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Now that we've had more time to do a deeper dive, count points and/or reevaluate etc -

What did we think was a loser that isn't anymore?
What became a loser now that we've thought about it?
What is better than we first thought?
Did the price change to Desolation Squads make them into losers?


I've seen someone suggest a Bolter Drill Libby in a squad of Sternguard and after math-hammering it out they're not bad from Double Tap, though it still feels better to use your one-only Bolter Discipline on the Aggressors.

The Razorback was probably forgotten the first time around, and feels even worse than it was last edition with Sternguard going Primaris, Tac Squads turning into Always 10, and no Firing Deck.

??
Why would you complain that the RazorBack doesn't have firing deck?
It's never had a top hatch like the basic rhino. Thats the trade off of sticking a weapons turret on it.

As for units that've definitely lost?
Look no further than my ork Big Gunz. They slapped them with BS6+.

ccs wrote:
??
Why would you complain that the RazorBack doesn't have firing deck?
It's never had a top hatch like the basic rhino. Thats the trade off of sticking a weapons turret on it.

Top Hatch isn't the only way to get a Firing Deck - and I'm not complaining just pointing out the lack of a Firing Deck is one more knock on its usefulness it can't replace the "ablative" bodies a 10 man squad would have with its own like the Impulsor. Its just got far fewer things it can transport, and those things now have to get out and shoot removing things like "heavy".

As for units that've definitely lost?
Look no further than my ork Big Gunz. They slapped them with BS6+.

What are the Big Gunz called in the PDF?

Breton wrote:
What are the Big Gunz called in the PDF?

Mek Gunz

Oh, Razorbacks are still very relevant to me, I switched from fielding tac squads into fielding 5 man Assault Squads (without pcks) and 5 man Devastator squads instead.

Now with zero "troops tax" to pay, there isn't much point in fielding tacs at all anymore

Breton wrote:


What are the Big Gunz called in the PDF?

Big Gunz.

I've only played a few games, but I pretty much stand by my initial impressions.

Sisters are hurting from a lack of anti-tank. Extra hurt for having previously been one of the factions known for abundant anti-tank.

Eldar are still overtuned, and I wish they'd swap out Strands of Fate for something more interesting.

Dark eldar lost a lot. Their customization options and list diversity both dropped a lot. Their melee is mostly bad-to-meh now. Their shooting now has weird gaps thanks to poison becoming hyper-specialized against infantry and your lances now needing to spend more time shooting at actual tanks.

Breton wrote:
Now that we've had more time to do a deeper dive, count points and/or reevaluate etc -

What did we think was a loser that isn't anymore?
What became a loser now that we've thought about it?
What is better than we first thought?
Did the price change to Desolation Squads make them into losers?


I've seen someone suggest a Bolter Drill Libby in a squad of Sternguard and after math-hammering it out they're not bad from Double Tap, though it still feels better to use your one-only Bolter Discipline on the Aggressors.

The Razorback was probably forgotten the first time around, and feels even worse than it was last edition with Sternguard going Primaris, Tac Squads turning into Always 10, and no Firing Deck.

Deathwatch is definitely a loser, now that we've had the Assault cannon shenanigans removed. 3 out of the 4 kill teams are dogcrap, and the only one left is only good if you max out on termies, otherwise just take Veterans. Veterans are pretty good, but the cost really cuts, as does their absolute gutting of wargear. As such, I've found that DW really suffer into terminators and vehicles, especially the latter, and while the former can be dealt with in melee, the latter is unassailable from the teams besides maybe hammer vets. Deathwatch termies are fine but they got the Assault termie rule which hurts them a lot, and the bikes are fine if you wanted melee bikes. Corvus sucks hard too. Strats and enhancements are solid, but encourage you to take kill teams which, as I mentioned, are really trash besides one, and if Vet squads didn't count as kill teams we'd be in a worse spot. The detachment rule is fine, but it stops working after turn 3, which, given our lack of board presence, can be a big pain.

