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Hellfire Rounds (along with Kraken Rounds and Dragonfire Rounds) are terms with meaning within the setting, Dudeface - you don't get to just handwave them away.

And given HBMC's point about lasweapons apparently working with the strat, I'd love to hear your explanation of how a lasweapon is projecting acid, given the description from within the Hellfire Round strat itself:

Hellfire rounds douse their targets in voracious acids that are utterly lethal to organic life

Similar issues apply to the Kraken Rounds and Dragonfire Rounds - how does a laser manage to have an adamantine core, or explode just before impact to shower the target with gas and flames?

EDIT - Minor formatting tweak, following a copy & paste from the PDF

Tiberias wrote:
It's not as ridiculous as the stern guard thing, but I don't quite get what they are going for with the fights first rule in general.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I understand it if you have fights first and and enemy unit has not, you fight first even if you were charged.
That just straight up makes fight first the most powerful rule to have in the fight phase.

So if you're a melee army, you basically need access to this rule somehow otherwise you are at a severe disadvantage against any army with a powerful unit that can geht fight first (like any space marine unit that can have a judiciar leading it for example).

Just on face value that doesn't seem like good rule design to be honest.

I took a quick peek at the units a Judy can join and it seems to me that a tough vehicle or monster unit won't need to worry much about the opponent fighting first. A Brutalis Dreadnaught, a Bloodthirster, or a Soulgrinder would likely shrug off the couple of wounds that actually got through. The Brutalis could kill 2 or 3 by merit of shooting and its MW charge ability before they even got to fight first.

 Dysartes wrote:
Hellfire Rounds (along with Kraken Rounds and Dragonfire Rounds) are terms with meaning within the setting, Dudeface - you don't get to just handwave them away.

And given HBMC's point about lasweapons apparently working with the strat, I'd love to hear your explanation of how a lasweapon is projecting acid, given the description from within the Hellfire Round strat itself:

Hellfire rounds douse their targets in voracious acids that are utterly lethal to organic life

Similar issues apply to the Kraken Rounds and Dragonfire Rounds - how does a laser manage to have an adamantine core, or explode just before impact to shower the target with gas and flames?

EDIT - Minor formatting tweak, following a copy & paste from the PDF

Yes, but EviscerationPlague is the first to tell people to stop being attached to names and just use vanguard vets for death company etc. I was highlighting thr hypocrisy of that.

Irrespective of the in-setting relevance of the name, its utterly detached from the effect. So if the name shouldn't be hand waved away, it needs renaming.

 Dysartes wrote:
Hellfire Rounds (along with Kraken Rounds and Dragonfire Rounds) are terms with meaning within the setting, Dudeface - you don't get to just handwave them away.

And given HBMC's point about lasweapons apparently working with the strat, I'd love to hear your explanation of how a lasweapon is projecting acid, given the description from within the Hellfire Round strat itself:

Hellfire rounds douse their targets in voracious acids that are utterly lethal to organic life

Similar issues apply to the Kraken Rounds and Dragonfire Rounds - how does a laser manage to have an adamantine core, or explode just before impact to shower the target with gas and flames?

EDIT - Minor formatting tweak, following a copy & paste from the PDF

Load a Hellfire cartridge that is propelled along the laser beam. Beam punches a hole, capsule delivers Hellfire substance ito the target in a horrid messy manner, exploding out and showering nearby unfortunates too. Or a secondary pulse detonates the capsule in an airburst to grizzly effect.

Before you tell me that’s daft look up how needlers work in-universe.

Not defending any rules-writing, just saying you can plausibly technobabble almost anything away in the 40K universe and keep with lore precedent.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Hellfire Rounds (along with Kraken Rounds and Dragonfire Rounds) are terms with meaning within the setting, Dudeface - you don't get to just handwave them away.

And given HBMC's point about lasweapons apparently working with the strat, I'd love to hear your explanation of how a lasweapon is projecting acid, given the description from within the Hellfire Round strat itself:

Hellfire rounds douse their targets in voracious acids that are utterly lethal to organic life

Similar issues apply to the Kraken Rounds and Dragonfire Rounds - how does a laser manage to have an adamantine core, or explode just before impact to shower the target with gas and flames?

EDIT - Minor formatting tweak, following a copy & paste from the PDF

Load a Hellfire cartridge that is propelled along the laser beam. Beam punches a hole, capsule delivers Hellfire substance ito the target in a horrid messy manner, exploding out and showering nearby unfortunates too. Or a secondary pulse detonates the capsule in an airburst to grizzly effect.

