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Deathwatch got hit hard. Our strats only hit "bolt Weapons" (of which isn't clear as the PDF and the app have different lists of what these are) which makes sense logically but really hurts the army, vets went up 10ppts, the proteus kill team is 180 for 5 vets and 360 for a 10 man proteus team, which they aren't worth in any world. The primaris kill teams went down but not enough to make them worth taking (as their issues are structural) besides Indomitor, because it's guns either do or don't benefit from the DW strats still depending on the version of the list you use. Throw in we have a single strat that benefits from the Captain's ability and we're pretty much screwed hard now. Looks like we'll be joining the rest of marines in using Gladius.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

And on another note... idk how Sisters players feel but I still wouldn't be happy. Points changes don't change the fact that they still can't kill tanks. And hey Daedalus is back, tell us how they are actually just being played wrong again!

That's basically the jist of it.

Multimeltas need to be more effective or they're just going to struggle and becoming a cheap horde army that still can't kill tanks wouldn't fix it.

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
Deathwatch got hit hard. Our strats only hit "bolt Weapons" (of which isn't clear as the PDF and the app have different lists of what these are) which makes sense logically but really hurts the army, vets went up 10ppts, the proteus kill team is 180 for 5 vets and 360 for a 10 man proteus team, which they aren't worth in any world. The primaris kill teams went down but not enough to make them worth taking (as their issues are structural) besides Indomitor, because it's guns either do or don't benefit from the DW strats still depending on the version of the list you use. Throw in we have a single strat that benefits from the Captain's ability and we're pretty much screwed hard now. Looks like we'll be joining the rest of marines in using Gladius.

The quadruple tap seems a little egregious. I don't think the changes are unmanageable, but they absolutely did their best to beat the DW out entirely.

That said, Thief, Teleportarum, and Tome are all still powerful reasons to take Black Spear.

Dudeface wrote:

Voss wrote:
Votann change is, honestly, really dumb. (Now you start the game with +1 to hit and damage rolls against _4_ units)

Its compensating way too hard for the mediocre base BS.

They needed a change, obviously, but this a weirdly hamfisted way to not admit that they overcompensated hard and overdid the baseline nerfs.

When their codex rolls around, they're simply going to rework the army. Other detachment rules simply aren't going to match having that many judgement tokens in play, and its not functional to have this 'bad stats' workaround.

So would you rather increase stats and pay more points or pay fewer points and have "bad" stats? They won't magically increase the to-hit for an entire army and not put the cost up and leave an easy reach hit buff in play. Also why is 50% with selective access to +1 to hit "bad"?

Because of the way math works. Particularly the game math, and the hard inability to stack modifiers. If you're giving a faction functionality through modifiers, they're basically immune to further buffs. If you're making them this widespread on turn 1 (and the ability to spread more tokens through enhancements and enemy attacks), you're simply creating an artificial baseline. You might as well start over and make that the default statline (or rather, go back to the default statline they had a year or so ago).

Their detachment ability is 'mathematically suck less' which functionally ruins the design space for other detachments.

 Prometheum5 wrote:
JFC the Tyrannofex change breaks the 1000pt list I rushed to complete and bought foam for and have yet to play a game with.

This makes me a bit sad to read. Just such a downer for a start to a army.

Voss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Voss wrote:
Votann change is, honestly, really dumb. (Now you start the game with +1 to hit and damage rolls against _4_ units)

Its compensating way too hard for the mediocre base BS.

They needed a change, obviously, but this a weirdly hamfisted way to not admit that they overcompensated hard and overdid the baseline nerfs.

When their codex rolls around, they're simply going to rework the army. Other detachment rules simply aren't going to match having that many judgement tokens in play, and its not functional to have this 'bad stats' workaround.

So would you rather increase stats and pay more points or pay fewer points and have "bad" stats? They won't magically increase the to-hit for an entire army and not put the cost up and leave an easy reach hit buff in play. Also why is 50% with selective access to +1 to hit "bad"?

Because of the way math works. Particularly the game math, and the hard inability to stack modifiers. If you're giving a faction functionality through modifiers, they're basically immune to further buffs. If you're making them this widespread on turn 1 (and the ability to spread more tokens through enhancements and enemy attacks), you're simply creating an artificial baseline. You might as well start over and make that the default statline (or rather, go back to the default statline they had a year or so ago).

Their detachment ability is 'mathematically suck less' which functionally ruins the design space for other detachments.

Fair response ty

Apple fox wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:
JFC the Tyrannofex change breaks the 1000pt list I rushed to complete and bought foam for and have yet to play a game with.

This makes me a bit sad to read. Just such a downer for a start to a army.