All in all:

Pre-existing DW armies got fethed hard
New ones are a mess due to weird box restrictions and wargear builds being invalid even in the kit instructions
They suffer from a severe lack of board presence
A harsh inability to deal with TEQ's and Vehicles cheaply (relatively, since no Devestators)

If you want to play as DW at this point, Just play the mainline marine detachment and toss in a vet squad or two and maybe a Watch master and ignore the rest, if you want actually be competetive. You can do alright in casual, but any vehicle/TEQ skews, or armies with regenning troops (I.E. GSC and Necrons), will really dumpster you.

Losers: people who enjoyed an almost building system that wasn’t embarrassingly shallow

Winners: Little Timmy who can’t do basic math

nemesis464 wrote:
Losers: people who enjoyed an almost building system that wasn’t embarrassingly shallow

Winners: Little Timmy who can’t do basic math

You know there's already a thread where you can post your hate for the new system and players who play "wrong"? This is the thread to say things like:

Terminators are still good, but not as good as I initially thought.

Sniper Scouts are even better than I thought.

There's a path to using the Phobos Captain outside of a gimmicky Army of Reknown, especially for non DA/UM Chapters.

The Primarch + Techmarine + Tanks combo to activate lone operative was a (relatively) recent combo to me. Just opens up more army styles for them

Kalkyrie wrote:
The Primarch + Techmarine + Tanks combo to activate lone operative was a (relatively) recent combo to me. Just opens up more army styles for them

It is a good one, I think I lean more towards Primarch + Phobos Libby + Infiltrators - the tanks can still be shot at, but nothing in this bubble can outside of 12", the Infiltrators prevent a Bomb attack - but its still a good one and tanks + Primarch for assault has more upside once it is engagement time so six of one. You can also do it with Techmarines and Redemptor Dreads which has slightly more appeal - they can punch and they can shoot, plus they've got Duty Eternal. On the flip side, a couple Impulsors with Shield Domes around the Techmarine also has appeal - Bladeguard inside, behind a 5++ protecting the techmarine protecting the Primarch

That's one thing I like about this new edition there are just so many ways to go.

Purgators after the indirect shoting nerf, when they didn't really have real indirect, went from a tech choice to a never take choice. Worse part is that their optimal version was the one armed with flamer, which required them to get within 12" of the enemy unit, so even if they had ignore LoS, through another GK unit being in the open, they were still very close the enemy army. Nothing like the desolators with their hyper range, and ignoring penalities (GK heavy weapons aren't heavy, but have the lowe BS for shoting). Ah and now they cost more then desolators for 4 heavy weapons in the squad vs 5-10 weapons.

NDK went from a must have and only unit that can do damage, to a NDK would the only unit that can do damge in the entire GK codex, if they weren't being killed so easy.

no str 8 melee weapon, while costing like an elite custodes like army(with worse stats) is bad.

The nerf to psychic was a huge bomb, not only do some units have psychic slapped on stuff other armies can do as normal skill, but they also don't gain nothing from the psychic trait. On the flip side the anti psyker stuff of other armies goes from potentialy fringe useful, to hyper efficient. GK are, once again, the worse army to fight against demons.

Everthing in the army is overcosted and sub part, when comparing to other marine, marine like or elite armies. Bar one thing, teleporting around. That GK do very well. Only the less to learn from early 10th is that armies with just move, and no ability to do primaries or stop opponents from doing them, do not work.

Breton wrote:

It is a good one, I think I lean more towards Primarch + Phobos Libby + Infiltrators - the tanks can still be shot at, but nothing in this bubble can outside of 12", the Infiltrators prevent a Bomb attack - but its still a good one and tanks + Primarch for assault has more upside once it is engagement time so six of one. You can also do it with Techmarines and Redemptor Dreads which has slightly more appeal - they can punch and they can shoot, plus they've got Duty Eternal. On the flip side, a couple Impulsors with Shield Domes around the Techmarine also has appeal - Bladeguard inside, behind a 5++ protecting the techmarine protecting the Primarch

That's one thing I like about this new edition there are just so many ways to go.

