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As the title says. Veterans during 3rd & 4th 40K didn´t come by default with a Crux Terminatus as Terminators do. So do they belong to the 1st company of a chapter or are they still members of their origin company? This will be relevant as I intend to apply company/clan transfers to the models.

They were still members of the first company, they just haven't received training in the use of terminator armour. Which makes sense because even pretty famous chapters tended to not have nearly enough suits for a whole company.

The Crux can be worn on the shoulder pad or knee pad.
If they are Sternguard/Vanguard then they would be part of the 1st Company, which in the case of the Iron Hands means Clan Avernii.
The Iron Hands are very specific about each Clan's Astartes adopting the Clan so Veterans would only wear the emblem of the Avernii.

I’d have to check the old codexes to see if it’s called out specifically, but there are a few vets, who may or may not have earned their crux, as part of the company command squad.

IIRC:
Having a crux is not required to be a vet.
Not all vets are in the 1st.
Every marine with a crux is a vet
Some vets with cruxs will be in line companies, either as sarges, or command squads.

 Nevelon wrote:
I’d have to check the old codexes to see if it’s called out specifically, but there are a few vets, who may or may not have earned their crux, as part of the company command squad.

IIRC:
Having a crux is not required to be a vet.
Not all vets are in the 1st.
Every marine with a crux is a vet
Some vets with cruxs will be in line companies, either as sarges, or command squads.

This was my initial understanding too. Guess those Vets won´t receive the Avernii icon.

If we're talking Company Veterans then for a Codex Chapter they're the extra dudes in Command Squad.
Anything apart from that is 1st Company.

 Gert wrote:
If we're talking Company Veterans then for a Codex Chapter they're the extra dudes in Command Squad.
Anything apart from that is 1st Company.

Is or Was. If I remember/understand correctly - the progression is generally Scouts, Reserve Companies (Dev/Assault/Tactical) Battle companies (Dev Marine to Assault Marine to Tactical Marine to Sergeant) to First Company - then potentially back to the other companies as a Veteran Sergeant until there's an opening as a Lieutenant/Captain.

Even then with a Veteran moving to another Company after the 1st it's going to have to be really specific circumstances like the total destruction of the Command echelon. No Captain, no Command Squad, no Sergeants, that sort of thing.
But there still wouldn't be a full unit of Astartes in the 3rd Company running around with Crux Terminatus on their armour.

I would see a Veteran joining a Battle Company as a Sergeant would be fairly common.

Common enough but most Sergeants are promoted from individuals already in the Company to keep the bonds of brotherhood strong.
It's easier for a squad to accept a brother they know and have fought beside that one from an entirely different Company. A Sergeant taken from the 1st will have expert knowledge to pass on but can also breed resentment from the idea that the Chapter Command doesn't think anyone from the Company is good enough.

 Gert wrote:
Common enough but most Sergeants are promoted from individuals already in the Company to keep the bonds of brotherhood strong.
It's easier for a squad to accept a brother they know and have fought beside that one from an entirely different Company. A Sergeant taken from the 1st will have expert knowledge to pass on but can also breed resentment from the idea that the Chapter Command doesn't think anyone from the Company is good enough.

I have a recollection of marines being promoted to the 1st from a battle company, serving there for a bit, and then returning to their original company, either as sarges or command squad.

All I know is that in the books I've read officers tend to come from within the same Company and that generally when members of the 1st are deployed with another Company it's as force multipliers.
But people are going to have read different things.
The one thing that doesn't happen with Codex Chapters is Sternguard/Vanguard bearing the colours and emblems of anything but the 1st Company. Company Veterans in a Command Squad are the exception.

I checked the 3rd & 4th SM codex again. It states explicitly in both books that all Veterans irrespective of having a Crux Terminatus are members of the first company. So I was wrong in my last assessment.

The Codex Astartes does not actually state which company should be the veteran company, only that there should be a veteran company. By convention, in the vast majority of chapters this is the first company, but a Chapter could have a different tradition where a different company number is used for the veteran company.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Strg Alt wrote:
I checked the 3rd & 4th SM codex again. It states explicitly in both books that all Veterans irrespective of having a Crux Terminatus are members of the first company. So I was wrong in my last assessment.

