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With the rules and points out, what are people thinking for Tau? I am currently trying to decide how worthwhile fireblades and ethereals are...

One thing I did notice so far, is that firewarrior and breacher squads seemed pricey. And then I realized they get the -1 to wound from the guardian drone, so that seems like it should just be part of their datasheets.

My first list is a quick sketch based on what I have around:



And while typing that I realized that characters get free drones as well, so I really want to fit a 3rd fireblade in for the other breacher squad. But it seems like getting too greedy would leave too many squads wanting to be guided and not enough to observe...

Ethereals are alright. I was considering strikes with an ethereal. Two shields on eth guardian drone and marker for strikes.

I'd take drone ports over devil fish. You get way more fire power and protect a unit at the same time. Plus drone defenders is just good. Free shots at every unit within 20".

I'm actually debating basing my core troops around them. You lose guidance but I think it's a fair trade if you can get the drone port moved up center. Strikes and a marksman embarked gives 10 pulse rifles and 3 long shot pulse rifle shots. It's a lot of fire power and the port costs less than the cost of a devilfish.

With how it's worded I don't think a fire blade is the better option over the marksman because it transfers weapon profiles to the drone port so it's not actually part of the fire blades unit so no bonus shots.

It will force your opponent to either ignore the troop and get shot at or waste some high strength shots that should have gone to a riptide or hammerhead.

I'm liking sunsharks. Mortal wounds are nice and the load out is decent for the price.

Aun'shi with puretide and a kroot carnivore pack. Two 20 man blobs scout up throw grenade then use the puretide to throw another grenade before they tar pit something. They have scout and stealth so it's an annoying unit with cheap bodies. Throw a shaper in the other unit for the base 6+++.

Considering getting into Tau. I have my first 1000 points more or less worked out, mostly built around the Combat Patrol box.

Ethereal
Cadre Fireblade
Ghostkeel
3 Stealth Battlesuits
10 Fire Warriors
10 Pathfinders
1 Hammerhead
1 Sky Ray,
10 Fire Warriors

Wasn't sure if I should maybe add some Kroot for melee defense. The list above is just the Combat Patrol plus models I think look cool.

I don't need a hyper-optimised list. Just opinions on whether the list is decent. I'll figure out the next 1000 points after playing some games.

Thoughts?

Are you running the firewarriors as strikers or breachers? I have always found the extra punch of breachers to be well worth the shorter range, and they use the buff from a fireblade really well.

One thing to note, it might be a typo, or it might be on purpose (shotguns, who needs to aim?) the breachers hit on 3's.

So the loadout I am thinking is Breachers with guardian drone and gun drone, then fireblade with 2 gun drones. Get 30 S6 AP1 shots hitting on 3's and 9 S5 Twin-linked shots. If you target for them (because with that many shots...) you get 25 S6 hits, 4.5 S5 hits. Vs, say a guard squad that is in your way, that is 24 ish Blaster wounds and 4 ish carbine wounds, so 23 dead guard or so. Seems a little overkill, but they can get squads that big, so not too bad.

Then against say, marines, they do same hits, but T4 means only wounding on 3's instead of 2's. Which means 18 ish off objectives or 21 ish on objectives, then the same 4 carbine. With AP that means 9 + 1 or 10 + 1 wounds to marines. Wipe a 5 man squad, not bad for 165 points.

Now, they do only have a 10 inch range, but if you want to move in and actually take objectives that seems like a small price to pay for the fire power they bring to the party.

I don't know how I over looked it. Crisis suits can be brutal as a deep strike unit.


Take 6 XV8 X3 Cyclic Ion Blasters, Shield Gen, X2 Shield drone. T5 6W 3+ 4++
9 Str 8 -2 2D shots

Throw in a XV8 commander for reroll 1s with quad ion and X2 Shield drones.

Guide the unit that's 66 Str 8 -2 2D shots hitting on 3+ rerolling 1s.

Yaktan wrote:
Are you running the firewarriors as strikers or breachers? I have always found the extra punch of breachers to be well worth the shorter range, and they use the buff from a fireblade really well.

I had no preference. Probably Breachers, given your advice. If I had 2 squads, though, maybe 1 of each?

This is just to get 1000 points, so I can play a reasonable game. After running that a couple times, I'll look into tactical choices a bit more.

Basically just wanted enough troops for objectives, and enough heavy stuff to cause chaos. Wasn't really sure about balance at this point, or any particular tactics.

Tidal wall gun rig can take Precision of the Patient Hunter. Making it hit on 4+ for 110 pts it's a pretty efficient str 20 shot. Looks like it will make a great bullet sponge mention Str 20 and watch your opponent waste ordinance on it.

