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Not Online!!! wrote:
You are considering playing a hobby that is set up as a quasi historical.

No it isn't. The game as published by GW is set up just like every other game GW publishes. The "quasi-historical" thing is purely a creation of certain players who have decided on The Correct Way To Play 30k and gatekeep out anyone who doesn't comply with their standards.


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 niv-mizzet wrote:
Damn, I was thinking about branching out to HH but the staggering amount of elitism is a huge turn off.

Don't worry about it. Online 30k forums are an echo chamber where the rivet counters discourage anyone else from participating. Offline things tend to be much better and people will welcome the chance to get games at all, while the rivet counters sulk alone in the corner with nobody to play against.


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chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, gotta say - accusing hobbyists of gatekeeping because they insist on other hobbyists meeting the baseline expectations of engaging in that hobby is a wild hot take.

They aren't the baseline expectations. They're the expectations you have added onto the game because you expect people to comply with your aesthetic preferences. You can insist that every shoulder pad in your army must have exactly the correct number of rivets according to the interpretation of the 30k lore published in the FW books but that is your own standard you've created, not something found in the game as published by GW.

And let's not be hyperbolic about Angry Marines or whatever meme nonsense you want to compare 40k models to. We're talking about subtle differences in minor details, details that are indistinguishable at tabletop distances and that most players wouldn't be able to recognize if you had the models side by side. Show an average person a 30k shoulder pad and a 40k shoulder pad, I doubt they'll have any clue which one is which or even understand that there's supposed to be a difference between them.


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 lord_blackfang wrote:
And you likewise have an entirely personal, pick and choose threshold of what is and isn't WYSIWYG depending on what suits you at the moment (where a guy in power armour with a bolt gun for some reason can't be a 40k marine but can be a 30k marine even though it does not match the lore of how marines looked in that period) and are expecting others to conform to it.

There is nothing personal about it. I have already explained multiple times that the reason I reject the third-party models is because it is not clear what their equipment is meant to be, not because of subjective lore or aesthetic factors. No such ambiguity exists with the official GW models being discussed here.

Meanwhile HH Black books etc exist .

Yeah no, come back when you can formulate an argument that is not baseline illogical.

I think people are focussing too much on Power Armour patterns and not the problem where a 40k Marine army isn't a HH one. Of the mainstay Firstborn units (Tacticals, Assault Marines, Devastators) only one can be used as a direct swap in HH, Assault Marines.
Legion Tacticals can't take Heavy or Special weapons and Legion Heavies have to use the same type of weapon for the whole unit. Got a Scout Squad with a Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher? Too bad you can't use that because Scouts in HH can't take those. Got a Vanguard Veteran unit? Not anymore you don't because there's no basic Legion equivalent.
Throw in Centurions, any of the flyers, Razorbacks, Land Speeder Storms, Thunderfire Cannons, two Land Raider variants, and the AA tanks into the "can't be used" pile as well.

So either you're running a Pride of the Legion army for the rest of your days with no real fire support, Lords of War, aircraft, unique Legion units, Characters, or Primarchs, or you're buying new units.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Meanwhile HH Black books etc exist .

Yeah no, come back when you can formulate an argument that is not baseline illogical.

An illogical argument like "books exist"? The 30k books are just like 40k books and the mere existence of lore does not mean your personal aesthetic preferences are part of the game.


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 Gert wrote:
I think people are focussing too much on Power Armour patterns and not the problem where a 40k Marine army isn't a HH one.

Because the question in the OP was about models, not using a 40k army exactly as-is with no additional or modified units.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
Because the question in the OP was about models, not using a 40k army exactly as-is with no additional or modified units.

The title of the topic is nowhere near that specific and the point has been brought up before in this thread, within the first few posts actually.

The fact remains that unless a 40k Marine army makes a lot of changes to its roster or puts a lot of models on the sideline, then it won't function as a HH army in most cases.

Lets get this thread back on track eh? Lets stop the circular argument and get back to the topic.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
You are considering playing a hobby that is set up as a quasi historical.

