Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Tyel wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
In general, in my 10th edition games the decisions taken by me and my opponents have mattered much more than the lists we have built.

That said, I see many veterans being frustrated by no longer being able to decide games at the list building stage and the lack of obvious "good against everything" units they can just bring 3 of to solve all possible problems. Quite a few are unwilling to relearn a game they have played for decades.

To move on from Necrons, I kind of feel though that's why (late) 9th was considered to be balanced. If the stuff you take (which was a reasonable portion of most codexes) counters everything, it should be harder to win in the list building stage.

I think in 10th we have what you described in the Ork tactics thread (obviously the solutions will be different):

 Jidmah wrote:
Not just vehicles - IMO there are the following defensive "weight classes" in 10th edition:

1) Light infantry - gretchin, kultists, pox walkers, infantry squads, guardians. You have little requirements in regards to the quality of attacks here, more is better.
2) Medium infantry - marines, flash gits, sisters, beastsnagga boyz, aspects. They have multiple layers of defense and enough armor to benefit from cover. You need decent strength, devastating wounds or amor penetration to kill them efficiently. Weight of low quality attacks can hurt, but not wipe them.
3) Heavy infantry - terminators, MANz, custodes, bullgryns. Usually good toughness, armor and invuls backed up by high wound counts and defensive abilities, characters or stratagems. You need high quality guns to kill them, with good number of shots. They pretty much shrug off low quality attacks, even in high numbers and dedicated anti-tank guns often aren't sufficient to kill them because the low number of shots bounces of the invuls.
4) Mounted/Beasts/light vehicles - bikes, squighogs, spawn, buggies. Durable units similar to medium infantry, but with more wounds, but below the magic T8 threshold. Other than medium infantry, you need high damage weapons to kill them efficiently.
5) Vehicles - trukks, speeders, rhinos, guard artillery. Good armor, wounds and toughness of 8-10, but no further noteworthy defensive layers. Weight of attacks will hurt them, but as these models tend to be cheap there is no way to kill them efficiently without high quality weapons.
6) Monsters/Walkers - dreads, hellbrutes, daemon princes, primarchs, daemon engines. They have great defensive profiles, invuls, defensive abilities but are usually limited to T9 or 10 and around 10 wounds. In theory they could be drowned in attacks, but almost all of them hit hard, you take major losses when trying. PKs can usually take them down during the Waaagh!
7) Tanks/super-heavies - LRBT, battlewagon with 'ard case, morkanaut, landraiders. Unless you can ignore at least one layer of their durability (toughness or armor or high wound counts), don't bother shooting them.
Of course, there are some oddballs which fit nowhere, but the absolute majority of models fit into one of these classes.

Its still early, so some discovery is inevitable - but it seems a lot easier to build lists that are very lethal into each other - or relatively pillowfisted - because they have - or don't have - the right tools for the job.

This is perhaps especially an issue for more casual lists which aren't written with an eye to covering all the bases and working as a tool box. (And I'd argue some factions don't really have great options for that anyway).

From a balance perspective, while its moving into the endless "game vs simulation" argument, it feels like what we have in the indexes is not a rock-paper-scissors system.
So for example if light infantry only have "low quality attacks" - they end up only being good into other light infantry. But they are hardly unique for that purpose, so you can just ditch them. And certainly bringing more of them doesn't seem to impose a question on your opponent in the way taking more stuff from the other categories does.

Which I think is partly an issue of unit size. So maybe a unit of Terminators (especially with an attached character) chasing down a unit of Gretchin (45) or Cultists (55) would be overkill and therefore inefficient. But if you move up the points to say 10 Boyz (85) - let alone Guardians (110), Wyches (110) or Kabalites (120) etc, then it starts to become quite reasonable. Blast on certain already efficient platforms (not just Desolators) already feels too good into 10 man squads, and borderline ludicrous into 20 mans.