Can the gun rig take enhancements? I thought they were just for Characters?

Yeah, just checked, they are only for characters.

And the cyclic Ion Blasters do look nice, though you will be losing 1 and a half suits to hazardous each time you shoot, since you roll a die for each gun. Let us see what they actually pull off. Accounting for the commander hitting better, we get 59 hits. Which means just under 20 wounds to something big. (More if you spot using stealth suits for the rr1 to wound) With -2 AP you turn a 2+ into a 4+, so with 2 damage you are looking at 18 or 20 wounds to a big target.

I would have to double check, but I think that would reliably put down most big stuff? How many wounds are Wraithknights? I guess the Avatar would be borderline, with the whole half damage thing, though in that case you could not overcharge and still do damage without sacking suits to hazardous. Or just shoot the rest of the army and leave him all lonely...

Yaktan wrote:
Can the gun rig take enhancements? I thought they were just for Characters?

Yeah, just checked, they are only for characters.

Yes I over looked the bottom paragraph. Darn to good to be true..

Yea it just seems with so much T10+ fusion are completely useless. You either have to stack massive neg ap or fire str 12+ weapons. Really puts crisis suits in a weird spot as half the options are useless.

I noticed missile drones are -2 ap so stack up on those for broadsides. Missile drones plasma and heavy rail rifle seem like a good anti tank load out throw in a seeker for good measure.

I was testing it out seems like a Sunshark, Sky ray and Hammerhead can pretty reliably drop a Landraider in one turn. Kinda the base line I've been calculating my anti armored at is T12 16W 2+ Armor
455 pts vs 270 but the bomber is free to shoot at a different target it just softens it up with mortal wounds. Follow up with a seeker missile rack then hammerhead if all goes well you won't need to fire seekers.

Yeah, with free upgrades there is no reason to not max out drones. Though on broadsides I could see an argument for shield drones over missile drones.

Anti-tank is for sure something that does not just show up without some planning. The thing with crisis suits is they get so many shots, I think they can still do some work.

Let us look at a few builds:
Aforementioned CIB, will take out a land raider with a big unit (but just barely...)

Lets look at a fusion build, 3 triple fusion suits (I love Shields, though battlesuit support systems could be good if you are worried about tarpit chaff) and a quad fusion coldstar. (I have all these models, I love suits and hate magnets... ) This will give about 9 hits when guided. So 3 wounds, which means about 3 get through with the AP, so long range is 10.5 damage, short range 16.5 for just over 300 points.

Plasma will do same hits and wounds, but will only get 2 through a 2+ for 6 damage. Tradeoff is better range and reliability vs. 3w dudes at full range.

Missiles will have twice the hits, so 18 or 19, so 6 or so wounds, then 2 or 3 get through depending on save. That low ap really hurts.

Let us compare to the skyray. 2 Tanks for a hair more points that 3+1 suits. Say something not flying, so get 2 hits each. Also wounding on 3's but they do get one re-roll, so lets say 3 missiles wound. That means 2 get through a 2+ with 4.5 damage each for 9 damage. The smart missiles get 6 shots each for 12, 8 hit, 2 ish wound from twin-linked and no AP makes them sad. On the other hand, 12 shots hitting on 5's means 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1-2 dead lighish infantry somewhere else. So we will call it 9 damage, secondary guns are weak on them.

A pair of kitted out Rail Rifle broadsides will have 4 rail rifle, 2 plasma, and 8 missile shots. So 4 attacks hitting on 2's we get 4, then 2 wound since 12 vs 12, AP-4 means we mostly just go through for 9 just from those. Plasma gets 2 shots, 1 hit, half a wound with re-rolls, 2/3 of that or 1/3 get through armor, for a average of 1 (but comes in random chunks of 3). The missiles get 8 shots, 4 hits, 1 wound, for again an average of 1ish after saves and damage.

Broadsides are the winner so far, being noticeably cheaper than the other options, though also being less durable than the skyrays and needing to stay in one spot for full effect.

Fusion suits are still scary, though the 5+ to wound will make them much more swingy. The skyrays and broadsides give reliable long-range punch.

Tau FW data sheets are available and the Munitorum Field Manual has been updated
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/NUbyWNu2bOI74T6p.pdf
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/23/downloadable-datasheets-and-points-for-imperial-armour/

XV9s are nowhere to be found, but I'm confident it is mistake (since they do not have Legend rules either).
The AX-1-0 Tiger Shark at 315 points might be overpowered against everything Titanic.