No it isn't. The game as published by GW is set up just like every other game GW publishes. The "quasi-historical" thing is purely a creation of certain players who have decided on The Correct Way To Play 30k and gatekeep out anyone who doesn't comply with their standards.


[

You may want to crack open you Age of Darkness rulebook to where it discusses the game as explicitly being a game set amidst the civil war between the forces of Horus and the Emperor and the forces that partook in it. You can always skim through the section about all the different Armour marks used during said conflict and note the absence of anything beyond mk6, etc. All GW games are by definition quasi-historical as you are playing within the context of a fictional timeline, but in the case of HH its more explicit (or implicit) as the rulebook literally states that you are playing put the narrative that sets the foundation for warhammer 40k, whereas the 40k rulebook is more open ended in saying that players are forging their own narrative.

They aren't the baseline expectations. They're the expectations you have added onto the game because you expect people to comply with your aesthetic preferences.

Except that they are? Any sensible persons expectation when playing a game called "The Horus Heresy" is that they will be playing a game suitably representative of the setting it is named after, featuring forces representative of the forces that fought in that conflict. I don't go into a game of Team Yankee expecting to fight a World War 1 army, nor do I come into a game of Horus Heresy expecting to fight a Warhammer 40k space marine chapter. The rulebook and product line are entirely structured around the concept that you and your opponent will be playing games simulating battles of the Horus Heresy using miniatures modeled and painted to be representative of the factions that featured in said conflict. There's no provision, allowance, encouragement t, or discussion to be found of deviating from that expectation, because the idea of adhering to the games narrative is implicit in its design and packaging.

It's not about "aesthetic preferences", it's about using the product the way its actually marketed and directed to be used.

Oh look, another thread almost completely derailed by a poster known to jump into random threads and throwing around borderline flamebait and bad-faith arguments. Can we not just ignore this please?

To get back to the topic: I think the "40K Marines in HH" is a bit like "using unpainted models to play". For your first few games it is completely okay, and if your whole group is happy with playing like this, it is just fine overall. Playing in a group with an established standard of "we only play with painted models" will get some eyebrows raised if you show up with those same grey hordes again and again. The similarity is linked to the effort you put in: nobody will complain about 40K Marines used for your first games of HH or to try out things before making an investment. With some time a certain established standard is expected though - and it is definitely not "just play 40K Marines as is".

None of this is an issue if you play Ruinstorm Daemons.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
They are making an effort to support it. They're bringing their armies and asking to play games with you. The community is not the same as your personal aesthetic preferences and rivet counting.

That's not what Gert or anyone else is saying. You are ignoring the difference between "I'll only play against FW Heresy models" and "At least make an effort to make them look as though they belong in the Heresy period". And the difference between WH40k Marines and Heresy-era Marines isn't just a matter of personal aesthetic. It's in the fluff, the artwork and the models.

so because GW is doing bad things, we must be angry at the players

well, overall with the very same arguments, one can go the AoS Community and ask if they are fine if people come up and play the 40k models as Stormcasts because GW removed them from 40k and they don't look that different to Stormcast anyway
and it is easier to proxy them in AoS than in 40k as the people there won't allow it

the easy solution is be angry at GW and let them know
instead of be angry at the players who don't let you play your 40k army in a different game until GW tell you are allowed to play them in 40k again
(and than, how will GW check if you play 40k with your old models instead of the new ones?)

 kodos wrote:
the easy solution is be angry at GW and let them know
instead of be angry at the players who don't let you play your 40k army in a different game until GW tell you are allowed to play them in 40k again
(and than, how will GW check if you play 40k with your old models instead of the new ones?)

Why be angry? Everyone on the frigging internet is so quick to find things to be angry about. It's a hobby - enjoy it.

why are people angry if the company making the game, removes models they bought for a premium price from the game?

yeah, just buy more stuff and enjoy "the hobby" of buying GW models

 kodos wrote:
why are people angry if the company making the game, removes models they bought for a premium price are removed from the game?

yeah, just buy more stuff and enjoy "the hobby" of buying GW models

This.

Just as with AAA videogames the community has too long been too forgiving to gw.

