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In 2017, GW advanced the plot for the first time in 30 years and we get a whole new setting, a new cast of characters that are central to an evolving storyline, and, rather controversially, a major revamp of the Space Marine armies. For the next several years, GW and their writers flesh out the setting even further and give us a lot of plot and time to digest the changes.

But with the upcoming 10th edition and the 4th Tyrannic War, I feel like we are moving too fast. Just one year ago, the Ark of Omen began and it was an event that should have widespread implications on the galaxy. Yet, despite a rather inconclusive end, GW is moving forward to another galaxy-wide threat, namely the Tyrannids. So we were just done with Vashtorr and now suddenly he is sidelined because there are Nids coming our way.

Since 2020 or so, GW has been pushing one major campaign after the other and each of them seems to barely have any impact. And they are not even concurrent with one another with many of the characters are reused. If they diversify their cast a bit, such as making a whole major campaign about Farsight against Nazdreg or Farseer Eldrad against the Silent King, that would have solved a lot of the issues. Instead, a lot of the plots seem a repeat of Imperium racing against time to stop some galaxy-wide evil.

The biggest issue with the plot advancing too quickly is that a lot of factions like all the Aeldari and Necrons are getting very outdated. We don't know what happens to them and it feels like they get shoved aside despite the fact they should have a lot more active role in the current events. Not a single Aeldari assaulted the final fortress of Vashtorr, even though it was Eldrad who informed the Imperium about the Arks of Omen being more than a random occurrence in the first place. Meanwhile, the Imperium is just hopping from one leading role to another.

They're using these events to promote whatever new stuff they're selling and to provide a backdrop for games. Once they've served that function they're never mentioned again and any long-term ramifications are forgotten about. For instance, the Ynnari stuff. (Most of) these events are more marketing tools than part of some living, overarching storyline.

I am convinced that the Ynnari and possibly Harlequins fell victim to changing plans as to the future of the game, perhaps an aborted Age of ... type reset. I only hope the interviews on the geek sites in a few years are sufficiently, ah, lubricated to get the juicy details.

Mind you, if we as committed fans of the universe are feeling our heads spin, imagine how Bobby feels...

No, in 2017 GW invented a "plot" for a sandbox setting that had perfectly fine for the last 30 years.

Stop encouraging them to keep going with Avengers 40k.

Pilum wrote:
I am convinced that the Ynnari and possibly Harlequins fell victim to changing plans as to the future of the game, perhaps an aborted Age of ... type reset. I only hope the interviews on the geek sites in a few years are sufficiently, ah, lubricated to get the juicy details.

Mind you, if we as committed fans of the universe are feeling our heads spin, imagine how Bobby feels...

I think we could have been building toward that kind of thing, at least until someone at marketing pointed out that 41K just doesn't market as well as the decades of already selling out 40K marketing

That said I also got the impression GW was potentially moving toward shattering the Imperium fully in half and using that to also create design space to allow other factions to rise up. For all its age 40K has a surprisingly small roster of factions. Granted many of them are quite deep in terms of having large model ranges; but still quite a small number considering its age. Esp if you simply roll the marines into 1 force since whlist they have different chapters; its all the same type of design style across their range.

We did see them openly tease several other Xenos forces with art in the last rule book. I think that plan is still kind of on the cards, just perhaps being approached differently.



I think Yinnari itself was born of cheap marketing tricks. 1 new model box that creates a "whole new army" that's just two existing ones mashed together. Same as how Marines got Primaris; which instead of just being the next marin upgrade design; were bolted into the side creating an odd situation of Marines having two armies in one kind of.

Yinnari I think has been soft-dropped since its really just an alliance system and doesn't need its own book. At least unless GW gets the idea to create a whole new model line for them.Though honestly Craftworld needed a LOT of attention then (which I think is also why Yinnari failed because half the army was old models); still needs a good chunk of attention and there are Corsairs and Xeodites both as fleshed out themes for Eldar that would honestly be better to go for to develop models for instead of yet another subfaction that's brand new.