Good catch I didn't even notice xv-9s missing. Tetras are gonna be good for the re roll hits. At 2 for 80 I might replace my pathfinders with tetras when I'm needing to shave points.

I think the regular tigershark is better you get two swift strikes vs one twin heavy rail. Plus it's cheaper. Drone bay might be useful but I'd probably use the two skyspear racks instead

So, I just came up with a very silly list.

Alpha Strike!

3 Fireblades
2 breachers, 1 strike squad

3x3 Pirahnas
3 Hammerheads
3 Devilfish
2 Sunsharks

The point was to try maximizing seeker missiles while still having some sanity. I mean, I could swap 2 devilfish and carried dudes for 3 Razershaks, but that just seems too silly. Having 3 transports means it actually looks like an almost sane mechanized infantry list, right?

Thought Id aske with people here if this interpretation of FtGG is right. Only observer units cant observe again and that is to stop people from using something that lets them fire again to trigger FtGG more than one time but guided units can observe to so as long as everything share a target everyone but the fist observer unit dont get the +1 to BS?

Or you can leave sanity behind completely and go with

1 x Longstrike
3 x Hammerheads
3 x 3 Piranhas
3 x 2 Remoras (have them!)
2 x Sunshark Bomber
2 x 4 Kroot Hounds
1x 8 Kroot Hounds

Its not a better list, just more missiles 42 of them.

Yaktan wrote:
So, I just came up with a very silly list.

Alpha Strike!

3 Fireblades
2 breachers, 1 strike squad

3x3 Pirahnas
3 Hammerheads
3 Devilfish
2 Sunsharks

The point was to try maximizing seeker missiles while still having some sanity. I mean, I could swap 2 devilfish and carried dudes for 3 Razershaks, but that just seems too silly. Having 3 transports means it actually looks like an almost sane mechanized infantry list, right?

Gaen wrote:
Thought Id aske with people here if this interpretation of FtGG is right. Only observer units cant observe again and that is to stop people from using something that lets them fire again to trigger FtGG more than one time but guided units can observe to so as long as everything share a target everyone but the fist observer unit dont get the +1 to BS?

Nope, FtGG is used by the Shooting unit, and has to pick an observer that is Eligible to shoot. So Bob the riptide shoots at a tank, using some stealth suits as observers. Then Billy the Sunshark wants to shoot, but cannot pick Bob the riptide as an observer, because Bob already shot and is not eligible to shoot anymore.

Interestingly, there is no conditions on what observer units do, they just have to look at the target and can shoot whatever they feel like otherwise.

I'm back on the horse for 10th edition after a dry spell at the end of 9th

What are people thinking about Ghostkeels? They look strong imo but I need to think how I want to play them.
Going to play a few 1k games soon so we'll see.

They do seem worth trying out. Their damage is not huge, but they do have some fun shenanigans. Their defenses and such seem good--Basic tankish stat line, but they have lone operative (no one can target them outside of 12'') and keep the 2-time drone nope! ability to shrug off chosen attacks. Note it is when allocated, which I am pretty sure means that it is after wound, but before saves. Not quite as good as after saves, but since dangerous high-damage weapons tend to have good AP, not that big a loss.

Actually, lets run the stats on them shooting other tanks, use two for comparison to the other stuff I did up thread.

Ion (overcharged): 12 shots, 8 hits, 8/3 so 2 or 3 wounds, AP-2 means 1 or 2 get through for 3 or 6 damage.

Fusion Colliders : 4 shots, 8/3 hit, so 2 or 3 hit. 2/3 wound, so about 2 wounds. Pretty well zap armor, for about 7 damage.

The Fusion blasters: 2 shots, so 1 or so hit. With twin-linked just over 50/50 to wound, again zap armor so 1/2 of 3.5 means 2ish damage.

So anti-tank version is a bit less oomph than the other options (especially broadsides, since you are at almost 3 of those for the same price), and ion sacrifices some anti-tank to be more reliable at hosing heavy infantry and such. On the other hand, deployment shenanigans and lone operative I think will give them surprising utility and tankiness.

Yaktan wrote:

Gaen wrote:
Thought Id aske with people here if this interpretation of FtGG is right. Only observer units cant observe again and that is to stop people from using something that lets them fire again to trigger FtGG more than one time but guided units can observe to so as long as everything share a target everyone but the fist observer unit dont get the +1 to BS?

Nope, FtGG is used by the Shooting unit, and has to pick an observer that is Eligible to shoot. So Bob the riptide shoots at a tank, using some stealth suits as observers. Then Billy the Sunshark wants to shoot, but cannot pick Bob the riptide as an observer, because Bob already shot and is not eligible to shoot anymore.

