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This coming from an Eldar player, but wtf have GW done?
It’s beyond frustrating but the list of poor choices is mind blowing….

Fate Dice. 12 regardless if you’re playing 1000pts or 2000pts.
Got a bad roll? Don’t worry, just take out a dice and try again.

Wraithknights. How can you possibly point the double wraith cannon knight the same as the suncannon knight?

Dcannons
Fire prisms.

Throw in harlequins and Ynnari and you basically have a tool for every job.

Yes, points must be addressed, and Fate Dice, but what else?
I want to play my pointy ears without feeling dirty.

 bullyboy wrote:
How is GW going to fix Eldar?

Poorly.

They will nerf weapons and abilities whilst simultaneously increasing the points. They will introduce blanket game-wide restrictions on unit types because of some powerful units (or just one unit) in one army. Other armies will suffer due to the changes they make.

Are D-Cannons a problem given that you're limited to 3, rather than 9?

 bullyboy wrote:
This coming from an Eldar player, but wtf have GW done?
It’s beyond frustrating but the list of poor choices is mind blowing….

Fate Dice. 12 regardless if you’re playing 1000pts or 2000pts.
Got a bad roll? Don’t worry, just take out a dice and try again.

Wraithknights. How can you possibly point the double wraith cannon knight the same as the suncannon knight?

Dcannons
Fire prisms.

Throw in harlequins and Ynnari and you basically have a tool for every job.

Yes, points must be addressed, and Fate Dice, but what else?
I want to play my pointy ears without feeling dirty.

With a FAQ about 3-6 months from now after the players have found all the problems.

A lot of the issues are core rules related, so the core rules need to be addressed at the same time. Towering, Blast (esp on d3 shot weapons) Indirect and Devastating Wounds are just a couple of core rules problems and 3 of them converge on the Wraithknight. You could just remove devastating wounds off of the Wraithknight, but you'll still be eating 26 mortals from a squad of Possessed or being tabled turn 2 by a Tsons army.

Fate Dice at the least should work like Sisters in that a unit can only use one per phase.

In general though you almost need to lean into the stupid gak in the army if you're going to be playing an event. Marines, Knights and Custodes are these gigantic damage checks that cannot be overcome with the rest of the army unless you lean into a giant alpha strike list focused around Wraithknights. If those 3 factions were less popular you might be able to go a little easier, but they aint so even at an RTT you run the risk of all 3 of your games being tabled by those factions.

It's like an OP arms race.

speaking as someone with a sister's army, fate dice vs mircle dice is INSULTING.

"yeah so we gave eldar the sisters ability but we turned it up to 11"

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
How is GW going to fix Eldar?

Poorly.

They will nerf weapons and abilities whilst simultaneously increasing the points. They will introduce blanket game-wide restrictions on unit types because of some powerful units (or just one unit) in one army. Other armies will suffer due to the changes they make.

Are D-Cannons a problem given that you're limited to 3, rather than 9?

Nailed it.

They are incapable of balancing in moderation. Everything is these huge swings from terrible to amazing or vice versa. Wish they’d outsource the rules writing to a 3rd party team of competent games writers, or at least learn to playtest their own shoddy rules first.

nemesis464 wrote:


They are incapable of balancing in moderation. Everything is these huge swings from terrible to amazing or vice versa. Wish they’d outsource the rules writing to a 3rd party team of competent games writers, or at least learn to playtest their own shoddy rules first.

I call it the Rubber Band Effect. On the one hand, like stretching a rubber band to its limit the rebound is always pretty large. On the other hand it sure feels like they want to sting the people who find a combo and/or rules interaction they didn't find and don't approve of because that's the sin, not that they didn't catch it in the first place.

There are a couple of things they could do to help, but I don't think they'd solve the issues.

Fate dice, at the very least, should count as modified dice so you can't trigger Devastating Wounds from them. I'd actually take a leaf out of most other games' books here and specify re-rolls as modifying, so you can only proc DW on a natural Critical Wound roll, to prevent fishing for them if you have full wound re-rolls. Fate dice need a general makeover anyway. I assumed GW would allow SoB more ways to modify and mess with Miracle Dice than Eldar would have ways to do the same with Fate Dice, but the opposite may well be true. I don't understand why Eldar get to re-roll a bad set of dice while still getting lots of ways to manipulate the values in-game as well. I'd change that and add restrictions to how many can be used per unit and per phase.

Towering needs to change. Having such a rule on units that are overwhelmingly very powerful and durable is just bad design because its effects are not equal to both sides and potentially game-warping under some circumstances. I'd either go back to 9th edition's rule so it only works one way, or scrap it completely. That would partially fix the Wraithknight problem, but in reality it needs a big points increase. GW also needs to scrap their approach to points because it's abundantly clear it can't cope with units like Wraithknights that have multiple loadouts with big disparities in their power.

 Bosskelot wrote:
A lot of the issues are core rules related, so the core rules need to be addressed at the same time. Towering, Blast (esp on d3 shot weapons) Indirect and Devastating Wounds are just a couple of core rules problems and 3 of them converge on the Wraithknight. You could just remove devastating wounds off of the Wraithknight, but you'll still be eating 26 mortals from a squad of Possessed or being tabled turn 2 by a Tsons army.