Pilum wrote:
I am convinced that the Ynnari and possibly Harlequins fell victim to changing plans as to the future of the game, perhaps an aborted Age of ... type reset.

Yeah. That seems very possible. Personally, I really like the Ynnari. Their whole, "We'll kill god in hopes of a better tomorrow no matter how many of us die in the process," is exactly what I'd been wanting for my eldar. Pre-Ynnari, the craftworlders couldn't win for losing; every victory was at best just a matter of losing 1% of your population instead of 100%. And that's even when the plot doesn't go out of its way to pull a diabla ex machina and screw them over out of nowhere.

But yeah, I think what GW is doing is essentially introducing plot developments, but then going back and sprinkling additional plot hooks into any time gaps. So if you want to do an Indomintus Crusade campaign, you can, or you can hop back in time to the earliest days of Bobby's reawakening, or you can tell a story about the Ynnari while they're still relative unknowns, etc. Optimistically, we can end up with a sandbox setting that also isn't 100% stagnant.

I just wish they'd circle back and check in on certain plot developments more often. Like, I don't necessarily want the Ynnari to find the last crone sword any time soon, but I *do* want to know more about what they've been up to since their BL novels and their shopping trips for Guilliman.

I keep hoping that Ynnari is setting the seed for when Eldar are the big edition release army. I could just see that being the spark of a campaign of the Ynnari kicking the Eldar into a bit of overdrive. Going from passive "we hide and mostly lose even when we win" to "feth that lets rebuild our empire or at least go down guns blazing".


Also cause I'd like such a sweep to also come with mobilizing the Exodites as a fresh army wave.

 Overread wrote:
I keep hoping that Ynnari is setting the seed for when Eldar are the big edition release army. I could just see that being the spark of a campaign of the Ynnari kicking the Eldar into a bit of overdrive. Going from passive "we hide and mostly lose even when we win" to "feth that lets rebuild our empire or at least go down guns blazing".


Also cause I'd like such a sweep to also come with mobilizing the Exodites as a fresh army wave.

My guess is that exodites will eventually get the anhrathe treatment (i.e. a single box for KT or similar that you can use in 40k), and then both will become basically harlequins (one box that builds some of your characters plus some troops, and maybe a couple extra characters or kits for some expansion.

The thing is, I don't really want Ynnari to get a ton of Ynnari-specific units. To me, the appeal isn't that they're just another flavor of space elf; it's that they're the banner that unites the discontented members of all the other factions who want to go down swinging. Which means I think the Ynnari story might be better suited for shaking up the state of the Slaaneshi factions rather than introducing a bunch of "Ynnari" kits.

Let Ynnead manifest, split open Slaanesh's belly, maybe bring back some form of the eldar pantheon (as Yvraine was hinting at in Wild Rider), and send Slaanesh bleeding away into the shadows. You could use this as an excuse to sell eldar kits if you want, but I think the real development there is that you could have Slaanesh still be around but function differently from the other chaos gods. Make them more precarious, or have various greater daemons try to step in to fill the void, or have Slaanesh start uniting a whole menagerie of minor chaos gods so GW has an excuse to sell a bunch of daemon kits that don't necessarily fit the established gods' aesthetics. Something like that.

The Ynari plot will advance if we get Emperor's Children this edition. It would also be a good excuse for Vect to show up.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
They're using these events to promote whatever new stuff they're selling and to provide a backdrop for games. Once they've served that function they're never mentioned again and any long-term ramifications are forgotten about. For instance, the Ynnari stuff. (Most of) these events are more marketing tools than part of some living, overarching storyline.

Here are my spoilers....

11-th Edition through...whenever sales start to dry up: Primarch returns, bad guy appears, more destruction. The Imperium is about to be destroyed oh no. Repeat pattern until we get to...

Point at Which Sales Start Dipping: Emperor is released as a model to coincide with some plot where he gets a new body and restarts the great crusade and creates all new new space marines (also new models). The Imperium is saved Yay!