Interestingly, there is no conditions on what observer units do, they just have to look at the target and can shoot whatever they feel like otherwise.

Found this quote "As clarified in the Rules Commentary (pg. 14), units that have Shot are still considered Eligible to Shoot.". So observers can shoot again and you can chain observers on a target if the guided units shoot first and not the observer?

Where is that in page 14 of the commentary?

Ok, I see how it works. Because the description of the ability is all about pairs working together, it makes it seem like they should be paired up.

However, when you pick a unit, the restrictions on what can observe is:
1. Must be eligible to shoot.
2. Not a fortification, battleshocked, or already an observer.

Note, nothing about guided units there. Now, it might seem that something that shot is not eligible to shoot, but if we look in the core rules at the process of shooting, it is very clear that eligible to shoot means
1. Not advaced
2. Not fallen back

The process of shooting just says that you shoot once with each unit that is eligible to shoot, so does not make them in-eligible.

This is reinforced on page 14 of the rules commentary when talking about units who get to shoot again. They can only shoot again if the are eligible to shoot. Importantly for the case here, the eligibility to shoot is presented as a unit state independent of firing status.

So the idea is you can have Riptide shoot using Stealth Suits as an observer. Then Hammerhead shoots, using Riptide as an observer. This seems weird, but it does appear they have changed the shooting phase rules such that you actually determine eligibility to shoot all at once and then shoot with each unit, instead of old editions where you picked an eligible unit from what you had around, which meant that having shoot removing your eligibility to be picked.

Feels like something that needs a FAQ because the result is not in line with how the ability is described, as pairs of units working together. But maybe they meant for most of the Tau to actually be able to hit the side of a barn?

Yaktan wrote:
Ok, I see how it works. Because the description of the ability is all about pairs working together, it makes it seem like they should be paired up.

However, when you pick a unit, the restrictions on what can observe is:
1. Must be eligible to shoot.
2. Not a fortification, battleshocked, or already an observer.

Note, nothing about guided units there. Now, it might seem that something that shot is not eligible to shoot, but if we look in the core rules at the process of shooting, it is very clear that eligible to shoot means
1. Not advaced
2. Not fallen back

The process of shooting just says that you shoot once with each unit that is eligible to shoot, so does not make them in-eligible.

This is reinforced on page 14 of the rules commentary when talking about units who get to shoot again. They can only shoot again if the are eligible to shoot. Importantly for the case here, the eligibility to shoot is presented as a unit state independent of firing status.

So the idea is you can have Riptide shoot using Stealth Suits as an observer. Then Hammerhead shoots, using Riptide as an observer. This seems weird, but it does appear they have changed the shooting phase rules such that you actually determine eligibility to shoot all at once and then shoot with each unit, instead of old editions where you picked an eligible unit from what you had around, which meant that having shoot removing your eligibility to be picked.

Feels like something that needs a FAQ because the result is not in line with how the ability is described, as pairs of units working together. But maybe they meant for most of the Tau to actually be able to hit the side of a barn?

For the purpose of shooting are they not still a pair even though they have been part of another pair earlier in the phase?

Still you can only get +1 BS for most of your army if you single out an enemy units so the question for optimal play is how many enemy units do you focus on each turn?

Not to mention Markelight for ignore cover, Pathfinder for observing for multiple units and Stealth suits for wound reroll of 1s.

I see, not sure you need to even refer to the designer's commentary (and pretend it has words in it that aren't there). It looks like the basic core rule book shooting rules don't have a line saying "once you shoot you are not eligible to shoot" (unless it is hidden somewhere else).

This also causes an issue for the secondaries that require "actions" as they tend to all be worded like:

some guy who claims he transcribed the mission cards word for word wrote:In your Shooting phase, you can select one or more units from your army that are not Battle-shocked and are eligible to shoot. Until the end of your turn, the units you selected are not eligible to shoot or declare a charge.

So you could become guided, shoot your guns, remain eligible to shoot, observe for another unit, remain eligible to shoot, then start an "action", stop being eligible to shoot. Clownth edition. Very likely to get FAQ'd, but maybe they'll allow it as I suspect many FAQ answers will be buffs/nerfs in disguise. I'm not sure I would try this in a friendly game unless we'd both agreed to cheese it up with the worst RAW takes we could come up with before we started the game.

EightFoldPath wrote:
I see, not sure you need to even refer to the designer's commentary (and pretend it has words in it that aren't there). It looks like the basic core rule book shooting rules don't have a line saying "once you shoot you are not eligible to shoot" (unless it is hidden somewhere else).