I'm also tempted to say that assault needs to be somewhat universalist or it just doesn't work. You can't run reasonably expensive units across the table, make a successful charge roll - only to find yourself going "well on average dice I'd only expect to kill 2 marines anyway" - and completely bounce off TEQ or Rhinos. Maybe that's defeatist - but it seems like how it goes.

I'd even argue there's another threshold at T5, T6, T8 and T10(+).

T5 will see some massed Heavy Bolter and their equivalent, at T6, you're more likely to switch up to Auto/Assault Cannon equivalents or better. T8 jumps into Plasma/Melta and still the Autocannons - T10+ starts to hit Lascannon equivalents, and tank/monster mounted stuff like laser destroyers and D Cannons. The reduced lethality is probably what added this "new" tier at T6. Most weapons lost some Armor Pen which meant wounding on 5's still had potential with -2/-3 AP etc.. whereas now S5 -1 vs T6 3+ probably lost too much to still be able to stretch. Some people subconciously picked up on this fast with the Predator Destructor. Additional -1AP on Heavy Bolters for 6A 5 -2 D2 and 4 RF (easy RF on top of that) 2 autocannon s9 -2 D3 shots that can still cross over that threshold with both the sponsons and the main gun.

If you exclusively look at toughness and strength without considering the other layers of defense, you are bound to pick the wrong weapons for the job.

 Jidmah wrote:
If you exclusively look at toughness and strength without considering the other layers of defense, you are bound to pick the wrong weapons for the job.

Good thing I didn't say just SvT then, and included things like how easy the Autocannon is to RapidFire, along with how an increased AP can help overcome a less than favorable SvT but less so this time around.

SVT is the first thing you should look at because its the first pass/fail/efficiency check. When you wound on 5's that's a lot of armor saves they've passed because they didn't even have to roll. In a way, its similar to Transhuman. They've got a pocket in there where you often have to choose 4+/5+ wounds, or low AP/Damage.

There's a fair bit of Mutli-shot S5 -1(or -2) D1 (or D2) Heavy Bolters, Cryptothralls, Deathmarks, Squig Launchas Psychic Scream, and on and on.

When weapons go to S6, they are more often AP0 , D1 - Assault Cannon, Particle Beamer, Tesla Cannon, Devourers with Brainleech worms, Shadow Weaver

At S7 its usually S7 -2 D1 for plasma-ish stuff, or S7 -1 D2 like Supa-Gatlers, Missile Pods, Bio Plasma, Deathspitters etc.

TEQ now eats into the Heavy Bolter with T5, 2+/3+ W3 not being covered well by S5, -1, d2

Gravis equivalents at T6, W3 take that speedbump started by TQ and turn it into a plateau as you (normally) have to pick between the already platueaing Heavy Bolter, or move to a weapon that keeps up with the SvT race but actually backsteps on the AP and D, or leaning harder into your Plasma tier weapons. And more creatures got a Toughness bump than guns got a Strength bump. There are not a lot more "equivalents" in those defensive tiers.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
Necron RP is incredibly powerful in 10th I have no idea what you're talking about.

You get it once during your own Command Phase. Any army, besides Death Guard and AdMech, can brute force it squad to squad. The people that say it's good only say that after attaching a bunch of characters to squads. Outside doing 1 "invincible" Warrior blob you can't commit a lot of points to building around it. Mark my words on that.

Tell me you don't know necron rules without saying so.

Lol.

To add to that with a "real life" example where S5 weapons taper off vs T6 units, while the S6 guns are additionally generally taking a step back of their own:

MANZ are in a pretty nice sweet spot right now. at T6, 2+, 3W - Heavy Bolters are an uphill fight wounding on 5's, barely budging the armor save, and needing two woundings with a "wasted" extra damage. Grav only fares slightly better being D3 (and is SM only, plus better served going for Vehicles) - Jump up to an Assault Cannon (and the like- GW really seems to love 6A, S6 0 D1), and you're back to wounding on 4's but now you're not even moving the needle on armor save, and doing D1. Jump up to Plasma, and you're wounding on 3's, almost nullifying the armor save, still need two woundings with a "wasted" extra damage, and taking HAZARDOUS tests. Finally jump up to the Predator Autocannon and its 6 shots, wounding on 3's, armor save goes to 50/50 and each wounding kills a MANZ. Krak also fit in here, but usually have fewer shots per unit: 1 per 5 Intercessors, 2 per 5 Terminators, a few units at 2 per.