Fate Dice at the least should work like Sisters in that a unit can only use one per phase.

In general though you almost need to lean into the stupid gak in the army if you're going to be playing an event. Marines, Knights and Custodes are these gigantic damage checks that cannot be overcome with the rest of the army unless you lean into a giant alpha strike list focused around Wraithknights. If those 3 factions were less popular you might be able to go a little easier, but they aint so even at an RTT you run the risk of all 3 of your games being tabled by those factions.

It's like an OP arms race.

For problems with the core rules, Mortal Wounds (the way they can spread across a unit) are a problem itself. It seems like a concept that's come from Age of Sigmar (?), but it seems to cause more problems than not. Perhaps they should change the distribution depending on source, e.g. from a weapon it's distributed like other wounds; from special rules [like falling back when battleshocked or suffering from exploding transports] you just count them up for unit as normal.

 Daba wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
A lot of the issues are core rules related, so the core rules need to be addressed at the same time. Towering, Blast (esp on d3 shot weapons) Indirect and Devastating Wounds are just a couple of core rules problems and 3 of them converge on the Wraithknight. You could just remove devastating wounds off of the Wraithknight, but you'll still be eating 26 mortals from a squad of Possessed or being tabled turn 2 by a Tsons army.

Fate Dice at the least should work like Sisters in that a unit can only use one per phase.

In general though you almost need to lean into the stupid gak in the army if you're going to be playing an event. Marines, Knights and Custodes are these gigantic damage checks that cannot be overcome with the rest of the army unless you lean into a giant alpha strike list focused around Wraithknights. If those 3 factions were less popular you might be able to go a little easier, but they aint so even at an RTT you run the risk of all 3 of your games being tabled by those factions.

It's like an OP arms race.

For problems with the core rules, Mortal Wounds (the way they can spread across a unit) are a problem itself. It seems like a concept that's come from Age of Sigmar (?), but it seems to cause more problems than not. Perhaps they should change the distribution depending on source, e.g. from a weapon it's distributed like other wounds; from special rules [like falling back when battleshocked or suffering from exploding transports] you just count them up for unit as normal.

Dev wounds is especially problematic because it modifies all damage into mortals and so even if you put a cap on mortals caused you then end up with awkward situations of transferring MWs into regular damage once they hit the mortals cap.

If I was to change it dev wounds would be mortals in addition to regular damage but gave a cap of 6 per unit, like many strats in 9th had.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
How is GW going to fix Eldar?

Poorly.

They will nerf weapons and abilities whilst simultaneously increasing the points. They will introduce blanket game-wide restrictions on unit types because of some powerful units (or just one unit) in one army. Other armies will suffer due to the changes they make.

Are D-Cannons a problem given that you're limited to 3, rather than 9?

while cynical you are likely spot on, I also suspect you will see one or two other factions getting some specific tools that help them fight Eldar, which will make them also obliterate other lower toughness forces

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
How is GW going to fix Eldar?

Poorly.

They will nerf weapons and abilities whilst simultaneously increasing the points. They will introduce blanket game-wide restrictions on unit types because of some powerful units (or just one unit) in one army. Other armies will suffer due to the changes they make.

Are D-Cannons a problem given that you're limited to 3, rather than 9?

Yep. I'm preparing to have miracle dice nerfed for the sins of the Eldar.

I wish I could disagree with you HBMC, but I can't. It is the future you see.

 Bosskelot wrote:
If I was to change it dev wounds would be mortals in addition to regular damage but gave a cap of 6 per unit, like many strats in 9th had.

That helps "haha, you land raider ceases to exist" - but I don't think stops the issue, which is that now people actually get a save, mortal wounds cascading through units represents a massive increase in damage.

I mean Eldar are probably the biggest culprits because they can guarantee it - but you have things like Biovores which can swing from doing nothing on low shots, to doing a bunch of mortals and just removing squads from the table as a result. Its always going to be hard to balance when the potential outcomes vary so much. People are always going to be rolling fewer or more sixes than they should.

We'll find out what the fix is next month at least, not a long wait.

According to new warcom video, looks like it’s dropping next week. Points and balance check.

 bullyboy wrote:
According to new warcom video, looks like it’s dropping next week. Points and balance check.

Should be fun watching them try to balance points in a game that no longer has them.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
According to new warcom video, looks like it’s dropping next week. Points and balance check.

Should be fun watching them try to balance points in a game that no longer has them.

Weird, I thought a wraithknight was 370 points?

And interestingly they DID slap Support Weapons early. The printed version sounds like it was still 3 and the index errata changes it to 1.

Dudeface wrote:
Weird, I thought a wraithknight was 370 points?

They can't call 'em points as much as they want. They're still just Power Level with an extra digit.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
According to new warcom video, looks like it’s dropping next week. Points and balance check.

Should be fun watching them try to balance points in a game that no longer has them.