Be angry if you want just keep those vibes to yourself.
HH has enough problems with grognards as it is without people dragging their anger at current 40k into it.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
None of this is an issue if you play Ruinstorm Daemons.

This made me think: what do HH players usually use for Daemons?

If models from the 40K range get you weird looks, are regular AoS/40K armies of GW daemons getting any flak? Those two things are a bit different, but they share the "no effort" part, as you can use AoS/40K daemons without issues - but in the HH background the Ruinstorm daemons tend to be described more generic if I remember correctly, and the FW models are their own thing.

While I see no problem with using the "normal" GW daemons, for my own Ruinstorm force I want to use mostly third party models. For all the hate I give Mantic for their crappy sculpts, there are some pretty cool hard-plastic kits they do that fit my idea of generic daemons perfectly (see exhibits A and B).

Daemons are one of the armies where the rules team explicitly said "there is no baseline for this army".
The other was Militia.
Obviously from the corporate perspective that means "use whatever GW models you want and let your imagination run free" but in real world terms it's "do what you want".
Gentlefolks understanding that if you're using say Custodes models, you'd be using Custodes rules.
But if someone rocked up to an event with an Ork army and said they were using either Daemon or Militia rules I'd be down for that as long as it was clear what everything was.
Common sense still needs to prevail.

 Gert wrote:
Be angry if you want just keep those vibes to yourself.
HH has enough problems with grognards as it is without people dragging their anger at current 40k into it.

GW. Not 40k GW.

And no, i think clamping down on it won't make it any better,

I think this thread has run its course...

It seems any topic that can become a flashpoint for a gatekeeping/elitism/snobbery vs hobby always ends up there.

the best position is somewhere in the middle, respecting what 30k is and what it represents and the time and effort that long standing gamers have put into keeping the system alive, while also being open to different takes on the hobby and people's desire to put their own spin on it. I'm sure we can all agree on that.

I've got a big conversion project coming up with a bunch of these legended units that I've had sitting around for months/years, while we can argue about how much effort = Heresy and how much is just you being cheap and porting a whole 40k army over with zero effort, my reason for doing it is none of that. it's really just because I like the models, they're cheap, they're available in plastic, they're easy to customise and convert and they add a bit of flavour to some army ranges that don't have a lot of personality. If I've got 5 land speeders I don't want them to all look the same, same goes for squad sergeants - I like to use old Games Day captains and metal veterans to make the squads more interesting.

Personally if I had to limit myself to just Heresy components that would be boring from a modelling and painting perspective because there's just such limited options compared to the 30+ years of old marine bits and pieces that are available 2nd hand for pretty cheap. Sometimes they aren't 100% era appropriate, but I make an effort.

Really GW is to blame for this, long term lack of plastic support for Heresy and ever escalating prices, more and more overpriced boring kits with lack of customization options and parts. Compared to companies like Wargames Atlantic GW are left in the dust.

I went to 30k events at the NOVA Open all week last week and there was

1) 2 players with Chaos War Dogs
2) a player with unconverted Triarch Praetorians
3) a player with AoS Nighthaunt with guns and cog-axes glued on
4) a cults/militia army that was just unconverted 40k Chaos Cultists, not even WYSIWYG (owned and run by one of the Event Organizers!)
5) a thunder warriors army

and probably more, just not that I saw.

and nobody among the 100ish players (across multiple events, no single event had 100 players) seemed to bat any eyes at any of it. If they did, they kept it to themselves. It would be strange to me if people weren't bothered by this but were bothered by Mark 7.

 Rihgu wrote:
and nobody among the 100ish players (across multiple events, no single event had 100 players) seemed to bat any eyes at any of it. If they did, they kept it to themselves. It would be strange to me if people weren't bothered by this but were bothered by Mark 7.

Yes, I've been to WH40k tournaments much like this - it wasn't very inspiring. While I am not a huge fan of Mr Outer Circle, here is a recent video he put up of a HH tournament he attended. The quality of the armies (including his) is pretty impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=DpOc0qDqv60

Many of us don't have the time, money or level of commitment to produce these kinds of armies, but it is something to aspire to. Even if most of your army consists of retired WH40k stuff, with some minor converting and a 'period' paint scheme it's still going to look pretty good.

