, Charlemagne and his paladins, rather than the ancient Roman Empire. I see a lot more of the paladins in the primarchs than I do any parallel to the Roman Empire. I think I even see a little of Horus in Ganelon.

If you want toe drag it across the English Channel, Arthur, the Knights of the Round Table and Mordred, but certainly after the fall of Rome, with the Emperor trying to rebuild it.

My thoughts.

I mean, the Imperium is supposed to be the 40k analogue to the Empire from Warhammer Fantasy, which was inspired by the HRE. Its just that in 40k fashion they heavily industrialized it and made it grimdark.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yes, commissars totally fit.
The Imperium just isn't the Holy Roman Empire in space, it is a pastiche of ALL oppressive regimes.
So you have a bit of the Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Empire during its inquisitorial and Wars of Religion days, you have a bit of the Soviet Union and you have a bit of the Third Reich and since its a British IP from the 1980s, a bit of Thatcher.

To put it crudely, The Imperium is what happens if you take the Holy Roman Empire, industrialize them without the Age of Enlightenment, ramp up the fanaticism and show them the works of several extremist 19th-20th century philosophers and political thinkers.

Having a bunch of blokes in fancy coats aping Stalin's Orders 227 and 270 definitely fits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
The Roman Empire does have a huge impact on the 40k lore (as big as the medieval era in my opinion), but it is framed in a manner that feels familiar to Brits with the way we are taught history- the shining Roman empire collapsing and giving way to the medieval dark ages.

The Imperium during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy heavily references the Roman empire, the principal military forces are even legions at the command of the Emperor. The later Imperium carries vestiges of this, with people harking back to the early days to shore up their own authority (similar to, for example, the Holy Roman Empire or Sultanate of Rum).

This does what references are supposed to do- provide a cultural shorthand metaphor for understanding the themes of the setting- hope dashed into despair. As 40k was made in Nottingham, England, it naturally uses references familiar to its creators and target audience of the time. If 40k had originated elsewhere, its main references would be different in keeping with those cultures.

I get that, and don't discount it, but, really, I think that the closer fit is to the HRE, and, if anybody specifically, Charlemagne and his paladins, rather than the ancient Roman Empire. I see a lot more of the paladins in the primarchs than I do any parallel to the Roman Empire. I think I even see a little of Horus in Ganelon.

If you want toe drag it across the English Channel, Arthur, the Knights of the Round Table and Mordred, but certainly after the fall of Rome, with the Emperor trying to rebuild it.

My thoughts.

I mean, the Imperium is supposed to be the 40k analogue to the Empire from Warhammer Fantasy, which was inspired by the HRE. Its just that in 40k fashion they heavily industrialized it and made it grimdark.

Bingo and spot on, at least from my perspective.

Really, I don't believe too much thought went in to all of this when it was created. My guess is, "hey, we got some science fiction figures here. What if we added in some orcs and dwarves and..." again, not trying to discount either WH or WH40K, but I know that's the way I've done a lot of my gaming over the years. "Well, We've got a bunch of LOTRs goblins, and some Starship Troopers figures. So what if we say the Starship Troopers landed on a primitive planet of short aliens with spears, and..."

To be honest, I think that's probably about the level of the original games. Only after GW became big and commercialized and volumes got written...

YMMV

I mean that's exactly what happened though. Modern 40k isn't the one that started when GW was a shop that sold DnD and 2000AD but the roots are there.
But it's still got a lot of its own charm and honestly, the references and inspirations enhance that IMO.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
If you think about it, they really are out of place.

This is a world based on something resembling the late middle ages with massive overtones of the early renaissance. The Imperial Cult is the Catholic Church. NOTE: I AM NOT TRYING TO BE INSULTING HERE. It is certainly the institution out of which the Inquisition arose, and as an organization, it did what was seen as necessary to fight the Muslims -aliens from without- and protestants -heretics from within- to preserve what was seen as the divine order so please, lets go nowhere down that road, its not the point.

Rather, the point is that all of this stuff is very medieval. In fact, 40k kinda hits you over the head with its medievalness.