Reminds me of the time near the end of 7th when I finally got my big Lion's Blade Strike Force all assembled and ready to play for a tournament, and then thanks to my job not letting me have the time off (I work retail and it was the day of high school graduations) I didn't even get to play it. And then 8th dropped and most of what I had gathered was now useless. A lot of players have similar sad stories I'm sure.

But seriously pour one out for the Tyrannofex. Whoever made this dataslate needs to show us on the doll where they got touched by one. I myself picked one up for my budding Tyranid army as a source of anti-tank, and now it's been relegated to shelf duty and will probably be among the last of my bugs to get paint. And meanwhile the Haruspex, which is a worse looking model in every way, is still somehow only 125 points and absolutely kicks ass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I actually wonder if Exaction Squads will get a points bump to make them less of an obvious choice over some factions' cheapest objective holders.

CALLED IT!

 The Phazer wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

And on another note... idk how Sisters players feel but I still wouldn't be happy. Points changes don't change the fact that they still can't kill tanks. And hey Daedalus is back, tell us how they are actually just being played wrong again!

That's basically the jist of it.

Multimeltas need to be more effective or they're just going to struggle and becoming a cheap horde army that still can't kill tanks wouldn't fix it.

There's...some play in a couple of different skew lists now.

5+ immolators, 2 Exorcists, Paragons+Morvenn, Castigator, 3 Units of Rets. You have enough melta shots to kill things by sheer weight of dice (and -4AP, which is still really nice) and enough incidental anti-infantry to sweep anything short of an endless horde list.

How well you can play the objective game...we don't really talk about that.

The other one is an anti-infantry skew where you're basically hoping to run into endless horde lists for 5 rounds, while beating TAC and Vehicle skew lists by playing the mission way better than your opponent.

Neither is exactly great and I'd be very surprised if we aren't still bottom 3 winrate, but at least we get more stuff now?

Apple fox wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:
JFC the Tyrannofex change breaks the 1000pt list I rushed to complete and bought foam for and have yet to play a game with.

This makes me a bit sad to read. Just such a downer for a start to a army.

I'm in the same boat with Knights. I have three Questoris, Lancer, Castigator, Dominus and six Armigers all in sub-assembles with a wrecked Chaos War Dog and Ravager for a display board. I have been rushing to build and paint since 10th hit and haven't had a single game... but have had so many nerfs come down I am not going to shelve the army.

This edition's balance issues are just ridiculous.

I'm annoyed at the points/balance changes but I think I might actually be more annoyed about the implications of Core Rules changes this early. My Leviathan rulebook and the mini Core Rules book I just received in the mail are now both incorrect.

It's the 2nd time LOV got points reduction right? It's almost like you need to continuously buy more and more each update just to keep it up.

I also don't see these little guys has hordes type army at all, if thats the way its going.

Either way peeps may as well just wait for the DEX and new models...I think we are just back again on a never ending loop of bloated rules updates.

Yeah, this edition is pretty piss poor imho. I’m currently playing other systems and have no motivation to paint or army build for any of my armies.

Gw doesn't fix problems. Players complain. Gw fixes problems, players complain.

 NAVARRO wrote:

Either way peeps may as well just wait for the DEX and new models...I think we are just back again on a never ending loop of bloated rules updates.

And who knows how long that will take. The LoV Codex is conspicuously absent from the announced list so far.

 NAVARRO wrote:
It's the 2nd time LOV got points reduction right? It's almost like you need to continuously buy more and more each update just to keep it up.

I also don't see these little guys has hordes type army at all, if thats the way its going.

Either way peeps may as well just wait for the DEX and new models...I think we are just back again on a never ending loop of bloated rules updates.

What did you want them to do in this circumstance? Please don't fall back on "get it perfect first time", what could they have done to rectify the problem they're seeing?

Dudeface wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
It's the 2nd time LOV got points reduction right? It's almost like you need to continuously buy more and more each update just to keep it up.

I also don't see these little guys has hordes type army at all, if thats the way its going.

Either way peeps may as well just wait for the DEX and new models...I think we are just back again on a never ending loop of bloated rules updates.

What did you want them to do in this circumstance? Please don't fall back on "get it perfect first time", what could they have done to rectify the problem they're seeing?

Adjust the rules to make Squats less hordey.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
It's the 2nd time LOV got points reduction right? It's almost like you need to continuously buy more and more each update just to keep it up.

I also don't see these little guys has hordes type army at all, if thats the way its going.

Either way peeps may as well just wait for the DEX and new models...I think we are just back again on a never ending loop of bloated rules updates.

What did you want them to do in this circumstance? Please don't fall back on "get it perfect first time", what could they have done to rectify the problem they're seeing?

Adjust the rules to make Squats less hordey.

I suppose the only way they can do that now is to re-write their entire index to some degree though, change every profile and readjust the points, which is likely a larger undertaking than they can manage in this pass. It's a bit of a catch 22. They maybe should and tbh it'd put me off buying any atm.