Thanks for these combo ideas - just opens up a bunch more army ideas!


On another note, it sounds like a bunch of Firstborn are now losers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbiSht5FLWc
While some of them may be getting replaced with Primaris versions in the Autumn, losing Firstborn bikes and speeders is painful.

Kalkyrie wrote:

Breton wrote:

It is a good one, I think I lean more towards Primarch + Phobos Libby + Infiltrators - the tanks can still be shot at, but nothing in this bubble can outside of 12", the Infiltrators prevent a Bomb attack - but its still a good one and tanks + Primarch for assault has more upside once it is engagement time so six of one. You can also do it with Techmarines and Redemptor Dreads which has slightly more appeal - they can punch and they can shoot, plus they've got Duty Eternal. On the flip side, a couple Impulsors with Shield Domes around the Techmarine also has appeal - Bladeguard inside, behind a 5++ protecting the techmarine protecting the Primarch

That's one thing I like about this new edition there are just so many ways to go.

Thanks for these combo ideas - just opens up a bunch more army ideas!


On another note, it sounds like a bunch of Firstborn are now losers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbiSht5FLWc
While some of them may be getting replaced with Primaris versions in the Autumn, losing Firstborn bikes and speeders is painful.

The bikes not so much - Primaris Bike Squads had already aligned with them. I'm amazed they're doing it "mid-edition" than at the very beginning. I'm not sure that was the best (long term) business decision. People who bought any of that stuff recently will be fairly unhappy - and Assault Squads and Sniper Scouts probably hit a big selling point for them with their 10th Ed PDF.

Breton wrote:

Kalkyrie wrote:

Breton wrote:

It is a good one, I think I lean more towards Primarch + Phobos Libby + Infiltrators - the tanks can still be shot at, but nothing in this bubble can outside of 12", the Infiltrators prevent a Bomb attack - but its still a good one and tanks + Primarch for assault has more upside once it is engagement time so six of one. You can also do it with Techmarines and Redemptor Dreads which has slightly more appeal - they can punch and they can shoot, plus they've got Duty Eternal. On the flip side, a couple Impulsors with Shield Domes around the Techmarine also has appeal - Bladeguard inside, behind a 5++ protecting the techmarine protecting the Primarch

That's one thing I like about this new edition there are just so many ways to go.

Thanks for these combo ideas - just opens up a bunch more army ideas!


On another note, it sounds like a bunch of Firstborn are now losers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbiSht5FLWc
While some of them may be getting replaced with Primaris versions in the Autumn, losing Firstborn bikes and speeders is painful.

The bikes not so much - Primaris Bike Squads had already aligned with them. I'm amazed they're doing it "mid-edition" than at the very beginning. I'm not sure that was the best (long term) business decision. People who bought any of that stuff recently will be fairly unhappy - and Assault Squads and Sniper Scouts probably hit a big selling point for them with their 10th Ed PDF.

Well, if any of those people are unhappy enough? All they have to do is change their attitudes concerning using Legends in thier non-tourney games.
If they insist on living in tourney mode for every game? Then they deserve to be unhappy.

ccs wrote:

Breton wrote:

Kalkyrie wrote:

Breton wrote:

It is a good one, I think I lean more towards Primarch + Phobos Libby + Infiltrators - the tanks can still be shot at, but nothing in this bubble can outside of 12", the Infiltrators prevent a Bomb attack - but its still a good one and tanks + Primarch for assault has more upside once it is engagement time so six of one. You can also do it with Techmarines and Redemptor Dreads which has slightly more appeal - they can punch and they can shoot, plus they've got Duty Eternal. On the flip side, a couple Impulsors with Shield Domes around the Techmarine also has appeal - Bladeguard inside, behind a 5++ protecting the techmarine protecting the Primarch

That's one thing I like about this new edition there are just so many ways to go.

Thanks for these combo ideas - just opens up a bunch more army ideas!


On another note, it sounds like a bunch of Firstborn are now losers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbiSht5FLWc
While some of them may be getting replaced with Primaris versions in the Autumn, losing Firstborn bikes and speeders is painful.