Then along comes the commissariat, which is straight up Soviet Russia with big overtones of the SS.

Don't get me wrong. The commissars are a lot of fun. But do they really fit? In a way the Inquisition and the Commissariat somehow both seem to belong, but I'm not sure why I think that. They certainly are very different ages different answers to what is seen as the same problem.

And yet, somehow, I like them both, even though I raise this issue, and I wouldn't junk either one, though I'm not sure why.

Thoughts?

where are you getting middle ages or anything like that outside of a few specific references for the imperium as a whole?

the imperium is a cruel authoritarian dictatorship, commissars and their equivalents in other nations were the tools of authoritarian dictatorships...what doesn't fit?

johnpjones1775 wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
If you think about it, they really are out of place.

This is a world based on something resembling the late middle ages with massive overtones of the early renaissance. The Imperial Cult is the Catholic Church. NOTE: I AM NOT TRYING TO BE INSULTING HERE. It is certainly the institution out of which the Inquisition arose, and as an organization, it did what was seen as necessary to fight the Muslims -aliens from without- and protestants -heretics from within- to preserve what was seen as the divine order so please, lets go nowhere down that road, its not the point.

Rather, the point is that all of this stuff is very medieval. In fact, 40k kinda hits you over the head with its medievalness.

Then along comes the commissariat, which is straight up Soviet Russia with big overtones of the SS.

Don't get me wrong. The commissars are a lot of fun. But do they really fit? In a way the Inquisition and the Commissariat somehow both seem to belong, but I'm not sure why I think that. They certainly are very different ages different answers to what is seen as the same problem.

And yet, somehow, I like them both, even though I raise this issue, and I wouldn't junk either one, though I'm not sure why.

Thoughts?

where are you getting middle ages or anything like that outside of a few specific references for the imperium as a whole?

the imperium is a cruel authoritarian dictatorship, commissars and their equivalents in other nations were the tools of authoritarian dictatorships...what doesn't fit?

With all respect, we just see things too differently for me to meaningfully comment on that assertion.

The Imperium of Man is not one thing. It is many, contradictory things. The Commissar is just one example of those contradictory things.

Codex Imperial Guard (2008) wrote:Univerisally feared, and often hated by those around them, Commissars have the power to summarily execute any trooper or officer found wanting on the field of battle. It is a Commissar's duty to maintain the morale, discipline and fighting spirit of the regiment, and to punish cowardice and incompetence wherever it is found.

Talk about a contradictory role. The beating will continue until morale improves!

The Commissar is another example of the trust the Imperium of Man places in its soldiers and officers. "We trust you will get your job done with courage and valor. Ignore that guy in the coat with the Bolt Pistol. He's just here to improve morale and efficiency."

 alextroy wrote:
The Imperium of Man is not one thing. It is many, contradictory things. The Commissar is just one example of those contradictory things.

I wouldn't say it is contradictory but exists as its own island: the concept is there, it is just strange that it is supposed to work in a world where a bolt round in the head is usually a quick and easy way out compared to the alternatives like getting your soul munched by daemons. So in the context of the setting, the Commissar is not punishing the guardsmen, he is mercy-killing them. But then as per the lore he is clearly punishing them, so how the hell should I imagine it? Do the guardsmen really fear getting headshot by a dude in a sharp dress more than unspeakable eternal torment by whatever galactic horror they are facing?

 AtoMaki wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The Imperium of Man is not one thing. It is many, contradictory things. The Commissar is just one example of those contradictory things.

I wouldn't say it is contradictory but exists as its own island: the concept is there, it is just strange that it is supposed to work in a world where a bolt round in the head is usually a quick and easy way out compared to the alternatives like getting your soul munched by daemons. So in the context of the setting, the Commissar is not punishing the guardsmen, he is mercy-killing them. But then as per the lore he is clearly punishing them, so how the hell should I imagine it? Do the guardsmen really fear getting headshot by a dude in a sharp dress more than unspeakable eternal torment by whatever galactic horror they are facing?

Well, Commissars do have other punishments available.