The SM units best situated to deal with Meganobz look like the Predator Destructor, and Desloation Squads and Scout Bikes - probably Plasma Redemptor Dreads and Firestrike Turrets. Maybe the Ballistus Dread, but you're likely "wasting" Lascannon shots on it if you're focus firing.

How many of those units are getting buzz? The Desolation Squad everyone expects to get nerfed into oblivion, and the Redemptor really. Maybe a little for the Predator. Nobody is really talking about Scout Bikes. Yet.

Breton, if I wanted the opinion of someone without a sliver of experience with 10th on ork tactics, I would have posted here. I didn't, someone else copied my content from another threat, so feel free to ignore whatever was quoted.

To it put bluntly all of that is nonsense, and the predator is terrible for killing MANz. Even with oath of moment you will likely be killing just one, and that one is going to be back up on its feet next turn.

 Jidmah wrote:
Breton, if I wanted the opinion of someone without a sliver of experience with 10th on ork tactics, I would have posted here. I didn't, someone else copied my content from another threat, so feel free to ignore whatever was quoted.
To it put bluntly all of that is nonsense, and the predator is terrible for killing MANz. Even with oath of moment you will likely be killing just one, and that one is going to be back up on its feet next turn.

Jidmah, there were no tactics involved. It was a straight up comparison of offensive/defensive power curve between S/T5 and S/T7.

Because MANZ are INFANTRY
Turret
Autocannon 4A RF2, S9, -2, D3
6 shots, 5.34 hits, 3.5 woundings, after save 1.75 woundings x 3 damage.
Sponsons
Heavy Bolter 2x 3A SH1, S5 -2 D2
6 shots, 6.34 hits, 2.09 woundings, After save 1.04 woundings x 2 damage.
Or
Lascannon 2x A1 S12 -4 D6+1D
2 shots, 1.78 hits, 1.49 woundings at ~4.5 damage

So with OOM, the Autocannon kills an average of 1 and 3/4 MANZ while the Heavy Bolters add 2/3 a MANZ OR the Lascannon add another MANZ and a half. That feels pretty decent against T6 2+. and even better against Gravis at T6 3+.

 Bosskelot wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
Necron RP is incredibly powerful in 10th I have no idea what you're talking about.

You get it once during your own Command Phase. Any army, besides Death Guard and AdMech, can brute force it squad to squad. The people that say it's good only say that after attaching a bunch of characters to squads. Outside doing 1 "invincible" Warrior blob you can't commit a lot of points to building around it. Mark my words on that.

And through a strat, that you can also double up on with Overlords. And through Rez Orbs. And through Ghost Arks. All the while a Reanimator is boosting all of these rolls.

Great, you used all your points to boost one squad and then you opponent just has to wipe it in one go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yall realize lethality didn't go down, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
Necron RP is incredibly powerful in 10th I have no idea what you're talking about.

You get it once during your own Command Phase. Any army, besides Death Guard and AdMech, can brute force it squad to squad. The people that say it's good only say that after attaching a bunch of characters to squads. Outside doing 1 "invincible" Warrior blob you can't commit a lot of points to building around it. Mark my words on that.

Tell me you don't know necron rules without saying so.

Lol.

We were given the rules for free. They're there for everyone to read. You see stacking upon stacking, but miss when it happens and how easily worked around that is.