Before you tell me that’s daft look up how needlers work in-universe.

Not defending any rules-writing, just saying you can plausibly technobabble almost anything away in the 40K universe and keep with lore precedent.

This is the reason people need to consider rules at a rules level without prior experience on unconscious bias from previous editions going into these things, the fluff wording and name can change, the point of the thread and the issue at hand is how one rule interacts with another, isolated from what things used to do or what the little fluff blurb says.

How to fix Deathwatch:
1. Special Rounds only affect Bolt weapons
2. All combi-weapons return to being bolter+special weapon (perhaps even one shot special like back in 5th) instead of the ugly monstrosity that they are now

I can see 1 happening but not 2. That design choice looks locked in across multiple factions.

And it's a horrible design choice across multiple factions

Dudeface wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Hellfire Rounds (along with Kraken Rounds and Dragonfire Rounds) are terms with meaning within the setting, Dudeface - you don't get to just handwave them away.

And given HBMC's point about lasweapons apparently working with the strat, I'd love to hear your explanation of how a lasweapon is projecting acid, given the description from within the Hellfire Round strat itself:

Hellfire rounds douse their targets in voracious acids that are utterly lethal to organic life

Similar issues apply to the Kraken Rounds and Dragonfire Rounds - how does a laser manage to have an adamantine core, or explode just before impact to shower the target with gas and flames?

EDIT - Minor formatting tweak, following a copy & paste from the PDF

Load a Hellfire cartridge that is propelled along the laser beam. Beam punches a hole, capsule delivers Hellfire substance ito the target in a horrid messy manner, exploding out and showering nearby unfortunates too. Or a secondary pulse detonates the capsule in an airburst to grizzly effect.

Before you tell me that’s daft look up how needlers work in-universe.

Not defending any rules-writing, just saying you can plausibly technobabble almost anything away in the 40K universe and keep with lore precedent.

This is the reason people need to consider rules at a rules level without prior experience on unconscious bias from previous editions going into these things, the fluff wording and name can change, the point of the thread and the issue at hand is how one rule interacts with another, isolated from what things used to do or what the little fluff blurb says.

There is an easy solution to this whole mess: call the rule by a different name. The background has meaning, so naming a rule with reference to a specific aspect of it, while completely messing said reference up by rules interactions is... just bad design.

so, the goonhammer guys discuss just changing the hellfire rounds strat so it only causes regular wounds, rather than Critical Wounds, which would be the quickest way to shut down that specific exploit, and still leave the deathwatch with a powerful strat that's not totally broken..

 Darnok wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Hellfire Rounds (along with Kraken Rounds and Dragonfire Rounds) are terms with meaning within the setting, Dudeface - you don't get to just handwave them away.

And given HBMC's point about lasweapons apparently working with the strat, I'd love to hear your explanation of how a lasweapon is projecting acid, given the description from within the Hellfire Round strat itself:

Hellfire rounds douse their targets in voracious acids that are utterly lethal to organic life

Similar issues apply to the Kraken Rounds and Dragonfire Rounds - how does a laser manage to have an adamantine core, or explode just before impact to shower the target with gas and flames?

EDIT - Minor formatting tweak, following a copy & paste from the PDF

Load a Hellfire cartridge that is propelled along the laser beam. Beam punches a hole, capsule delivers Hellfire substance ito the target in a horrid messy manner, exploding out and showering nearby unfortunates too. Or a secondary pulse detonates the capsule in an airburst to grizzly effect.

Before you tell me that’s daft look up how needlers work in-universe.

Not defending any rules-writing, just saying you can plausibly technobabble almost anything away in the 40K universe and keep with lore precedent.

This is the reason people need to consider rules at a rules level without prior experience on unconscious bias from previous editions going into these things, the fluff wording and name can change, the point of the thread and the issue at hand is how one rule interacts with another, isolated from what things used to do or what the little fluff blurb says.

There is an easy solution to this whole mess: call the rule by a different name. The background has meaning, so naming a rule with reference to a specific aspect of it, while completely messing said reference up by rules interactions is... just bad design.

Gotta agree, even just "specialist ammo" or "xeno hunter ammo" would have triggered less people, doesn't exactly solve the problem though unless people are more upset about a laser firing a hellfire round than the fact DW can spew out 90ish MW a turn?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, the goonhammer guys discuss just changing the hellfire rounds strat so it only causes regular wounds, rather than Critical Wounds, which would be the quickest way to shut down that specific exploit, and still leave the deathwatch with a powerful strat that's not totally broken..