That would suggest veteran sergeants and command squads are always seconded from the first company. This doesn't seem to be the case as such veterans often seem to be promoted up within their original company, although veterans are also transferred from the veteran company.

Again, though, different Chapters will have different traditions on this. The Dark Angels being a notable example in which there are distinct company veterans and 1st company terminators as separate entities. A company veteran would have to be inducted through the 1st (or maybe 2nd?) company in order to progress to captain due to the nature of the inner circle. Compare this to the Ultramarines, where we know acompany veteran sergeant can be promoted to captain (Uriel Ventris).

 Haighus wrote:
The Codex Astartes does not actually state which company should be the veteran company, only that there should be a veteran company. By convention, in the vast majority of chapters this is the first company, but a Chapter could have a different tradition where a different company number is used for the veteran company.

No, it's pretty clear that the 1st Company is always the Veteran Company within a Codex adherent Chapter. That's how the Codex works.

An Astartes starts in the 10th learning about the basics of Codex warfare before moving to the Reserve Companies learning the Fire Support (9th) and Close Support (8th) doctrines before transferring to the Reserve Battle Companies (7th and 6th) to prove that they have assimilated the teachings of the Codex. Once an Astartes has proven their worth they are then transferred into one of the Battle Companies (5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd) where they will specialise in one of their learned doctrines usually for the rest of their lives.
If an Astartes proves they are a cut above the rest, they may be inducted into the 1st Company, but they are not required to have served as a squad leader or officer for this to happen.

That would suggest veteran sergeants and command squads are always seconded from the first company. This doesn't seem to be the case as such veterans often seem to be promoted up within their original company, although veterans are also transferred from the veteran company.

There is a difference between the Crux and a standard Codex Veteran badge. A Veteran Sergeant can still be one without joining the First Company and bearing the Crux. The only requirement for a Sergeant to earn the title is a lengthy and glorious service record.
This goes back to the bit where there are Company Veterans who serve in a Command Squad but not as a distinct unit like a Tactical or Intercessor Squad.

Again, though, different Chapters will have different traditions on this. The Dark Angels being a notable example in which there are distinct company veterans and 1st company terminators as separate entities. A company veteran would have to be inducted through the 1st (or maybe 2nd?) company in order to progress to captain due to the nature of the inner circle. Compare this to the Ultramarines, where we know acompany veteran sergeant can be promoted to captain (Uriel Ventris).

The Inner Circle is separate from Company progression and every Captain, regardless of if they have served within the Deathwing and Ravenwing, is inducted due to the nature of the Unforgiven. Captains, Chaplains, Interrogator Chaplains, and Librarians are all automatically inducted into the Inner Circle with those who hold the highest Chapter offices for their given organisations such as the Master of the Forge and Chief Apothecary also inducted.

 Gert wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
The Codex Astartes does not actually state which company should be the veteran company, only that there should be a veteran company. By convention, in the vast majority of chapters this is the first company, but a Chapter could have a different tradition where a different company number is used for the veteran company.

No, it's pretty clear that the 1st Company is always the Veteran Company within a Codex adherent Chapter. That's how the Codex works.

An Astartes starts in the 10th learning about the basics of Codex warfare before moving to the Reserve Companies learning the Fire Support (9th) and Close Support (8th) doctrines before transferring to the Reserve Battle Companies (7th and 6th) to prove that they have assimilated the teachings of the Codex. Once an Astartes has proven their worth they are then transferred into one of the Battle Companies (5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd) where they will specialise in one of their learned doctrines usually for the rest of their lives.
If an Astartes proves they are a cut above the rest, they may be inducted into the 1st Company, but they are not required to have served as a squad leader or officer for this to happen.