Breton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Breton, if I wanted the opinion of someone without a sliver of experience with 10th on ork tactics, I would have posted here. I didn't, someone else copied my content from another threat, so feel free to ignore whatever was quoted.
To it put bluntly all of that is nonsense, and the predator is terrible for killing MANz. Even with oath of moment you will likely be killing just one, and that one is going to be back up on its feet next turn.

Jidmah, there were no tactics involved.

Believe me, I noticed. Which is exactly what lead me to my comment - assuming neitherstratagems nor cover means your entire math is completely detached from the reality of games and therefore worthless.

Played my first game of 10th today - 1000pts, my friends Guard vs my Tyranids.

I just brought a random list of one of each thing I could fit in to see how they play, and my friend brought a balanced vehicle/infantry Guard list.

The Nids kerb stomped the guard and by turn 3 it was basically done - we played a bit of T4 to try things out he'd have been tabled in T5.

The big wound, high toughness models just wouldn't die before they ploughed through stuff and to be honest it felt really imbalanced - he couldn't have done much different and didn't really make any mistakes.

As a first game impression, we both left feeling that vehicle/monsters are much tougher and are going to be the meta, and there was little to no point bringing infantry beyond objective sitting.

Games could also still obviously be decided in the early turns.

Looking forward to playing more to see if these initial thoughts hold true

EviscerationPlague wrote:
You get it once during your own Command Phase. Any army, besides Death Guard and AdMech, can brute force it squad to squad. The people that say it's good only say that after attaching a bunch of characters to squads. Outside doing 1 "invincible" Warrior blob you can't commit a lot of points to building around it. Mark my words on that.

Every unit gets it, it can be buffed by certain characters (which you are incentivised to take via the Detachment), and there are other units (Canoptek Reanimators) that can buff it as well.
Warriors get D6 base, with D3+3 on an objective, attaching a Lord gives you two instances to enact Reanimation Protocols, and if the unit is within 12" of a Canoptek Reanimator you get an extra D3 (which stacks BTW so multiple Reanimators give you multiple dice to roll)

You complain about your opponent having to focus fire down your units like that's a bad thing, especially if you're playing the army properly and attach characters like Technomancers or Chronomancers that make it harder for those enemy units to kill yours. There are units out there right now that have massive balance issues but Reanimation Protocols are a very good army rule if you play to the strengths of the detachment.

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Breton, if I wanted the opinion of someone without a sliver of experience with 10th on ork tactics, I would have posted here. I didn't, someone else copied my content from another threat, so feel free to ignore whatever was quoted.
To it put bluntly all of that is nonsense, and the predator is terrible for killing MANz. Even with oath of moment you will likely be killing just one, and that one is going to be back up on its feet next turn.

Jidmah, there were no tactics involved.

Believe me, I noticed. Which is exactly what lead me to my comment - assuming neitherstratagems nor cover means your entire math is completely detached from the reality of games and therefore worthless.

Let me make it even clearer since your animosity is getting in the way - there were not tactics INTENDED to be involved. And suddently requiring other people to include strats and cover to demonstrate a T6 plateau but not the T8 plateau - or practically any other math-hammer not specifically involving cover or strats - is an interesting choice. But I guess you need a new reason to save face on the Predator thing. You could have just said you didn't realize the Preds had a bespoke anti-infantry boost that put them over the top.

Breton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Breton, if I wanted the opinion of someone without a sliver of experience with 10th on ork tactics, I would have posted here. I didn't, someone else copied my content from another threat, so feel free to ignore whatever was quoted.
To it put bluntly all of that is nonsense, and the predator is terrible for killing MANz. Even with oath of moment you will likely be killing just one, and that one is going to be back up on its feet next turn.

Jidmah, there were no tactics involved.

Believe me, I noticed. Which is exactly what lead me to my comment - assuming neitherstratagems nor cover means your entire math is completely detached from the reality of games and therefore worthless.