This also causes an issue for the secondaries that require "actions" as they tend to all be worded like:

some guy who claims he transcribed the mission cards word for word wrote:In your Shooting phase, you can select one or more units from your army that are not Battle-shocked and are eligible to shoot. Until the end of your turn, the units you selected are not eligible to shoot or declare a charge.

So you could become guided, shoot your guns, remain eligible to shoot, observe for another unit, remain eligible to shoot, then start an "action", stop being eligible to shoot. Clownth edition. Very likely to get FAQ'd, but maybe they'll allow it as I suspect many FAQ answers will be buffs/nerfs in disguise. I'm not sure I would try this in a friendly game unless we'd both agreed to cheese it up with the worst RAW takes we could come up with before we started the game.

How is it cheese, one has a rule that says you are not eligible to shoot and the other does not?

The cheese is doing all three of:
- Shooting while Guided.
- Observing.
- Actioning.
But only if you do it in that specific order.

From the context of FTGG talking about pairs of units it seems very likely GW didn't understand their own rules

We will see when the FAQ drops. And I would put a small chance on them actually allowing it as Tau have come in undercooked for 10th.

RAW you could reduce damage to 0 when Celestine and Paragons came out in 9th, and when various rules came out in 10th prior to the designers commentary. I knew it was cheese, a decent percentage knew it was cheese, another percentage thought it was fine, a deranged percentage thought it was a carefully thought out and intentional decision by GW.

EightFoldPath wrote:
The cheese is doing all three of:
- Shooting while Guided.
- Observing.
- Actioning.
But only if you do it in that specific order.

From the context of FTGG talking about pairs of units it seems very likely GW didn't understand their own rules

We will see when the FAQ drops. And I would put a small chance on them actually allowing it as Tau have come in undercooked for 10th.

RAW you could reduce damage to 0 when Celestine and Paragons came out in 9th, and when various rules came out in 10th prior to the designers commentary. I knew it was cheese, a decent percentage knew it was cheese, another percentage thought it was fine, a deranged percentage thought it was a carefully thought out and intentional decision by GW.

My thoughts arre more on that tau getin +1BS on most units when focus firing is not that different from the marines getin full rerolls on hit and wound when they focus firing with their army rule mechanically speaking?

Oaths of Faceroll is very strong and much better than FTGG.

If GW intended to generally just give all but one unit +1 BS they could have written the rule a number of different ways to do that. It is a very complicated rule for no reason if we go down that hypothetical path.

So what will GW do? Will they nerf Oaths or will they put the points up on Marines? Will they clarify FTGG is pairs of units, one gets +1 BS, one gets naff all? Will they clarify that of course we meant that a guided unit could then become an observer unit?

What are you personally trying to achieve with "OP" FTGG? Beat up your friends? Beat up strangers in pick up games? Beat up your round 1 and 2 opponent at a tournament before losing to Eldar, IK, Marines?

EightFoldPath wrote:
Oaths of Faceroll is very strong and much better than FTGG.

If GW intended to generally just give all but one unit +1 BS they could have written the rule a number of different ways to do that. It is a very complicated rule for no reason if we go down that hypothetical path.

So what will GW do? Will they nerf Oaths or will they put the points up on Marines? Will they clarify FTGG is pairs of units, one gets +1 BS, one gets naff all? Will they clarify that of course we meant that a guided unit could then become an observer unit?

What are you personally trying to achieve with "OP" FTGG? Beat up your friends? Beat up strangers in pick up games? Beat up your round 1 and 2 opponent at a tournament before losing to Eldar, IK, Marines?

The point of the original question was if i had read the rule right as I do agree it is badly worded and I will wait till i have played a game of 10th before I decide if it is OP or not. That last part was uncalled for.

Guide a weapon support equiped crisis unit locked in combat. You get the plus 1 ignore the negative 1 for shooting into close combat and you also tie up a ranged unit and keep it from shooting. I had a commander and 6 suits tie up a hive tyrant and a swarmlord for two turns by themselves. They could have held out longer if I equipped them with shields.

I'm debating on a farsight bomb with 2 flamers and a shield gen. To just tie up and harass units. 12 D6 flamers wounding with a +1. Might try 3 flamers each shield drones give em the durability to tank several blows.

I think crisis suits will be a super aggressive close combat unit for tau thanks to the vehicle key word

TheBoy wrote:


I'm debating on a farsight bomb with 2 flamers and a shield gen. To just tie up and harass units. 12 D6 flamers wounding with a +1. Might try 3 flamers each shield drones give em the durability to tank several blows.

Crisis suits can have a sheild generator and 3 weapons