I think the main thing though is guaranteed death from the Commissar vs probable death from the foe. Guard units do still retreat against orders sometimes, so clearly the Commissars sometimes fail. Even a Krieg regiment was noted to break during the Vraks war and lynched their Commissars- the survivors were sentenced to a penal legion or executed.

I don't think the average trooper knows what threat a daemon actually holds beyond the instinctive dread they instil. A bolt round to the head of the one faltering most seems to be used as a way to focus minds.

The 13th Penal Legion books highlight this interaction very well IMO.

 Haighus wrote:
I think the main thing though is guaranteed death from the Commissar vs probable death from the foe.

By the time the Commissar starts shooting people that death is not probable but imminent. And I don't think many Guardsman would look at an Ork and unironically think that the beast would only shower them with hugs or something if you know what I mean. But again, I'm willing to accept it as a kind of feature.

With the Krieg, Commissars are there to do the same job they are in a normal Regiment, enforce the orders of the commanding officer, and punish those who disobey.
Kriegers generally don't do most of the things regular Guardsmen would get punishment detail for like laziness, use of banned or restricted substances, and blasphemy. Kriegers get in hot water because they are zealously suicidal to a man and Commissars ironically step in when Kriegers don't retreat. They often have to remind their charges that their lives belong to the Emperor and it is not their right to waste those lives in a last stand when they can be made useful elsewhere.

AtoMaki wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
I think the main thing though is guaranteed death from the Commissar vs probable death from the foe.

By the time the Commissar starts shooting people that death is not probable but imminent. And I don't think many Guardsman would look at an Ork and unironically think that the beast would only shower them with hugs or something if you know what I mean. But again, I'm willing to accept it as a kind of feature.

Of course not, but they have the opportunity to kill that Ork first, to win. Whereas the Commissar is standing behind and unlikely to miss... Even if they know winning is impossible, they may be able to accept that a death delaying the Ork attack is aiding colleagues elsewhere, a death at the hands of the Commissar is not. The Imperium is, generally speaking, a religiously-indoctrinated cult and Commissars call out spiritual aspects as much as physical ones.

Gert wrote:With the Krieg, Commissars are there to do the same job they are in a normal Regiment, enforce the orders of the commanding officer, and punish those who disobey.
Kriegers generally don't do most of the things regular Guardsmen would get punishment detail for like laziness, use of banned or restricted substances, and blasphemy. Kriegers get in hot water because they are zealously suicidal to a man and Commissars ironically step in when Kriegers don't retreat. They often have to remind their charges that their lives belong to the Emperor and it is not their right to waste those lives in a last stand when they can be made useful elsewhere.

Yes, but even the Krieg will still break and fall back against orders on occasion, just at a lower rate than most other regiments. Commissars fulfil their more common purpose in these cases.

The Vraks example is an entire DKoK regimental attack (as many as 200,000 guardsmen) breaking in the face of enemy fire, and resulted in the entire surviving regiment being punished for their failure.

Yeah, that's why I said often not always.

I think OP is confusing the role of the Inqusiition with that of what it is based on .

It’s also worth noting that over time in the 40K universe that the role of the Inqusition has experienced very definitive mission creep.

The commissar similarly shares the name of that role in the soviet army but that is far from the first discipline role in history.

The Commissar is there primarily to be a moral example and stern hand on the shoulder of the unit, and only if necessary, to shoot 'cowards' in the back.

Yes. Commissars do serve a role.

However, terrible writers are to blame for making them look like complete dick-headed idiots who keep blamming people for no good reason, including those off their jurisdictions.

Just look up Ibram Gaunt or Yarrick and you will see how Commissars are supposed to role. Cain is just for comedy.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

johnpjones1775 wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
If you think about it, they really are out of place.

This is a world based on something resembling the late middle ages with massive overtones of the early renaissance. The Imperial Cult is the Catholic Church. NOTE: I AM NOT TRYING TO BE INSULTING HERE. It is certainly the institution out of which the Inquisition arose, and as an organization, it did what was seen as necessary to fight the Muslims -aliens from without- and protestants -heretics from within- to preserve what was seen as the divine order so please, lets go nowhere down that road, its not the point.