Let me make it even clearer since your animosity is getting in the way - there were not tactics INTENDED to be involved. And suddently requiring other people to include strats and cover to demonstrate a T6 plateau but not the T8 plateau - or practically any other math-hammer not specifically involving cover or strats - is an interesting choice. But I guess you need a new reason to save face on the Predator thing. You could have just said you didn't realize the Preds had a bespoke anti-infantry boost that put them over the top.

Nope, I very much included both AP-2 and oath of moments into my calculations and it still sucks, because AP-2 into a 2+ armor unit in a game with near omnipresent cover is still not great. Which was exactly my point, you didn't look at all layers of defense and therefore picked the wrong weapon for the job.

You are absolutely wrong on this, and no amount of bending over backwards and moving goalposts will change that.

And I don't care about face at all. Did you know that one of the most efficient ways to derail a thread on dakka is to respond to one of your posts and tell you that you are wrong?

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Breton, if I wanted the opinion of someone without a sliver of experience with 10th on ork tactics, I would have posted here. I didn't, someone else copied my content from another threat, so feel free to ignore whatever was quoted.
To it put bluntly all of that is nonsense, and the predator is terrible for killing MANz. Even with oath of moment you will likely be killing just one, and that one is going to be back up on its feet next turn.

Jidmah, there were no tactics involved.

Believe me, I noticed. Which is exactly what lead me to my comment - assuming neitherstratagems nor cover means your entire math is completely detached from the reality of games and therefore worthless.

Let me make it even clearer since your animosity is getting in the way - there were not tactics INTENDED to be involved. And suddently requiring other people to include strats and cover to demonstrate a T6 plateau but not the T8 plateau - or practically any other math-hammer not specifically involving cover or strats - is an interesting choice. But I guess you need a new reason to save face on the Predator thing. You could have just said you didn't realize the Preds had a bespoke anti-infantry boost that put them over the top.

Nope, I very much included both AP-2 and oath of moments into my calculations and it still sucks, because AP-2 into a 2+ armor unit in a game with near omnipresent cover is still not great. Which was exactly my point, you didn't look at all layers of defense and therefore picked the wrong weapon for the job.

Again Cover and strats are rarely put into these benchmarks unless it specifically involves the cover or strat, right? When people do S9 Melta into a T9 Dread they don't include Cover or Strats, do they? Sometimes they may not even include the 5++ vs non-invuln one. I'm not even sure why you've got your shorts in a bunch. I was using them as an archetype for the general category of T6 2/3+ because their 2+ was even tougher than the 3+ Grav in a benchmark test, not some sort of "tactical How To" - because again, this was more of a benchmark than a tactical.

You are absolutely wrong on this, and no amount of bending over backwards and moving goalposts will change that.

You mean like Dev Doctrine + Storm of Fire for ignores cover and and additional -1 to AP? I mean that sort of one-upsmanship is a big reason these benchmark mathhammers don't include Cover and Strats right?

And I don't care about face at all. Did you know that one of the most efficient ways to derail a thread on dakka is to respond to one of your posts and tell you that you are wrong?

Are you trying to derail a thread by telling someone else they derail threads?
Regardless, I'm pretty sure a platform that kills (most often) two MANZ in a 2-6 model count unit a turn and then most of another per turn (Before escalating Strategem Duels) is doing all right, and you are free to disagree.

Feel free to play armchair hammer benchmarks with yourself against a unit you clearly have never faced in a real game.

Doesn't change the fact you're still wrong.

I was looking to really discuss Jidmah's categories - and why I think its resulting in games being over quickly - rather than debate whether a Predator can kill MANz.

The problem as far as I can see is that unit's defensive stats have been budged into these categories - but the weapons hasn't followed (or has only done so half-heartedly for a bunch of indexes).

Which is basically a way of saying - SM can choose from Melta, Plasma, Grav, Autocannons, Assault Cannons, mass Heavy Bolters, etc etc - but most other factions can't.