Seems a good answer!

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

 Darnok wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Hellfire Rounds (along with Kraken Rounds and Dragonfire Rounds) are terms with meaning within the setting, Dudeface - you don't get to just handwave them away.

And given HBMC's point about lasweapons apparently working with the strat, I'd love to hear your explanation of how a lasweapon is projecting acid, given the description from within the Hellfire Round strat itself:

Hellfire rounds douse their targets in voracious acids that are utterly lethal to organic life

Similar issues apply to the Kraken Rounds and Dragonfire Rounds - how does a laser manage to have an adamantine core, or explode just before impact to shower the target with gas and flames?

EDIT - Minor formatting tweak, following a copy & paste from the PDF

Load a Hellfire cartridge that is propelled along the laser beam. Beam punches a hole, capsule delivers Hellfire substance ito the target in a horrid messy manner, exploding out and showering nearby unfortunates too. Or a secondary pulse detonates the capsule in an airburst to grizzly effect.

Before you tell me that’s daft look up how needlers work in-universe.

Not defending any rules-writing, just saying you can plausibly technobabble almost anything away in the 40K universe and keep with lore precedent.

This is the reason people need to consider rules at a rules level without prior experience on unconscious bias from previous editions going into these things, the fluff wording and name can change, the point of the thread and the issue at hand is how one rule interacts with another, isolated from what things used to do or what the little fluff blurb says.

There is an easy solution to this whole mess: call the rule by a different name. The background has meaning, so naming a rule with reference to a specific aspect of it, while completely messing said reference up by rules interactions is... just bad design.

Gotta agree, even just "specialist ammo" or "xeno hunter ammo" would have triggered less people, doesn't exactly solve the problem though unless people are more upset about a laser firing a hellfire round than the fact DW can spew out 90ish MW a turn?

No, the underlying rules issue would be the same of course. And it definitely needs adressing.

I assume it will get either a day 1 "patch" or be on the top of the list for the first balance update GW seems to be doing regularly these days. So there is a good chance this will not stay an issue for too long.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Isn't the usual approach to MW problems just to put a cap on how many mortals can be generated?

That works when the mortal wounds are produced 'in addition to' or in accordance with a set number of dice. These MW interrupt the combat sequence and so limiting the total would be super awkward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I love that Hellfire rounds can be used with Las-weaponry.

Well done to whomever came up with that.

Yea. It's weird. On the one hand it's simple so no unit is singled out, but on the other it makes for some weird or broken gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, the goonhammer guys discuss just changing the hellfire rounds strat so it only causes regular wounds, rather than Critical Wounds, which would be the quickest way to shut down that specific exploit, and still leave the deathwatch with a powerful strat that's not totally broken..

I'm not keen on making an exception to the core rules so quickly.

With Nids resurrecting extra units with Hive Tyrants the damage might be needed sometimes. It just isn't needed in such quantity.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
And it's a horrible design choice across multiple factions

What, why? I get that people don't like it because flavor or they like the specifics of specific weapons. But from a design perspective, what makes it horrible?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
How to fix Deathwatch:
1. Special Rounds only affect Bolt weapons
2. All combi-weapons return to being bolter+special weapon (perhaps even one shot special like back in 5th) instead of the ugly monstrosity that they are now

They missed a trick by not rolling out some sort of [Basic] keyword for weapons and having certain stratagems/boosts only affect [Basic] weapons.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
How to fix Deathwatch:
1. Special Rounds only affect Bolt weapons
2. All combi-weapons return to being bolter+special weapon (perhaps even one shot special like back in 5th) instead of the ugly monstrosity that they are now

They missed a trick by not rolling out some sort of [Basic] keyword for weapons and having certain stratagems/boosts only affect [Basic] weapons.

They've had a few places where they've missed out on making basic keywords i.e. BIOLOGICAL and MECHANICAL (Poison, Haywire) and others since the introduction of keywords.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
How to fix Deathwatch:
1. Special Rounds only affect Bolt weapons

so nothing changes with sternguard....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
And it's a horrible design choice across multiple factions

What, why? I get that people don't like it because flavor or they like the specifics of specific weapons. But from a design perspective, what makes it horrible?

because combis werent all anti-infantry.
a better fix wouldve been

"X models in this unit can take a Bolter and a weapons from the special weapons list (melta/plasma/flamer/grav)"

Voss wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
And it's a horrible design choice across multiple factions

What, why? I get that people don't like it because flavor or they like the specifics of specific weapons. But from a design perspective, what makes it horrible?

