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You complete my post actually, I forgot to mention that will the waagh of proportions to truly work and go on large scale is "rare" (on the galactic scale", it's ability to snowball is without compare and that 1 initial successful waaagh can draw a fair part of the orks... And then that starts being a lot.

One problem with orks in the lore (Ghaz and War of Beast aside) is that they are the "Worf" factor. In TNG, it was no question Lt. Worf the big mean Klingon was a badass, but he seemingly always got thrashed around by baddies (Borg, posessed crew members, aliens, etc) to show how much more stronger they were.
Orks are in the same regards- GW shows they're bigger, stronger than humans- then the Imperium wipes them out. But, there's always more, so it's "Okay". It's wierd, though, that Humans have the numbers game moreso than orks and 'nids. Guard armies have always been horde-swarm, much to player's chagrin at buying pewter minis back in the day.
Somewhat tangent in my mind: But while on Guard and Orks, I just LOVE the Imperial Propaganda and how wrong it is in the Infantryman's uplifting primer. "Oh, Yeah- orks are like 4 feet tall at most, bayonet them in the throat, you'll be fine!"

That's not schoking to me, again orks are blunt and not really optimal in hteir way of running things.

So a unifyied imperial or eldar or whatever force has got some advantages over them before they reach a critical mass when they enable all their potential.

To me, considering the advantages of the orks on the other side, it's really a good thing that makes for a faction both major and not overwhelming in the setting, with both its moments of glories and times of failures. As a character, the orks are as balanced as you can get I think and that feels good.

 TheChrispyOne wrote:

One problem with orks in the lore (Ghaz and War of Beast aside) is that they are the "Worf" factor. In TNG, it was no question Lt. Worf the big mean Klingon was a badass, but he seemingly always got thrashed around by baddies (Borg, posessed crew members, aliens, etc) to show how much more stronger they were.
Orks are in the same regards- GW shows they're bigger, stronger than humans- then the Imperium wipes them out. But, there's always more, so it's "Okay". It's wierd, though, that Humans have the numbers game moreso than orks and 'nids. Guard armies have always been horde-swarm, much to player's chagrin at buying pewter minis back in the day.
Somewhat tangent in my mind: But while on Guard and Orks, I just LOVE the Imperial Propaganda and how wrong it is in the Infantryman's uplifting primer. "Oh, Yeah- orks are like 4 feet tall at most, bayonet them in the throat, you'll be fine!"

The trouble with fighting Orks? If you don’t score a truly decisive win, you’ve just made the problem worse. Because any survivors will end up stronger and more experienced for it, and the fact you just had a big fight could attract new Orks to the area - and by no means does that mean a lesser force. It could be a more power Warboss and his ow grizzled veterans. With no guarantee the current Warboss won’t simply bend the knee as others have before Ghaz.

And a defeat of your own forces leaves the Orks with plenty of bits and gubbins to make even more weapons and vehicles from.

Add in the staggering manpower needed to even think about confronting a Waaagh!, and you begin to see the problem.

Side thought, not entirely worthy of its own thread.

But Painboyz, and their preference for ‘Urty Syringes.

1. It’s a laff. Orks find the infliction of pain amusing.

2. But, Orks get toughened up by injuries, rapidly healing wounds which on most other species would’ve proven fatal.

Could the ‘Urty choice be an unconscious understanding that the more it hurts, the better it will heal - and indeed, the extra pain may trigger the healing process? I mean, having your arm or leg lopped off hurts. But, once it’s stitched, nailed, stapled, all three, back on? The pain is lessened.

So give ‘em a jab with the ‘Urtiest Syringe you can find introduces new pain, kicking off the healing process?

This would also explain the preference for cruder tools. By doing additional damage during the surgery, it’s fresh wounds to awaken their healing factor? And of course they’re more fun to use.

It couldn't tell which way it is, but in 4th ork codex it was stated I believe that pain boyz measured the state of consciousness and resistance of their patients judging by their screams and moanings, helping them know if they'll faint, outright die, or stuff.

Considering how warlike the orks are, it's a logical furtherment to believe they would consider sufferings in surgery a test of force and a chance to get tougher. Not even talking about bioniks.

But I'm not sure making crude tools is done on purpose. Rather, they don't bother going any further because that works more or less and their happy with it, not needing to develop any further than what they instinctively know.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Side thought, not entirely worthy of its own thread.

But Painboyz, and their preference for ‘Urty Syringes.

1. It’s a laff. Orks find the infliction of pain amusing.

2. But, Orks get toughened up by injuries, rapidly healing wounds which on most other species would’ve proven fatal.

Could the ‘Urty choice be an unconscious understanding that the more it hurts, the better it will heal - and indeed, the extra pain may trigger the healing process? I mean, having your arm or leg lopped off hurts. But, once it’s stitched, nailed, stapled, all three, back on? The pain is lessened.

So give ‘em a jab with the ‘Urtiest Syringe you can find introduces new pain, kicking off the healing process?

This would also explain the preference for cruder tools. By doing additional damage during the surgery, it’s fresh wounds to awaken their healing factor? And of course they’re more fun to use.