For example as DE my tool for dealing with categories 3 to 7 is... Dark Lances. Or I guess Heat Lances or if pressed Blasters etc - but its basically Lances all the way down. My other weapon profiles are typically low S (although sometimes poisoned), low AP and usually 1 damage. Which doesn't especially do the job into MEQ, never mind anything tougher.

Which means the game can feel very dependent on alpha strike. If I nuke your tough units off the table (if I can bring 20+ lances to bear I have a decent chance) then I'm likely to win. If however you nuke these units off the table, I'm left with stuff that can't reliably scratch anything bigger than a space marine.

This is mainly because (imo) assault has been nerfed and is no longer quasi universalist into anything. And this seems to go for a bunch of factions beyond just DE. I saw someone claiming only really Orks can do assault well now (although I don't know if that's true) - but not with Boyz.

Tyel wrote:
This is mainly because (imo) assault has been nerfed and is no longer quasi universalist into anything. And this seems to go for a bunch of factions beyond just DE. I saw someone claiming only really Orks can do assault well now (although I don't know if that's true) - but not with Boyz.

I don't think you are wrong here - squighog boyz, beastsnagga boyz and nobz backed by army-wide sustained hits and the Waaagh! itself are all effective against a great number of different targets, and many more less powerful choices like dreads, kanz, battlewagons and killrigs follow that trend. It's a mix of good buff characters, high base strength, a bit of AP and 2 damage everywhere that makes them good against almost everything.
I think it's just heavy infantry that orks have no good way of dealing with (neither combat nor shooting), but also don't see anyone spamming those right now.

The only thing i can really think of would be the walkers. They have the damage characteristic, AP and amount of attacks to deal with heavy infantry such as custodes. Maybe you could try spamming rokkits at a unit that is 5+? A unit of deffkoptas (with mek) should do at least a bit of ranged damage at such targets. Shame you wouldn't be wounding on 2 though.

I do think Custodes can mess stuff up in combat though.

Tyel wrote:
I was looking to really discuss Jidmah's categories - and why I think its resulting in games being over quickly - rather than debate whether a Predator can kill MANz.

The problem as far as I can see is that unit's defensive stats have been budged into these categories - but the weapons hasn't followed (or has only done so half-heartedly for a bunch of indexes).

That was my point, even beyond it - that new categories have been created. Most people agreed on at least three - MEQ (T4, 3+ or thereabouts) TEQ (T5, 2+, 5++ or thereabouts) and (Heavy) Vehicles. Some might split out the light vehicles - which is fair. Some might add GEQ (Guard equivalent T3, 5+) which is also fair. But expanding the top of the SvT range curves from the T Side much more often than the S side has created more of a stairstep than a curve. A lot of the TEQ "aimed" weapons did not get a S bump to include the Gravis Equivalents - likely because the TEQ units didn't get the T bump that Gravis did - meanwhile the sweet spot Gravis Equivalents landed in have guns more aimed at wounding Guard Equivalents on 2's than ripping up W3 3+ models. All those S6 -0 D1 guns are for Guard Equivalents with T3 W1 and minimal armor to start with - similar to the way you see OC Plasma being S8 -3 D2 vs a T4, 3+, D2 MEQ. Or why it wasn't unhead of to see S8 -2 D6D Krak missile storms heading into MEQ. As they're now S9, -2 D6+1 its even easier to see the MEQ overkill - while Superkrak and the Las-Not-Cannons going to S10, -2, D6+1 area to hurl into TEQ is also in the mix - finally you've got the actual Lascannon for the 2+ to wound T6 Gravis Equivalents - if they're not too busy shooting into T12 vehicles.

Which is basically a way of saying - SM can choose from Melta, Plasma, Grav, Autocannons, Assault Cannons, mass Heavy Bolters, etc etc - but most other factions can't.