Once you realize that most of these events are actually happening simultaneously, you understand that the plot isn't really advancing at all.

plot advancement sells, specificly it sells novels, campaign books etc. back towards the tail end of D&D 3.5 WOTC caught onto this big time, and realized that if they did big realms shaking events in forgotten realms periodicly it ensured novel sales (even if the novels where garbage people bought them) Battletech has for some time thrived with an advancing plot. etc

that said yeah GW's been kinda weak about it, their lore writing is pretty damned weak

PenitentJake wrote:
The Ynari plot will advance if we get Emperor's Children this edition. It would also be a good excuse for Vect to show up.

Nah. It will advance when GW has Ynari models to push. That's when GW does appearance of advancement leading to same old status quo in the end.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Once you realize that most of these events are actually happening simultaneously, you understand that the plot isn't really advancing at all.

This. The plot is not advancing too quickly, it merely made a little jump at the start of 8th. It went from a very crowded 999.999M41 to a crowded M42 where we don't really count time anymore but everything happens at about the same time. Before you had, say, the battle of Medusa and Armageddon and the Maelstrom and what not now you have Vigilus, Octarius, the Pariah Nexus, the Siege of Ultramar. They all find a "conclusion" along the lines of: The evil guy could barely be prevented from getting his McGuffin, but there are still continuous fights on the ground.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Once you realize that most of these events are actually happening simultaneously, you understand that the plot isn't really advancing at all.

This. The plot is not advancing too quickly, it merely made a little jump at the start of 8th. It went from a very crowded 999.999M41 to a crowded M42 where we don't really count time anymore but everything happens at about the same time. Before you had, say, the battle of Medusa and Armageddon and the Maelstrom and what not now you have Vigilus, Octarius, the Pariah Nexus, the Siege of Ultramar. They all find a "conclusion" along the lines of: The evil guy could barely be prevented from getting his McGuffin, but there are still continuous fights on the ground.

Yeah. The secret sauce GW needs to find the recipe for is to make their newer conflicts more limited in scope and consequence. Not every campaign they come out with needs to threaten Bobby's home town or give huge swathes of the galaxy anti-psychic depression. Just set up some interesting, limited stakes that people can get invested in and flesh out some flavorful conflicts for a small corner of the galaxy. Instead of a Vigilus situation where defeat would mean keeping the imperium divided indefinitely, just show us some of the factions involved in one sector of Imperium Nihilus. Splash in enough drama or fun personalities to get people invested, and then let there be lasting consequences.

This, I think, is where named characters could really shine. Use them as some of the players involved, and then add to their lore by having the conflict mean something to them. This works especially well if you have a new model for that character. Maybe Prince Yriel's spear of twilight transforms or shatters at the height of a battle, and his new model has an alternate weapon option to match. Maybe <insert marine here> gets dreadnaughted during the fighting, and now we have a dreadnaught and non-dreadnaught statblock for him. Maybe Baharroth and Ahriman clash, and future versions of Baharrothget a fluffy little "Eff you, Ahriman," rule.

I really don't want the plot of the setting to move *much,* but I do want it to move. Or at the very least, I want named characters' stories to progress.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Once you realize that most of these events are actually happening simultaneously, you understand that the plot isn't really advancing at all.

This. The plot is not advancing too quickly, it merely made a little jump at the start of 8th. It went from a very crowded 999.999M41 to a crowded M42 where we don't really count time anymore but everything happens at about the same time. Before you had, say, the battle of Medusa and Armageddon and the Maelstrom and what not now you have Vigilus, Octarius, the Pariah Nexus, the Siege of Ultramar. They all find a "conclusion" along the lines of: The evil guy could barely be prevented from getting his McGuffin, but there are still continuous fights on the ground.