I think you trying to apply a logic to something that was little more than a silly name for something.

Again, back in the good old days syringe Squigs had a anaesthetic effect. In 2nd where docs tools could be used in combat they were potent because they knocked out the opponent. Nothing in the early descriptions (best descriptions) of painboy had them deliberately inflicting pain for some benefit, they didn’t care much about pain and I’m sure the knocking out of patients was to make them easier to treat with getting a punch and easier to rip off of while they were asleep.

I don’t recall the fluff for the 3rd edition onwards “urty syringe” but nothing trumps 1st edition fluff for me.

Plus after all, orks don't think about what they're doing. They simply do it.

I think the 'Utry syringe harkens back to the old days before anesthetic- y'know, when you see soldiers being held down so the doc can saw their gangrenous limb off.

And gave you something to bite on, apparently recent studied establish that while it's by no mean the most optimal solution,.it actually worked to some extent as the brain would focus on the biting of the wood rather than the pain from the surgery. No, I would not willingly Test it out

You can clearly see the inspiration for "orkish" behavior when the guy tries to catch the boomerang in The Road Warrior and loses several fingers in the process.

And his entire army falls down laughing!

That's orkishness in a nutshell. The painboys aren't doing some weird psycho surgery, they're just hamming that bionic in with a nail because that's what they have. Anyone remember "Phoenix Command"? Modern combat miniatures rules with a roleplaying gloss. Dr. Oscar Schneiderbunk and a series of quotes.

"Hand me the staple gun; this bandage is loose."
"This operation has turned into an autopsy."
Etc.

Same vibe. Orkish medicine is 18th Century battlefield surgery with power tools.

And tougher patients so it works relatively good as long as the dok doesn't get strange idea in the process.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
And tougher patients so it works relatively good as long as the dok doesn't get strange idea in the process.

One could end up with a cybork body, or spanners for hands. It's entirely random, which is orks in a nutshell.

I mean, that's the big takeaway. Anyone who thinks ork logistics are somehow predictable or reliable has missed a lot of the lore. The whole point of orks is that they love goofy, crazy stuff, from oversized guns that are as lethal to the user as the enemy to improbable tech like the shokk attack gun.

Talented ork commanders can exploit this random nuttiness to give opponents fits, but there's always the chance that things go sideways. The one thing orks are not prepared to accept is a by-the-numbers siege campaign. They can't do it. Either they win by sudden assault, some weird strategem/quirk of tech, or the get ground down and go home fighting amongst themselves.

That’s not borne out by the lore.

Orks can and do lay siege to places. They may not be efficient and strategic in terms of salients, entrenching and artillery etc, but they do do it.

For a visual example on a tiny scale? See Mad Max 2. The Great Humongous’ gang behave much like I’d expect Orks to do - especially if the subject of the siege is a significant concentration of enemy troops.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That’s not borne out by the lore.

Orks can and do lay siege to places. They may not be efficient and strategic in terms of salients, entrenching and artillery etc, but they do do it.

For a visual example on a tiny scale? See Mad Max 2. The Great Humongous’ gang behave much like I’d expect Orks to do - especially if the subject of the siege is a significant concentration of enemy troops.

I should clarify that I don't mean the siege of a specific point, I mean prolonged, static combat on a broad scale. This is the Imperium's specialty. The IG is all about the grind. While orks have some patience, it's not limitless. After years of fighting over the same rock, with diminishing loot, it gets boring and the blokes want to move on.

But yes, they will hammer a city for months on end if it looks like the thing will be profitable in the end.

Really, I think that's the way orks look at war - half hobby, half enterprise. They don't launch a Waaagh for abstract reasons, there's always the presumption of material gain. As that possibility diminishes, so does their interest.

Nope. Not at all.

A Waaaagh! is an Orky holy war (please note I’m using lower case there for a reason). And mass migration

Without a Waaagh? Orks will just keep seeking out fights on whatever planet they’re on, or for those aboard ship, come across.

If that means green hot Ork on Ork, non-stop 24/7/375 action? No Ork is really fussed, so long as there’s someone to knack.

Indeed Waaaaaaghs! are the exception. When some Orky instinct compels them to go and gub someone else.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nope. Not at all.

A Waaaagh! is an Orky holy war (please note I’m using lower case there for a reason). And mass migration

Without a Waaagh? Orks will just keep seeking out fights on whatever planet they’re on, or for those aboard ship, come across.

If that means green hot Ork on Ork, non-stop 24/7/375 action? No Ork is really fussed, so long as there’s someone to knack.

Indeed Waaaaaaghs! are the exception. When some Orky instinct compels them to go and gub someone else.

So all Waaaaghs go to the death? Wars of total annihilation? No ork returns home in defeat?

Serious question.

As orks say- they are never defeated.
If they die, they don't know- because they are dead
If they kill the enemy, they look for another.
If they lose- they're "reconsolidating" to come back later for more fights!

But- Waaaghs! are kinda like any society over time. Take the Ancient Romans, for example- before the Caesars, they had patricians. And the current Italian goverment is nothing like it was 20 years ago. same with Waaghs! A leader may die, orks get absorbed into another warband, but as long as they're alive, they keep on fighting. The fact that even in death, they leave spores that will create more orks later proves this.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nope. Not at all.