For example as DE my tool for dealing with categories 3 to 7 is... Dark Lances. Or I guess Heat Lances or if pressed Blasters etc - but its basically Lances all the way down. My other weapon profiles are typically low S (although sometimes poisoned), low AP and usually 1 damage. Which doesn't especially do the job into MEQ, never mind anything tougher.

Which means the game can feel very dependent on alpha strike. If I nuke your tough units off the table (if I can bring 20+ lances to bear I have a decent chance) then I'm likely to win. If however you nuke these units off the table, I'm left with stuff that can't reliably scratch anything bigger than a space marine.

This is mainly because (imo) assault has been nerfed and is no longer quasi universalist into anything. And this seems to go for a bunch of factions beyond just DE. I saw someone claiming only really Orks can do assault well now (although I don't know if that's true) - but not with Boyz.

Basically we're talking about the stratafication of attacks into targets. And the rings in the tree trunk for T5, T6, did not grow, and may have even shrunk. I (slightly more than) haflway suspect this was intentional on GW's part. Some players can/will choose/be forced to lean into the Lascannon/Lance/etc options either because they don't have any others - or they don't have enough models to cover all the options (like Knights or Custodes etc). But I get the feeling we're being pushed into TAC lists that have a little bit of each strata in their arsenal. Probably another reason Desolation Squads are expected to get spanked down so hard they won't be able to sit until 12th edition. In addition to a bucket of indirect dice that don't suffer indirect penalties, they've also got one of the better gun stats for multiple targets 10x Superkrak can lay into TEQ or Mid Range Monsters fairly well.

Assuming GW sticks with this design philosophy long enough, I would expect to see more attack sources in the TEQ and Gravis EQ range for all factions. And between the Side Grade thing, and stratafication I'd even expect anit-TEQ attacks to not cross over with the Anti-GravisEQ attacks - probably through a manipulation of the Attacks, S and AP as D/W is pretty similar on both (though D4 on the TEQ for Stormshields and Crisis Suits has potential) - AP-2 on TEQ generally pushes them onto their Invuln.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additionally - as I look at the Drukhari sheets - they may have been hit by the similar "unintended consqueunces" cracks that hit Sisters with the change to Melta vs their original design. They(DE) were designed with a Poison approach way back when heavy infantry had two wounds. Maybe. They haven't been kept up with the expanding profiles, and they don't have the depth that Aeldari does from their walkers and support weapons in addition to the similar speeders.

cody.d. wrote:
The only thing i can really think of would be the walkers. They have the damage characteristic, AP and amount of attacks to deal with heavy infantry such as custodes. Maybe you could try spamming rokkits at a unit that is 5+? A unit of deffkoptas (with mek) should do at least a bit of ranged damage at such targets. Shame you wouldn't be wounding on 2 though.

I do think Custodes can mess stuff up in combat though.

well they do, but who in their right mind plays a melee army in 10th? Maybe if the design of the army forces you to do it, it can be a problem, at most other times a melee heavy or melee centric army in the age of overwatch is not going to be making it cross midfield. Horde armies can at least try and suffer horrible number of models lost, but something like BA or GK players would be just wasting time playing vs custodes. There is more match ups like that in 10th though. BT in GK. Melee, including custodes, in to knights or eldar. And I don't even know what people that started DG in 8th are doing right now with their armies.

Karol wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
The only thing i can really think of would be the walkers. They have the damage characteristic, AP and amount of attacks to deal with heavy infantry such as custodes. Maybe you could try spamming rokkits at a unit that is 5+? A unit of deffkoptas (with mek) should do at least a bit of ranged damage at such targets. Shame you wouldn't be wounding on 2 though.

I do think Custodes can mess stuff up in combat though.

well they do, but who in their right mind plays a melee army in 10th? Maybe if the design of the army forces you to do it, it can be a problem, at most other times a melee heavy or melee centric army in the age of overwatch is not going to be making it cross midfield. Horde armies can at least try and suffer horrible number of models lost, but something like BA or GK players would be just wasting time playing vs custodes. There is more match ups like that in 10th though. BT in GK. Melee, including custodes, in to knights or eldar. And I don't even know what people that started DG in 8th are doing right now with their armies.