Rather, the point is that all of this stuff is very medieval. In fact, 40k kinda hits you over the head with its medievalness.

Then along comes the commissariat, which is straight up Soviet Russia with big overtones of the SS.

Don't get me wrong. The commissars are a lot of fun. But do they really fit? In a way the Inquisition and the Commissariat somehow both seem to belong, but I'm not sure why I think that. They certainly are very different ages different answers to what is seen as the same problem.

And yet, somehow, I like them both, even though I raise this issue, and I wouldn't junk either one, though I'm not sure why.

Thoughts?

where are you getting middle ages or anything like that outside of a few specific references for the imperium as a whole?

the imperium is a cruel authoritarian dictatorship, commissars and their equivalents in other nations were the tools of authoritarian dictatorships...what doesn't fit?

With all respect, we just see things too differently for me to meaningfully comment on that assertion.

What? I asked where you’re getting Middle Ages. You can’t explain that?
Or do you disagree with my statement that imperium is an authoritarian dictatorship and commissars and other similar political officers have been used by every authoritarian dictatorship ever?

I’m really confused.

The feudal allegiance structure is medieval. Goverors by grace. Ad-Mech as church structure outside but supporting. Orders of space marines being semi-independant aswell as their medieval equivalents.

johnpjones1775 wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

johnpjones1775 wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
If you think about it, they really are out of place.

This is a world based on something resembling the late middle ages with massive overtones of the early renaissance. The Imperial Cult is the Catholic Church. NOTE: I AM NOT TRYING TO BE INSULTING HERE. It is certainly the institution out of which the Inquisition arose, and as an organization, it did what was seen as necessary to fight the Muslims -aliens from without- and protestants -heretics from within- to preserve what was seen as the divine order so please, lets go nowhere down that road, its not the point.

Rather, the point is that all of this stuff is very medieval. In fact, 40k kinda hits you over the head with its medievalness.

Then along comes the commissariat, which is straight up Soviet Russia with big overtones of the SS.

Don't get me wrong. The commissars are a lot of fun. But do they really fit? In a way the Inquisition and the Commissariat somehow both seem to belong, but I'm not sure why I think that. They certainly are very different ages different answers to what is seen as the same problem.

And yet, somehow, I like them both, even though I raise this issue, and I wouldn't junk either one, though I'm not sure why.

Thoughts?

where are you getting middle ages or anything like that outside of a few specific references for the imperium as a whole?

the imperium is a cruel authoritarian dictatorship, commissars and their equivalents in other nations were the tools of authoritarian dictatorships...what doesn't fit?

With all respect, we just see things too differently for me to meaningfully comment on that assertion.

What? I asked where you’re getting Middle Ages. You can’t explain that?
Or do you disagree with my statement that imperium is an authoritarian dictatorship and commissars and other similar political officers have been used by every authoritarian dictatorship ever?

I’m really confused.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but I think I'm running into the color-to-a-blind-man problem. You really don't see where I'm getting middle ages? Inquisition? Swords in space? Goblins, etc.?

Like someone said, Warhammer thematically encompasses A TON of stuff. IG is all about paying tribute to WWII heroes. And yes that includes the Soviet Union.


All I want to know is...with this current war going on, does that mean we'll never see Ice Warriors of Valhalla ever again?

Attempting to shoehorn 40k into "Medieval in space" is a fools errand. It's been a glorious mess of a pastiche from the beginning.

40k is what the writers and designers made it. Fantasy races, WW2 totalitarianism, Medieval Catholicness, 2000AD Judges and their accompanying hopelessness/ruthlessness, a dash of post apocalyptic stylings, etc, etc... It's all in there from the beginning.

Commissars came in early and are one of the great elements of that mix.

To try and define 40k narrowly enough to make commissars seem out of place would eliminate far too many of the other ingredients that make the 40k stew as delicious as it is.

Cadians, in the better iterations of their lore, literally did not have Commissars.

Officers instead were trained to watch for warp taint and authorized to execute cowards on the spot.