From Insignium Astartes:

The Codex stipulates that a Chapter should reserve one of its Companies for its most experienced warriors and that they should be exclusively trained in the use of Terminator armour. Although the Codex is not clear about which Company this should be, the First Company is invariably chosen for this honour. The Company can be deployed as Veteran Squads or as Terminator Squads. This is the Chapter's most awesome combat element and it is rare for the entire Company to be fielded en masse. Most often the elite units of Veteran and Terminator Squads are attached to the other Companies or formed into smaller task forces for special operations.

Technically the company does not have to be the first, but at least every chapter we have lore on with numbered companies has chosen the first company as the veteran company.

Incidentally, Insignium Astartes is an amazing piece of lore for pre-Primaris Codex-compliant chapter organisation.

That would suggest veteran sergeants and command squads are always seconded from the first company. This doesn't seem to be the case as such veterans often seem to be promoted up within their original company, although veterans are also transferred from the veteran company.

There is a difference between the Crux and a standard Codex Veteran badge. A Veteran Sergeant can still be one without joining the First Company and bearing the Crux. The only requirement for a Sergeant to earn the title is a lengthy and glorious service record.
This goes back to the bit where there are Company Veterans who serve in a Command Squad but not as a distinct unit like a Tactical or Intercessor Squad.

Read the thread title- the OP is asking about non-crux veterans. In the quote that you have removed in your own quote, they were talking about how the 3rd and 4th ed codices state every veteran is in the 1st company, which is why I replied that not every veteran seems to have been a member of the 1st company before becoming a veteran in the case of the company veteran roles (veteran sergeants and command squad veterans). I think the codices are oversimplifying that, or referring specifically to veteran squads formed exclusively of veterans.

Edit: Ah! This is from the 4th edition SM codex:

So Space Marines typically become veteran sergeants in their own companies before joining the veteran company.

Again, though, different Chapters will have different traditions on this. The Dark Angels being a notable example in which there are distinct company veterans and 1st company terminators as separate entities. A company veteran would have to be inducted through the 1st (or maybe 2nd?) company in order to progress to captain due to the nature of the inner circle. Compare this to the Ultramarines, where we know acompany veteran sergeant can be promoted to captain (Uriel Ventris).

The Inner Circle is separate from Company progression and every Captain, regardless of if they have served within the Deathwing and Ravenwing, is inducted due to the nature of the Unforgiven. Captains, Chaplains, Interrogator Chaplains, and Librarians are all automatically inducted into the Inner Circle with those who hold the highest Chapter offices for their given organisations such as the Master of the Forge and Chief Apothecary also inducted.

It seems that masters are only selected from members of the Deathwing or Ravenwing. Part of the layers of secrets is that new information is revealed at each rank, and a master knows more that a member of the Deathwing. We have a good example in Master Balthasar, who was promoted to commander of the Dark Angels 5th company from Sergeant of the Deathwing squad attached to the company. It may be the case that members of the company could be promoted directly, but it seems unlikely given the way the Inner Circle is layered unless there was no other available option.

Edit: doublechecked and the 4th edition Dark Angels codex confirms that Company Masters are only promoted from the Deathwing, and induction into the Deathwing is required for progression into and through the Inner Circle.

 Haighus wrote:
Technically the company does not have to be the first, but at least every chapter we have lore on with numbered companies has chosen the first company as the veteran company.

Incidentally, Insignium Astartes is an amazing piece of lore for pre-Primaris Codex-compliant chapter organisation.

Yet every Codex since 2002 has made it clear that the 1st Company is the Veteran Company in a Codex Compliant Chapter. Quoting a book that's two decades old isn't exactly what I'd call good evidence.
And yes I am aware it had an MTO run in 2010.

It seems that masters are only selected from members of the Deathwing or Ravenwing. Part of the layers of secrets is that new information is revealed at each rank, and a master knows more that a member of the Deathwing. We have a good example in Master Balthasar, who was promoted to commander of the Dark Angels 5th company from Sergeant of the Deathwing squad attached to the company. It may be the case that members of the company could be promoted directly, but it seems unlikely given the way the Inner Circle is layered unless there was no other available option.

The Supreme Grand Master definitely has to serve in the Deathwing to get that title but not the Company Masters, especially not those of the Ravenwing.