Alas for the poor Norn Emissary. Lost its 4+ FNP vs Dev Wounds AND went up 5 points and its not even in peoples hands yet. Double nerfed before release.

tneva82 wrote:
Gw doesn't fix problems. Players complain. Gw fixes problems, players complain.

GW creates problems.

GW creates problems, players complain. GW fixes problems, players complain.

GW does nothing, players complain.

tneva82 wrote:
Gw doesn't fix problems. Players complain. Gw fixes problems, players complain.

Because they did neither. When the specific problem here is the Wraithknight needs taking round the shed and having the proverbial bolt put through its head, you do that. Not do wild swings that affect a ton of more units, creating more inadvertent problems and invalidating a rulebook that is barely 2 months old, when everyone knows exactly what unit is actually the target of these changes.

So glad I've not given 10th a look at all. I look forward to OPR actually releasing a competent updated rule set on Saturday with GDF 3rd edition.

I actually think the Devastating Wounds change is a good one, just in general. The Wraithknight was the worst offender, but not the only one.

Outside of some weird point changes and misses I honestly think this was a really good update. I'm actually interested in 40k again. I haven't been interested in singles play this edition to this point and now I am.

 Grimtuff wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Gw doesn't fix problems. Players complain. Gw fixes problems, players complain.

Because they did neither. When the specific problem here is the Wraithknight needs taking round the shed and having the proverbial bolt put through its head, you do that. Not do wild swings that affect a ton of more units, creating more inadvertent problems and invalidating a rulebook that is barely 2 months old, when everyone knows exactly what unit is actually the target of these changes.

So glad I've not given 10th a look at all. I look forward to OPR actually releasing a competent updated rule set on Saturday with GDF 3rd edition.

What inadvertent problems? They changed a rule that caused a lot of problematic interactions, there's been multiple devastating wound interactions in more than 1 army that has been too much, so I don't think altering the rulebook is a travesty exactly.

Dudeface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
It's the 2nd time LOV got points reduction right? It's almost like you need to continuously buy more and more each update just to keep it up.

I also don't see these little guys has hordes type army at all, if thats the way its going.

Either way peeps may as well just wait for the DEX and new models...I think we are just back again on a never ending loop of bloated rules updates.

What did you want them to do in this circumstance? Please don't fall back on "get it perfect first time", what could they have done to rectify the problem they're seeing?

Adjust the rules to make Squats less hordey.

I suppose the only way they can do that now is to re-write their entire index to some degree though, change every profile and readjust the points, which is likely a larger undertaking than they can manage in this pass. It's a bit of a catch 22. They maybe should and tbh it'd put me off buying any atm.

I cant backseat game design or even release schedule management. It's a big machine and cant stop... we know that. But exactly where that leaves LOV?
Its clearly not an ideal situation to have and does leave a bad taste to anyone Starting as an Elite technological advanced race with respect for their lives etc to move towards errrr, disposable bodies, force of numbers race, just because game designers messed up... 3 times.
Solution? Wait for 1.5 years for when 10th is half its full age and Votann new dex comes with more models. Maybe then that will be addressed. From now till then what is the point of building a list that changes every few months?

Well you could always just quit. Better option than just complain and get biood pressure up. For hobby should only do stuff you enjoy. Better for health(

tneva82 wrote:
Well you could always just quit. Better option than just complain and get biood pressure up. For hobby should only do stuff you enjoy. Better for health(

We're about to play a game of Space Weirdos and I'm working on hybridizing that with the campaign systems from Necromunda and Shadow War: Armageddon. I've plenty of better things to do than try to chase the moment in time where my hobby progress lines up with GW's rules tinkering.

What is a horde army within this context?

Because I mean Kyn are still T5 Sv4+ even at their most disposable. They are pretty much as elite as the Sisters of Battle, which is as elite as you can get without being Marines.

They are not a horde army.

The talk of horde Votann is more a question of how can the fix the army beyond making it cheaper. Just making things cheaper doesn't fix the issues but does make the army bigger and bigger. It is no where close to a horde army, but you still need more models to fill a points level than before. However, the players want better models, not cheaper/more models.

LoV is still a slow, short-ranged army almost completely void of synergy and choices thats actually pretty boring to play in 10th

Pts-decreases and 3 additional Ruthless Efficiency-uses* will no doubt make them a "better army" in the sense that their win% will go up, but the core-issue with the army is exactly the same as it was before this update.

(*This one actually annoys me since we saw now with DG that GW can actually write new rules if they want to - but instead of re-writing or giving new rules to the LoV-tokens, they doubled-down on a bad system instead.)

LoV-players generally want their units to be better - not cheaper.