Because easily accessable and spammable [Devastating][Anti-] shouldn't be a thing. Loyalist and Chaos Marines particularly (but also Orks if kombis get the same treatment) have multiple ways they can spam full units worth of them. Sure, you can point combis to be high points cost to compensate, but as can been seen here with Deathwatch that still limits the design space for any syngergies that you might want to combine with Critical Wounds.

[Devastating] should be rarer and not able to be efficiently spammed en-masse in the one unit or on the one model.

Outside of that, there's also the anti-synergy (as opposed to [Anti-] synergy ) of rolling in weapons that used to have distinct roles into one awkward anti-infantry weapon when their existing units were more anti-vehicle or anti-monster.

Then there's also the awkwardness of all the Marine named characters that now have special named combies that have the keywords of the new combis but otherwise has the profile of the special weapon. Sure, there's no reason why their profile had to be the exact same as the rest of the combis. If the nature of Azrael's combi-plasma acting like a plasma weapon is so important to its essence, or Tycho's combi-melta acting like a melta for that matter, why not all other combis?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
How to fix Deathwatch:
1. Special Rounds only affect Bolt weapons

so nothing changes with sternguard....

It was a two-step plan for a reason

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
And it's a horrible design choice across multiple factions

What, why? I get that people don't like it because flavor or they like the specifics of specific weapons. But from a design perspective, what makes it horrible?

Because easily accessable and spammable [Devastating][Anti-] shouldn't be a thing. Loyalist and Chaos Marines particularly (but also Orks if kombis get the same treatment) have multiple ways they can spam full units worth of them. Sure, you can point combis to be high points cost to compensate, but as can been seen here with Deathwatch that still limits the design space for any syngergies that you might want to combine with Critical Wounds.

[Devastating] should be rarer and not able to be efficiently spammed en-masse in the one unit or on the one model.

Devastating combo-ing with Anti-X is actually the point, that's how it functions and limits targets. With reasonable numbers and restrictions (ie, outside deathwatch) it isn't actually a problem.

The deathwatch issue is spreading it too wide, to inappropriate weapons, and setting the number far too low (2+ shouldn't be happening on this scale).
A unit of 10 sternguard, for example, is firing 20 shots at close range, missing half, then wounding with half of those, ending up with 5 MW on their target. That's... moderately ok. In many, many cases, their bolt rifle is better.

Outside of that, there's also the anti-synergy (as opposed to [Anti-] synergy ) of rolling in weapons that used to have distinct roles into one awkward anti-infantry weapon when their existing units were more anti-vehicle or anti-monster.

That isn't anti-synergy. There isn't 'synergy' in 'that's how it used to be.' That's a deliberate design change.
The anti-infantry weapon may not be what people wanted, but it isn't awkward. Its very straightforward: 50% of wounds just skip to the end of the attack process and just work. But it also has a relative penalty to hit, so you aren't generating large numbers of wound rolls.

Anyone spotted any crazy stuff in the Chaos releases yet?

Well I noticed the defiler's twin las is S9.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Well I noticed the defiler's twin las is S9.

Whoops. I guess someone forgot what edition this was. They really need to hire someone to proofread.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Because easily accessable and spammable [Devastating][Anti-] shouldn't be a thing.

I'm inclined to think the issue is really just that the two keywords multiply together in a way that others don't.

Change [Anti-] to just be that you never wound on worse than that value- with only 6s counting as Critical Wounds as normal- and the problem goes away. It's still powerful, but only in a linearly-increasing way.

 catbarf wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Because easily accessable and spammable [Devastating][Anti-] shouldn't be a thing.

I'm inclined to think the issue is really just that the two keywords multiply together in a way that others don't.

Change [Anti-] to just be that you never wound on worse than that value- with only 6s counting as Critical Wounds as normal- and the problem goes away. It's still powerful, but only in a linearly-increasing way.

That breaks the design of stuff like Haywire though. The interaction is fine - it broke when they let you lay it on to anything without regard for that particular weapon design. I think the once per battle restriction could work just fine so people don't lean into it too much, but it's still a tool.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Because easily accessable and spammable [Devastating][Anti-] shouldn't be a thing.

I'm inclined to think the issue is really just that the two keywords multiply together in a way that others don't.

Change [Anti-] to just be that you never wound on worse than that value- with only 6s counting as Critical Wounds as normal- and the problem goes away. It's still powerful, but only in a linearly-increasing way.

That breaks the design of stuff like Haywire though. The interaction is fine - it broke when they let you lay it on to anything without regard for that particular weapon design. I think the once per battle restriction could work just fine so people don't lean into it too much, but it's still a tool.