A Waaaagh! is an Orky holy war (please note I’m using lower case there for a reason). And mass migration

Without a Waaagh? Orks will just keep seeking out fights on whatever planet they’re on, or for those aboard ship, come across.

If that means green hot Ork on Ork, non-stop 24/7/375 action? No Ork is really fussed, so long as there’s someone to knack.

Indeed Waaaaaaghs! are the exception. When some Orky instinct compels them to go and gub someone else.

So all Waaaaghs go to the death? Wars of total annihilation? No ork returns home in defeat?

Serious question.

I think yes, it will take a crushing defeat that scatters them to stop them in their tracks. Anything less will only delay them and victory in one place will push them onwards to the nearest planet. The examples of grukk's Waagh or that of kastorel novem that was only taking its breath before attacking again.

Any Ork in a waaagh will still love the speed, the loot, the slugfest, but it's no longer this that drives them because to them it is really an almost religious phenomenon. The waaagh! Itself is the reason to fight.

However, if the waaagh starts falling apart because they lack loot, are defeated to often, then inner fightings can break out. But even with inner fighting going on, the orky will carry on trying to stomp you because that's what they do. That's what they need to do.

However, not every invasion by a few big tribes nor every Ork empire is a waaagh. Because not all of them have got that religious fervour to it.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nope. Not at all.

A Waaaagh! is an Orky holy war (please note I’m using lower case there for a reason). And mass migration

Without a Waaagh? Orks will just keep seeking out fights on whatever planet they’re on, or for those aboard ship, come across.

If that means green hot Ork on Ork, non-stop 24/7/375 action? No Ork is really fussed, so long as there’s someone to knack.

Indeed Waaaaaaghs! are the exception. When some Orky instinct compels them to go and gub someone else.

So all Waaaaghs go to the death? Wars of total annihilation? No ork returns home in defeat?

Serious question.

Orks don’t seem to have “home” as a conceptual goal. Rather it’s just where they park their butt between fights.

So if a waaaagh takes them to the other side of the galaxy before falling apart, that’s home now.

Waaagh! mechanics aside, the core question of the thread is whether Ork logistics are a strength or a weakness.

I think that Orks by their nature are easier to sustain than most other races, but that the slack they gain from this is used up elsewhere in the supply chain. In the short run, Orks can 'get by,' but that leads to a complacency and can result in a backlash later on.

And the fluff bears this out. The various references to Orks using slave labor to run captured factories but working them to death is a built-in limiter. It's like conquering a territory, setting fire to the crops in the fields, slaughtering the peasants, and then wondering why your army is so hungry all of a sudden.

This is why Orks are primarily a localized phenomenon, a threat only as an accumulation of disparate Waaaghs, raiders and warbands, but without a central intelligence or unity of effort.

Orky logistics are instinctual.

Could they be improved with proper organisations and planning? Well….yes. But doesn’t that hold true for any logistical effort?

But their society still manages. It produces specialists with savant knowledge to a certain order. And even the non-savant members know to drag anything wrecked back to the savants.

And at all points? It remains incredibly adaptable.

In fact, the only aspect of supply/demand I feel the entire Orkoid genus might suck at, is mining raw materials.

Orks don’t have the patience or interest. Even if you try to tell them they’re fighting the Mountain/Ground/Whatevs. And Grots just seem too weedy to be efficient at it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Orky logistics are instinctual.

Could they be improved with proper organisations and planning? Well….yes. But doesn’t that hold true for any logistical effort?

But their society still manages. It produces specialists with savant knowledge to a certain order. And even the non-savant members know to drag anything wrecked back to the savants.

And at all points? It remains incredibly adaptable.

In fact, the only aspect of supply/demand I feel the entire Orkoid genus might suck at, is mining raw materials.

Orks don’t have the patience or interest. Even if you try to tell them they’re fighting the Mountain/Ground/Whatevs. And Grots just seem too weedy to be efficient at it.

That’s what slaves are for!

Big Mek D slapped his head in dismay as the Weird Boy recounted to him the various humie voices that were buzzing around in his head.

"So you mean if I splain it more den da voices go away?"

The weird boy nodded. "I fink so boss."

Big Mek D sighed. "Well since every time I smack an kick you, green shat come out and zap my armor, guess I'll try it your way."

He clears his throat.

"So da Tribe dat lives ere is called Da Wheel and Track. Its called dat cuz some Big Mek Git long time back made a bunch of vroom vroom trains. But uver meks keep makin da regular ol vroom vroom buggies an since we all like goin fast, dats what it's called. Sure we got plenty of Nobs but da big boss always iz a Big Mek. Cuz who else gonna make da good stuff eh?"

"In any case, ders no WAAAGH ere. Just Da Tribe, an Da Free Booterz flying around in da sky. Yah see some of da Boyz around ere join up with them Free Booterz and go on raids an stuff. Don't need a WAAAGH ta raid and loot after all. WAAAGH jus somethin we all hope happens. But who knows if Gork and Mork ever going to give us one?"