Yeah. The secret sauce GW needs to find the recipe for is to make their newer conflicts more limited in scope and consequence. Not every campaign they come out with needs to threaten Bobby's home town or give huge swathes of the galaxy anti-psychic depression. Just set up some interesting, limited stakes that people can get invested in and flesh out some flavorful conflicts for a small corner of the galaxy. Instead of a Vigilus situation where defeat would mean keeping the imperium divided indefinitely, just show us some of the factions involved in one sector of Imperium Nihilus. Splash in enough drama or fun personalities to get people invested, and then let there be lasting consequences.

This, I think, is where named characters could really shine. Use them as some of the players involved, and then add to their lore by having the conflict mean something to them. This works especially well if you have a new model for that character. Maybe Prince Yriel's spear of twilight transforms or shatters at the height of a battle, and his new model has an alternate weapon option to match. Maybe <insert marine here> gets dreadnaughted during the fighting, and now we have a dreadnaught and non-dreadnaught statblock for him. Maybe Baharroth and Ahriman clash, and future versions of Baharrothget a fluffy little "Eff you, Ahriman," rule.

I really don't want the plot of the setting to move *much,* but I do want it to move. Or at the very least, I want named characters' stories to progress.

Warzone Charadon is my go-to example for this being done, if not well, than decently. We have Typhus barreling down on forge world Metalica and eventually infecting it with a currently incurable planetary cancer, elements of Be'lakor's followers being schemey, and Knight House Raven completely losing their homeworld. There's lasting impact towards moderately well-known factions, but situated in a location that is itself not tactically vital to the rest of the galaxy. The Charadon Sector was more important because of what was there and not where it was.

They only seem like they're advancing too quickly because they're allowed to actually end. By comparison, pre-8th had like a million high-intensity faction defining wars (Armageddon, 13th Crusade, Octarius, the Tau 3rd Expansion etc) that had been retread for like 20 years in real time.

The problem isn't that the plot is advancing too quickly, the problem imo is that the events almost always end in an Imperial victory- usually pyrric, but a victory nonetheless. So even if the plot is technically advancing it's still the status quo.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Once you realize that most of these events are actually happening simultaneously, you understand that the plot isn't really advancing at all.

This. The plot is not advancing too quickly, it merely made a little jump at the start of 8th. It went from a very crowded 999.999M41 to a crowded M42 where we don't really count time anymore but everything happens at about the same time. Before you had, say, the battle of Medusa and Armageddon and the Maelstrom and what not now you have Vigilus, Octarius, the Pariah Nexus, the Siege of Ultramar. They all find a "conclusion" along the lines of: The evil guy could barely be prevented from getting his McGuffin, but there are still continuous fights on the ground.

Yeah. The secret sauce GW needs to find the recipe for is to make their newer conflicts more limited in scope and consequence. Not every campaign they come out with needs to threaten Bobby's home town or give huge swathes of the galaxy anti-psychic depression. Just set up some interesting, limited stakes that people can get invested in and flesh out some flavorful conflicts for a small corner of the galaxy. Instead of a Vigilus situation where defeat would mean keeping the imperium divided indefinitely, just show us some of the factions involved in one sector of Imperium Nihilus. Splash in enough drama or fun personalities to get people invested, and then let there be lasting consequences.

This, I think, is where named characters could really shine. Use them as some of the players involved, and then add to their lore by having the conflict mean something to them. This works especially well if you have a new model for that character. Maybe Prince Yriel's spear of twilight transforms or shatters at the height of a battle, and his new model has an alternate weapon option to match. Maybe <insert marine here> gets dreadnaughted during the fighting, and now we have a dreadnaught and non-dreadnaught statblock for him. Maybe Baharroth and Ahriman clash, and future versions of Baharrothget a fluffy little "Eff you, Ahriman," rule.

I really don't want the plot of the setting to move *much,* but I do want it to move. Or at the very least, I want named characters' stories to progress.

What's annoying is that they pretty much solved this with the Imperial Armor campaigns. You got to have a big slugfest between two factions which almost always had a clear winner, but because it was always over some random planet it wasn't a big deal.

I like 30k for the story. 40k is only better on the table where you have a bunch of different alien races to fight against.