Sammael was a member of the 8th Company before being inducted into the Ravenwing and eventually became its Master while Lazarus was a Sergeant in the 5th Company before being promoted to Company Master after the death of Balthazar. Belial also served as Master of the 3rd Company before being inducted into the Deathwing after Piscina IV.
More often than not Company Masters are still inducted from the ranks of the Company they serve in than taken from the Deathwing.

I was incorrect in stating that all Librarians are inducted rather it is just those most trusted by the Chapter Command. Chaplains seem to be a mix but the whole Reclusiasm of the Dark Angels is a mess thanks to the Interrogator Chaplains.

 Gert wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
Technically the company does not have to be the first, but at least every chapter we have lore on with numbered companies has chosen the first company as the veteran company.

Incidentally, Insignium Astartes is an amazing piece of lore for pre-Primaris Codex-compliant chapter organisation.

Yet every Codex since 2002 has made it clear that the 1st Company is the Veteran Company in a Codex Compliant Chapter. Quoting a book that's two decades old isn't exactly what I'd call good evidence.
And yes I am aware it had an MTO run in 2010.

Yes, every chapter with numbered companies I have ever come across does it that way. However, I don't think you can dismiss Insignium Astartes, a book dedicated to the organisation and markings of Codex chapters. The point is that a Chapter could assign a different company to be their veteran company and still be codex compliant, because apparently Guilliman didn't think that mattered much. The Decimal Warriors chapter from Decuria would still be a fully codex-compliant chapter if they were standard aside from the veterans being the tenth company due to its sacred nature in Decurian culture.

Yes, this is only relevant for homebrew chapters, but I like that they added that line for this reason.

It seems that masters are only selected from members of the Deathwing or Ravenwing. Part of the layers of secrets is that new information is revealed at each rank, and a master knows more that a member of the Deathwing. We have a good example in Master Balthasar, who was promoted to commander of the Dark Angels 5th company from Sergeant of the Deathwing squad attached to the company. It may be the case that members of the company could be promoted directly, but it seems unlikely given the way the Inner Circle is layered unless there was no other available option.

The Supreme Grand Master definitely has to serve in the Deathwing to get that title but not the Company Masters, especially not those of the Ravenwing.

Sammael was a member of the 8th Company before being inducted into the Ravenwing and eventually became its Master while Lazarus was a Sergeant in the 5th Company before being promoted to Company Master after the death of Balthazar. Belial also served as Master of the 3rd Company before being inducted into the Deathwing after Piscina IV.
More often than not Company Masters are still inducted from the ranks of the Company they serve in than taken from the Deathwing.

I was incorrect in stating that all Librarians are inducted rather it is just those most trusted by the Chapter Command. Chaplains seem to be a mix but the whole Reclusiasm of the Dark Angels is a mess thanks to the Interrogator Chaplains.

Well, the Ravenwing is odd and appears to be an alternative route into the Inner Circle. Its members have some secrets revealed, but less than a Deathwing member. Later lore has Black Knights as members of the Inner Circle, so presumably the Grand Master of the Ravenwing would likely be selected from these.

I cannot see anything to suggest Belial was not a member of the Deathwing prior to ascending to Company Master of the 3rd company- the 4th ed codex description of the battle against Furion even states his company "tore apart the attacking Chaos hordes with storm bolter and heavy weapon fire". Emphasis mine- this suggests the force was most likely terminators, although very few DA deployments don't include at least one Deathwing squad in support anyway. He was elevated from 3rd Company Master directly to Grand Master of the Deathwing following Piscina, not merely to a terminator. Lore through to 7th edition is consistent that company masters are selected from the Deathwing, although in later lore it is from Deathwing knights specifically.

I cannot comment on Lazarus as I don't have access to the newer DA lore, but he sounds like an exception rather than the norm for the Dark Angels.

I don't think this is going anywhere.
You think your sources are correct and I think mine are. We have different views on this and I think it's best to leave it here. I really don't care enough to have a big argument about it.