They might just split the wraithknight into 2 units, one with the scatter shield and one weapon and the other with two non sword weapons. Given they refuse to use upgrade costs.

Unpopular opinion, but I actually don't give that much of a gak about Eldar. Or knights. Or any other OP army.(outside of my personal disdain for Strands of Fate)

I care about the dogshit armies. Sisters, Deathguard, Admech, Votann, whoever sucks right now.

I think fixing those armies so that those players can actually participate in the edition is a bigger deal than how many mortal wounds a Wraithknight does.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Weird, I thought a wraithknight was 370 points?

They can't call 'em points as much as they want. They're still just Power Level with an extra digit.

Like or not, they're a form of points. Otherwise you're open play take models off a shelf nobody gives a gak type of gaming, which clearly we aren't.

ERJAK wrote:
Unpopular opinion, but I actually don't give that much of a gak about Eldar. Or knights. Or any other OP army.(outside of my personal disdain for Strands of Fate)

I care about the dogshit armies. Sisters, Deathguard, Admech, Votann, whoever sucks right now.

I think fixing those armies so that those players can actually participate in the edition is a bigger deal than how many mortal wounds a Wraithknight does.

It's better to nerf from the top than to buff from the bottom, I think. That it it involves hitting fewer factions than having to buff all the underperformers. There's also a lot to be uncovered.

PenitentJake wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
How is GW going to fix Eldar?

Poorly.

They will nerf weapons and abilities whilst simultaneously increasing the points. They will introduce blanket game-wide restrictions on unit types because of some powerful units (or just one unit) in one army. Other armies will suffer due to the changes they make.

Are D-Cannons a problem given that you're limited to 3, rather than 9?

Yep. I'm preparing to have miracle dice nerfed for the sins of the Eldar.

I wish I could disagree with you HBMC, but I can't. It is the future you see.

The Exorcist (currently our only good unit) is going to get hit in the indirect changes as well, despite being perfectly fair even WITH miracle dice.

They did say "forms" of indirect fire. What that means could be anything, but it seems like they'd hit only the whacky ones. Hopefully...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Unpopular opinion, but I actually don't give that much of a gak about Eldar. Or knights. Or any other OP army.(outside of my personal disdain for Strands of Fate)

I care about the dogshit armies. Sisters, Deathguard, Admech, Votann, whoever sucks right now.

I think fixing those armies so that those players can actually participate in the edition is a bigger deal than how many mortal wounds a Wraithknight does.

It's better to nerf from the top than to buff from the bottom, I think. That it it involves hitting fewer factions than having to buff all the underperformers. There's also a lot to be uncovered.

You have to buff all the underperformers anyway. Changing things at the top only helps the guys in second place.

I would also argue that there's only a lot to be uncovered in the top armies or the armies that have radically reallocated their strength since 9th(DE being shooty now). Some of the indexes are very much solved, and most of those are the bad ones.

ERJAK wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Unpopular opinion, but I actually don't give that much of a gak about Eldar. Or knights. Or any other OP army.(outside of my personal disdain for Strands of Fate)

I care about the dogshit armies. Sisters, Deathguard, Admech, Votann, whoever sucks right now.

I think fixing those armies so that those players can actually participate in the edition is a bigger deal than how many mortal wounds a Wraithknight does.

It's better to nerf from the top than to buff from the bottom, I think. That it it involves hitting fewer factions than having to buff all the underperformers. There's also a lot to be uncovered.

You have to buff all the underperformers anyway. Changing things at the top only helps the guys in second place.

I would also argue that there's only a lot to be uncovered in the top armies or the armies that have radically reallocated their strength since 9th(DE being shooty now). Some of the indexes are very much solved, and most of those are the bad ones.

You do have to do both, but you should only do one at a time.

I hope they hit the top dogs and the bottom dwellers too.
I don’t know how they fix sisters, although dropping retributors points is.a must. Their lack of high end AT is a real issue as I think they messed up the exorcist stat line a while ago . Give the conflagration missiles indirect, but make the AT version direct and much higher strength and damage (because melta missiles).

 bullyboy wrote:
I hope they hit the top dogs and the bottom dwellers too.
I don’t know how they fix sisters, although dropping retributors points is.a must. Their lack of high end AT is a real issue as I think they messed up the exorcist stat line a while ago . Give the conflagration missiles indirect, but make the AT version direct and much higher strength and damage (because melta missiles).

I think the first step is take Anti-Vehicle 2+ off of Grav, and put Anti-Vehicle 3+ or 4+ on Melta. That's been the Anti-Vehicle element for so long and many factions/armies/units were designed around that division of labor, not some one-off element only really present on Space Marines.

 bullyboy wrote:
I hope they hit the top dogs and the bottom dwellers too.
I don’t know how they fix sisters, although dropping retributors points is.a must. Their lack of high end AT is a real issue as I think they messed up the exorcist stat line a while ago . Give the conflagration missiles indirect, but make the AT version direct and much higher strength and damage (because melta missiles).

That just makes it worse, honestly. You can't have it where only 1 unit in the army is capable of killing tanks. Your opponent will just nuke them the moment he sees them.