The bikes not so much - Primaris Bike Squads had already aligned with them. I'm amazed they're doing it "mid-edition" than at the very beginning. I'm not sure that was the best (long term) business decision. People who bought any of that stuff recently will be fairly unhappy - and Assault Squads and Sniper Scouts probably hit a big selling point for them with their 10th Ed PDF.

Well, if any of those people are unhappy enough? All they have to do is change their attitudes concerning using Legends in thier non-tourney games.
If they insist on living in tourney mode for every game? Then they deserve to be unhappy.

That depends on how legends is treated. In 8th those profiles/points were almost never updated iirc. It felt more like a "here, we gave 'em stats already, now quit whining" from gw. I missed how 9th handled legends though, maybe there's hope?

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

Deathwatch is definitely a loser, now that we've had the Assault cannon shenanigans removed. 3 out of the 4 kill teams are dogcrap, and the only one left is only good if you max out on termies, otherwise just take Veterans. Veterans are pretty good, but the cost really cuts, as does their absolute gutting of wargear. As such, I've found that DW really suffer into terminators and vehicles, especially the latter, and while the former can be dealt with in melee, the latter is unassailable from the teams besides maybe hammer vets. Deathwatch termies are fine but they got the Assault termie rule which hurts them a lot, and the bikes are fine if you wanted melee bikes. Corvus sucks hard too. Strats and enhancements are solid, but encourage you to take kill teams which, as I mentioned, are really trash besides one, and if Vet squads didn't count as kill teams we'd be in a worse spot. The detachment rule is fine, but it stops working after turn 3, which, given our lack of board presence, can be a big pain.

All in all:

Pre-existing DW armies got fethed hard
New ones are a mess due to weird box restrictions and wargear builds being invalid even in the kit instructions
They suffer from a severe lack of board presence
A harsh inability to deal with TEQ's and Vehicles cheaply (relatively, since no Devestators)

If you want to play as DW at this point, Just play the mainline marine detachment and toss in a vet squad or two and maybe a Watch master and ignore the rest, if you want actually be competetive. You can do alright in casual, but any vehicle/TEQ skews, or armies with regenning troops (I.E. GSC and Necrons), will really dumpster you.

interesting... I've actually heard mostly the opposite.

bored1 wrote:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

Deathwatch is definitely a loser, now that we've had the Assault cannon shenanigans removed. 3 out of the 4 kill teams are dogcrap, and the only one left is only good if you max out on termies, otherwise just take Veterans. Veterans are pretty good, but the cost really cuts, as does their absolute gutting of wargear. As such, I've found that DW really suffer into terminators and vehicles, especially the latter, and while the former can be dealt with in melee, the latter is unassailable from the teams besides maybe hammer vets. Deathwatch termies are fine but they got the Assault termie rule which hurts them a lot, and the bikes are fine if you wanted melee bikes. Corvus sucks hard too. Strats and enhancements are solid, but encourage you to take kill teams which, as I mentioned, are really trash besides one, and if Vet squads didn't count as kill teams we'd be in a worse spot. The detachment rule is fine, but it stops working after turn 3, which, given our lack of board presence, can be a big pain.

All in all:

Pre-existing DW armies got fethed hard
New ones are a mess due to weird box restrictions and wargear builds being invalid even in the kit instructions
They suffer from a severe lack of board presence
A harsh inability to deal with TEQ's and Vehicles cheaply (relatively, since no Devestators)

If you want to play as DW at this point, Just play the mainline marine detachment and toss in a vet squad or two and maybe a Watch master and ignore the rest, if you want actually be competetive. You can do alright in casual, but any vehicle/TEQ skews, or armies with regenning troops (I.E. GSC and Necrons), will really dumpster you.

interesting... I've actually heard mostly the opposite.

it really all depends on the armies you're fighting. DW can be made to work, but now with the Dev-wounds shenanigans gone, DW, really suffer into any vehicle or regenning army. Necrons especially because we just don't pack the firepower to kill them, especially now that key units to help like the Land Speeder are going away. (Assuming tournament use, in friendly games where you can still use them they ball). If you and your friends are okay with Legends, then your options skyrocket. The Imperial Space marine, Land Speeder, and the Rapier battery being particular stand-outs.