 Rihgu wrote:
I went to 30k events at the NOVA Open all week last week and there was

1) 2 players with Chaos War Dogs
2) a player with unconverted Triarch Praetorians
3) a player with AoS Nighthaunt with guns and cog-axes glued on
4) a cults/militia army that was just unconverted 40k Chaos Cultists, not even WYSIWYG (owned and run by one of the Event Organizers!)
5) a thunder warriors army

and probably more, just not that I saw.

and nobody among the 100ish players (across multiple events, no single event had 100 players) seemed to bat any eyes at any of it. If they did, they kept it to themselves. It would be strange to me if people weren't bothered by this but were bothered by Mark 7.

1) dark mech grants a degree of liberty, but just plopped down out of a box is Bad. Especially since amirigers are awesome conversion Material.
2) that is a Hard pass honestly.
3) nighthaunt are awesome to build dark mech scyllax out of, however require bits and pieces to do so. As you describe them that sounds as if someone wanted securators (?) For which baseline magi are far better suited to convert them and did so in a clearly lazy way.
4) should not be accepted and shows a clear lack of care and questionable standards of nova. Also not wysiwyg is just a hard pass. Even more troubling though, the fact militia which would Make for easy adaptability of all human kits into, got fielded in that Way is just sad.
5) as in full converted?!? Not gonna lie that is awesome but not fitting at the same time.

4) definitely sounds like a tryhard trying to chase a 30k meta

 lord_blackfang wrote:
4) definitely sounds like a tryhard trying to chase a 30k meta

See, we know that's not true because militia aren't meta

A fair argument, but, without any additional info, I will still assume that the person with a bare bones proxy of a fringe army list is motivated by something in their rules, not their looks.

What is wrong with the Chaos Militia army, other than the "not WYSIWYG" part? Chaos Cult uprisings were a common thing during the Heresy, and the 40K Cultists are the perfect models for their basic infantry, so... what is the problem?

What's wrong with the War Dogs if they're WYSIWYG, for that matter?

 Lord Damocles wrote:
What's wrong with the War Dogs if they're WYSIWYG, for that matter?

Some people seem to think that the Chaos aesthetic didn't develop until after the Heresy, despite many, many sources indicating otherwise.

3) nighthaunt are awesome to build dark mech scyllax out of, however require bits and pieces to do so. As you describe them that sounds as if someone wanted securators (?) For which baseline magi are far better suited to convert them and did so in a clearly lazy way.

Pretty sure the guy was running them as Myrmidons

A fair argument, but, without any additional info, I will still assume that the person with a bare bones proxy of a fringe army list is motivated by something in their rules, not their looks.

Take what you will of this, but his primary army was Imperial Fists. He "just dabbled" in militias.

 Rihgu wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
What's wrong with the War Dogs if they're WYSIWYG, for that matter?

Some people seem to think that the Chaos aesthetic didn't develop until after the Heresy, despite many, many sources indicating otherwise.

That severly depends on the time of the HH source in question.

Siege, yeah defininatly you start seeing chaos stars and some trim.

Before that? nope. not really. With the obvious exception being the Word bearers and ironically emperors children which are already on the way and have units that mark that halfway point like kakophoni.

Dark mech is up in the air though however intermixing both the chaos wardogs wit normal amirigers is a lot more accurate overall.

3) nighthaunt are awesome to build dark mech scyllax out of, however require bits and pieces to do so. As you describe them that sounds as if someone wanted securators (?) For which baseline magi are far better suited to convert them and did so in a clearly lazy way.

Pretty sure the guy was running them as Myrmidons

Myrmidon secutators the elite variant. Myrmidon destroyers are the HS variant. Since both are myrmidons i just use the thing afterwards.


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 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
4) definitely sounds like a tryhard trying to chase a 30k meta

See, we know that's not true because militia aren't meta

You clearly haven't run into vanquisher militia, granted they play into the terminator and dreadnought meta because terminators and dreadnoughts don't find vanquishers particulary nice and neither do custodes but thankfully vanquisher militia are more of a team game issue.