Yeah the issue is not Anti+Devastating or even Anti 2+ and Devastating, the issue is Anti 2+ and Devastation out the wazoo.

Voss wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
And it's a horrible design choice across multiple factions

What, why? I get that people don't like it because flavor or they like the specifics of specific weapons. But from a design perspective, what makes it horrible?

Because easily accessable and spammable [Devastating][Anti-] shouldn't be a thing. Loyalist and Chaos Marines particularly (but also Orks if kombis get the same treatment) have multiple ways they can spam full units worth of them. Sure, you can point combis to be high points cost to compensate, but as can been seen here with Deathwatch that still limits the design space for any syngergies that you might want to combine with Critical Wounds.

[Devastating] should be rarer and not able to be efficiently spammed en-masse in the one unit or on the one model.

Devastating combo-ing with Anti-X is actually the point, that's how it functions and limits targets. With reasonable numbers and restrictions (ie, outside deathwatch) it isn't actually a problem.

The deathwatch issue is spreading it too wide, to inappropriate weapons, and setting the number far too low (2+ shouldn't be happening on this scale).
A unit of 10 sternguard, for example, is firing 20 shots at close range, missing half, then wounding with half of those, ending up with 5 MW on their target. That's... moderately ok. In many, many cases, their bolt rifle is better.

That's... that's literally my point? I didn't say it shouldn't be a thing at all, I said it shouldn't be spammable.

Outside of that, there's also the anti-synergy (as opposed to [Anti-] synergy ) of rolling in weapons that used to have distinct roles into one awkward anti-infantry weapon when their existing units were more anti-vehicle or anti-monster.

That isn't anti-synergy. There isn't 'synergy' in 'that's how it used to be.' That's a deliberate design change.
The anti-infantry weapon may not be what people wanted, but it isn't awkward. Its very straightforward: 50% of wounds just skip to the end of the attack process and just work. But it also has a relative penalty to hit, so you aren't generating large numbers of wound rolls.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this part.

First, I am in the camp that likes what I am seeing of 10th so far (I don't care about weapon consolidation etc.)

However, this issue raised (i.e. the hellfire rounds) to me is indicative of a real problem with 10th. [Devastating wounds] is far to pervasive in the game. Especially with how it works with [Anti-X]. Way to many weapons have [Devastating wounds] and so far there seems to be multiple ways to hand it out to units. This is especially problematic with units that have many shots, like sternguard. Also [Devastating wounds] on really big guns also make them really good against infantry, as MW spill over. This is an ability I would personally not have put into the game except exceedingly rare, and if they wanted something to improve with a crit wound roll I would have had rending (-1 ap, which funny enough some units like Rubrics with an icon actually get), or even Devastating wound ="saves cannot be take against this wound" which would prevent the spill over issue.

I don't think GW is going to have to just fix the Hellfire rounds, I think [Devastating wounds] in general is going to need to be reduced.

It is also funny because I thought [Lethal Hits] being so prevasive would be the bigger issued, but with less ap to go around, plus abundant cover, I think it is less of an issue.

Just my thoughts.

Yea, I get the feeling that everyone is going to have a cover save most of the time.

It's going to take them a couple of passes at least to get back to where 9th is...if codexes don't tip the apple cart. I just hope the crazy stuff is dealt with quickly. I don't want to play against nothing but "Deathwatch".

I'm not sure how you would fix DW though without it benefitting models with an invuln more though?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea, I get the feeling that everyone is going to have a cover save most of the time.

It's going to take them a couple of passes at least to get back to where 9th is...if codexes don't tip the apple cart. I just hope the crazy stuff is dealt with quickly. I don't want to play against nothing but "Deathwatch".

I'm not sure how you would fix DW though without it benefitting models with an invuln more though?

Just cap the number of Assault Cannons in Killteams, make Hellfire rounds only affect one Killteam and make it one use per battle and 2CP. It can be good, it just shouldn't be the obviously dominating strategy for the whole faction.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea, I get the feeling that everyone is going to have a cover save most of the time.

And/Or FNP. I get the feeling they're trying to introduce Regular, High AP for Invulns, and Mortals for FNP as three different "mechanics" for driving damage.

It's going to take them a couple of passes at least to get back to where 9th is...if codexes don't tip the apple cart. I just hope the crazy stuff is dealt with quickly. I don't want to play against nothing but "Deathwatch".

I'm not sure how you would fix DW though without it benefitting models with an invuln more though?