Deathwatch are considered one of the strongest Marine chapters currently. Last I checked they were sitting at a 52-55% winrate in event games.*

*which also means that when the obvious busted stuff like elves and GSC are fixed they might end up becoming a problem themselves

You might find these lists interesting ProfSrlojohn I hope you find some luck with your faction https://40kstats.goonhammer.com/#ft4-deathwatch

 vict0988 wrote:
You might find these lists interesting ProfSrlojohn I hope you find some luck with your faction https://40kstats.goonhammer.com/#ft4-deathwatch

List was exactly what I expected. 3 Veteran squads, and then maxed out Desolation Squads and Lancers. Use of the spectrus in one is funny, but I can't imagine it staying for long.

The other is literally all mainline marine stuff, just using our detachment. The only DW specific item in the list is the Tome of Ectolades, arguably one of the most broken enhancements, in that it lets you functionally pick a second oaths target while not triggering oath-related abilities.

 Bosskelot wrote:
Deathwatch are considered one of the strongest Marine chapters currently. Last I checked they were sitting at a 52-55% winrate in event games.*

*which also means that when the obvious busted stuff like elves and GSC are fixed they might end up becoming a problem themselves

That's moreso because the other marine chapters are in an even worse state. If you look at those lists it's all regular busted marine stuff, and deathwatch vets, because if you want battleline options you couldn't ask for a better choice. Whenever mainline marines are adjusted, Deathwatch will fall with it, especially as they start nerfing the Marine AT options.

I'm confused. Your argument is that deathwatch is really good because it uses "regular busted marine stuff", but that marines are "in an even worse state".

While also DW sit at win rates probably within margin of error of the notable meta boogeymen, while also significantly higher than most marines.

bored1 wrote:
I'm confused. Your argument is that deathwatch is really good because it uses "regular busted marine stuff", but that marines are "in an even worse state".

While also DW sit at win rates probably within margin of error of the notable meta boogeymen, while also significantly higher than most marines.

It was a "Woe is me" complaint about his entire faction without specific examples in a thread about units that are better or worse than originally thought. This was just - I'd move on to the topic and talk about something better or worse than we originally thought at PDF release.

bored1 wrote:
I'm confused. Your argument is that deathwatch is really good because it uses "regular busted marine stuff", but that marines are "in an even worse state".

While also DW sit at win rates probably within margin of error of the notable meta boogeymen, while also significantly higher than most marines.

I was referring to the other unique marine factions (DA, BA, BT, & SW), the actual mainline marine status is in debate as always due to the usual slate of arguments for and against. My point was that if you look at the DW lists, they're either all mainline marine stuff using the DW detachment or with some combination of Watch Master and Veterans mixed in. The fact that the one guy used a spectrus team astounds me, but it;s also a anti-meta pick. As soon as infiltrate dies down it'll lose it's utility. That's 5, arguably 6 with the spectrus, DW units out of 8 that are not seeing play.

My point is that people thought deathwatch would be dominant when they were to come out, they are not. The Deathwatch detachment is dominant, but only a couple of DW units are actually seeing use. That is what I'm trying to get out.

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

bored1 wrote:
I'm confused. Your argument is that deathwatch is really good because it uses "regular busted marine stuff", but that marines are "in an even worse state".

While also DW sit at win rates probably within margin of error of the notable meta boogeymen, while also significantly higher than most marines.

I was referring to the other unique marine factions (DA, BA, BT, & SW), the actual mainline marine status is in debate as always due to the usual slate of arguments for and against. My point was that if you look at the DW lists, they're either all mainline marine stuff using the DW detachment or with some combination of Watch Master and Veterans mixed in. The fact that the one guy used a spectrus team astounds me, but it;s also a anti-meta pick. As soon as infiltrate dies down it'll lose it's utility. That's 5, arguably 6 with the spectrus, DW units out of 8 that are not seeing play.