Overwatch (the Strat) is still limited to once per turn- not even once per phase.. Even the SM Captains (probably) don't trump that additional restriction - at least that's how I'd read it. You've probably got a unit or two that has an Overwatch mimicking bespoke, or that improves the chances of overwatch. Am I reading Overwatch wrong, or are other people playing it wrong?

how does it doesn't trump the restriction. It say once per phase, even if it was used use it again.
Gulliman+20 desolators are like basic noob marine army right now.

GK don't have any "overwatch" buffing special rules. The best you can get is the use again stratagem on the NDK GM. But the problem with all of those and GK, is that their range weapons are really bad. 10 termintors with 2 psycanons and a character attached cost like an eldar WK, but they sure as hell do not have the resiliance, offensive power. heck they don't even have the offensive power of a 10 desolators firing from behing a ruin.

Karol wrote:
how does it doesn't trump the restriction. It say once per phase, even if it was used use it again.

Based on the wording of Rites, and the wording of the Restriction(s) on strats in general, and the Overwatch strat in specific.
Generic Strat Rules: "but you cannot use the same Stratagem more than once in the same phase."
Rites of Battle: "even if another unit from your army has already been targeted by that Stratagem this phase."
Overwatch: "One unit from your army that is within 24 inches" .... and .... "You can only use this Stratagem
once per turn".

It feels like Rites does get around "in the same phase" - they're mostly the same wording Rites Phase Empowerment cancels Strat Phase Restriction - but not "Once Per Turn" - different wording and increased restriction.

Gulliman+20 desolators are like basic noob marine army right now.

GK don't have any "overwatch" buffing special rules. The best you can get is the use again stratagem on the NDK GM. But the problem with all of those and GK, is that their range weapons are really bad. 10 termintors with 2 psycanons and a character attached cost like an eldar WK, but they sure as hell do not have the resiliance, offensive power. heck they don't even have the offensive power of a 10 desolators firing from behing a ruin.

Karol wrote:

Gulliman+20 desolators are like basic noob marine army right now.

pretty sure your average noob doesn't have 20 desolators

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:

Gulliman+20 desolators are like basic noob marine army right now.

pretty sure your average noob doesn't have 20 desolators

It's a reference to relative skill level required to pilot the list.

Breton wrote:

Karol wrote:
how does it doesn't trump the restriction. It say once per phase, even if it was used use it again.

Based on the wording of Rites, and the wording of the Restriction(s) on strats in general, and the Overwatch strat in specific.
Generic Strat Rules: "but you cannot use the same Stratagem more than once in the same phase."
Rites of Battle: "even if another unit from your army has already been targeted by that Stratagem this phase."
Overwatch: "One unit from your army that is within 24 inches" .... and .... "You can only use this Stratagem
once per turn".

It feels like Rites does get around "in the same phase" - they're mostly the same wording Rites Phase Empowerment cancels Strat Phase Restriction - but not "Once Per Turn" - different wording and increased restriction.

Agreed.

Flesh Hounds have a similar situation:

Pouncing Hunters: You can target this unit with the Heroic Intervention Stratagem for 0CP, and can do so even if
you have already used that Stratagem on a different unit this phase.

Fire Overwatch changes the default restriction from "once per phase" to "once per turn", and Rites of Battle goes:

Rites of Battle: Once per battle round, one unit from your army with this ability can be targeted by a Stratagem for 0CP, even if another unit from your army has already been targeted by that Stratagem this phase.

That's permission to overrule the basic restriction of using the same stratagem only once per phase, so those captains will be able to do things like multiple heroic interventions, but it's not enough to overrule Fire Overwatch's own restriction. Just like how in previous editions, deep striking in a land raider and getting out the assault ramp didn't allow a unit to assault after deep striking.