My point is that people thought deathwatch would be dominant when they were to come out, they are not. The Deathwatch detachment is dominant, but only a couple of DW units are actually seeing use. That is what I'm trying to get out.

Regardless of how well GSC are doing in tourney's atm this reminds me of how GSC armies (from their release to present) are still almost entirely formed without Genestealers being used. One of the most iconic Xenos species in the game; I mean I still use my 35 year old Genestealer models from the 1st edition Space Hulk box set.

9th edition GSC gained Crossfire. An army named for 4-armed creatures, that for decades had ZERO shooting ability, shooting army rule...
And in 10th, GSC armies are still "shooting" armies; with their lists crammed with as many mining lasers as possible in it.

My loser: most GSC melee units. Left by the wayside for mining laser spam.

 Lord Clinto wrote:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

bored1 wrote:
I'm confused. Your argument is that deathwatch is really good because it uses "regular busted marine stuff", but that marines are "in an even worse state".

While also DW sit at win rates probably within margin of error of the notable meta boogeymen, while also significantly higher than most marines.

I was referring to the other unique marine factions (DA, BA, BT, & SW), the actual mainline marine status is in debate as always due to the usual slate of arguments for and against. My point was that if you look at the DW lists, they're either all mainline marine stuff using the DW detachment or with some combination of Watch Master and Veterans mixed in. The fact that the one guy used a spectrus team astounds me, but it;s also a anti-meta pick. As soon as infiltrate dies down it'll lose it's utility. That's 5, arguably 6 with the spectrus, DW units out of 8 that are not seeing play.

My point is that people thought deathwatch would be dominant when they were to come out, they are not. The Deathwatch detachment is dominant, but only a couple of DW units are actually seeing use. That is what I'm trying to get out.

Regardless of how well GSC are doing in tourney's atm this reminds me of how GSC armies (from their release to present) are still almost entirely formed without Genestealers being used. One of the most iconic Xenos species in the game; I mean I still use my 35 year old Genestealer models from the 1st edition Space Hulk box set.

9th edition GSC gained Crossfire. An army named for 4-armed creatures, that for decades had ZERO shooting ability, shooting army rule...
And in 10th, GSC armies are still "shooting" armies; with their lists crammed with as many mining lasers as possible in it.

My loser: most GSC melee units. Left by the wayside for mining laser spam.

As a player of both, that's basically it. DW are winning without DW actually being used.

Deathwatch are in a pretty good place, honestly.

The Indomintor team is pretty great with a Captain and maybe Biologis. The latter you can probably get away with dropping if you rely on punching through high toughness targets on the army wide Lethal Hits turn. Teleporting them around for free lets you deal with most of the game's problems quite effectively.

Proteus is solid, though the base vets are just really good on their own with Infernus and Hammers or Shields if you want them to hold objectives. Frags are pretty great with SIA as well, particularly with Kraken rounds. Watch Master is really strong. Thief, Beacon and Tome are all really strong. There's plenty of strong DW datasheets and making good use of our unique strats makes them even better.

It feels like this is more a complaint about a specific vision of what DW should be limited to rather than an appraisal of what the army is.

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

My point is that people thought deathwatch would be dominant when they were to come out, they are not. The Deathwatch detachment is dominant, but only a couple of DW units are actually seeing use. That is what I'm trying to get out.

People, especialy those who didn't play the army claimed GK were up there with eldar in being broken, asked for nerfs. There is still call out for marine nerfs and OotM being too powerful, when marine are on sub 50% win rates. When it comes to marine armies and marine rules, a lot of "people" use their dislike of the factions as guides, rather then actual army strenght.

DW has like...3 units. It's space marines with a different subfaction rule and paint scheme, except for the troop squads and the mixed-unit kill teams. That's what it's been for ages.

You need anti-tank? You have the entire, collossal, gigantic space marine unit roster to pick from and OOM.

And before you start - i play DW. I just don't pretend "only veteran squads and kill teams" is the army.