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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 10:14:02
Subject: So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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Unit1126PLL wrote:Lol, freaking playing by the rules is a "self-imposed limitation" if you stretch far enough. You could be riding a bike or eating food...
Where do the rules state you must play in tournament style games? Where do the rules state a TO can't allow legends in a tournament (they explain they're not considered legal for tournaments admittedly, but that doesn't stop the TO overruling it)? Where do the rules state you can't use "counts as" for discontinued minis?
Those are self imposed limitations to one degree or another.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 11:22:07
Subject: Re:So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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H.B.M.C. wrote: alextroy wrote:GW routinely sells overpriced alternative models for models that are part of kits. They often think that people will want cool models just because they are cool. Do any of these ring a bell?
None of those four minis have anything to do with what Breton is talking about.
Dudeface wrote:The champion was never a general release model in the first place...
Right up until the moment when he suddenly was, and anyone could buy him.
With a datasheet in the index. They had a number of these little bait and switches. The Index implied a roster of units for the edition. Then the Codex chopped off a bunch of units that originally looked interesting/good enough I'm sure a number of people ordered with that in mind, and then they were chopped off at the knees. Automatically Appended Next Post: Dudeface wrote:
Not exactly, just exasperation that well never see fun one off limited ed minis that push the envelope because of threads like this basically.
It's not entirely unfounded but it is a subjective thing.
Its also not the point of the complaint.
Put out good rules for a model in the index.
Make those models available to order - either regularly or special (Sniper Scouts or the Primaris Champion etc for example)
Hack all those models and plans out the window with the codex drop.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/04 11:26:15
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 11:49:27
Subject: So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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Do not buy minis expressly for their very temporary good rules, that goes without saying.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 13:46:13
Subject: So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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Dudeface wrote:Do not buy minis expressly for their very temporary good rules, that goes without saying.
Don't squat things right after making them the new hotness. Goes without saying. My problem isn't that the rules changed, or that they were removed. My problem is it happened right after the Index release. Especially so when the Made To Order box arrives on the same day the Codex that squatted them goes on pre-order.
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My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 13:57:06
Subject: So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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Breton wrote:Dudeface wrote:Do not buy minis expressly for their very temporary good rules, that goes without saying.
Don't squat things right after making them the new hotness. Goes without saying. My problem isn't that the rules changed, or that they were removed. My problem is it happened right after the Index release. Especially so when the Made To Order box arrives on the same day the Codex that squatted them goes on pre-order.
Again, be annoyed they squatted something, saying it's bad because you bought stuff due to having good rules, which change every 3 months or less, devalues your argument.
The MTO window was well before the codex release date, it was before the edition release date. The date the box turns up for you is anecdotal. I won't devalue your annoyance at losing special characters or rules, but it's nothing to do with the MTO delivery date.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 14:33:10
Subject: So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Dudeface wrote: Insectum7 wrote:Restrictions are not merely "self imposed". For those of us who are used to playing 'tournament-adjacent' the no-Legends-supported can be very much not by our choice.
Then don't play them in tournaments, that's a self imposed limitation. Or get TO authorisation for proxies if needed and that doesn't offend your sensibilities too much.
I'm sorry, what?What's the 'self imposed' aspect of tournament play here?
Prior to 10th and for probably 30+ years, I could freely bring a Land Speeder to a tournament with zero hassle. But now I have to counts-as or get special permissions, and that's 'self imposed'?
Riiiiiiiiight. . .
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 14:38:07
Subject: So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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Insectum7 wrote:Dudeface wrote: Insectum7 wrote:Restrictions are not merely "self imposed". For those of us who are used to playing 'tournament-adjacent' the no-Legends-supported can be very much not by our choice.
Then don't play them in tournaments, that's a self imposed limitation. Or get TO authorisation for proxies if needed and that doesn't offend your sensibilities too much.
I'm sorry, what?What's the 'self imposed' aspect of tournament play here?
Prior to 10th and for probably 30+ years, I could freely bring a Land Speeder to a tournament with zero hassle. But now I have to counts-as or get special permissions, and that's 'self imposed'?
Riiiiiiiiight. . .
Playing in tournaments is technically "self-imposed".
With GW's decisions, "count as"/Legends is pretty much your only choice really, or play an older edition/grimdark future. But then you're not playing in tournaments either.
I can empathize with SM players losing their units, but at the same time, i think it was about time that it happened considering how other factions have been losing stuff constantly and how large the SM range was (and still is)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/04 14:38:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 14:52:32
Subject: So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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VladimirHerzog wrote: Insectum7 wrote:Dudeface wrote: Insectum7 wrote:Restrictions are not merely "self imposed". For those of us who are used to playing 'tournament-adjacent' the no-Legends-supported can be very much not by our choice.
Then don't play them in tournaments, that's a self imposed limitation. Or get TO authorisation for proxies if needed and that doesn't offend your sensibilities too much.
I'm sorry, what?What's the 'self imposed' aspect of tournament play here?
Prior to 10th and for probably 30+ years, I could freely bring a Land Speeder to a tournament with zero hassle. But now I have to counts-as or get special permissions, and that's 'self imposed'?
Riiiiiiiiight. . .
Playing in tournaments is technically "self-imposed".
While I can understand the reasoning behind this statement, the framing of it is still stupid. I took no action to send these units to Legends and have the not-in-tournaments limitation placed upon them.
With GW's decisions, "count as"/Legends is pretty much your only choice really, or play an older edition/grimdark future. But then you're not playing in tournaments either.
So . . . Again neither my actions or choices made said units unallowed for tournament play.
I can empathize with SM players losing their units, but at the same time, i think it was about time that it happened considering how other factions have been losing stuff constantly and how large the SM range was (and still is)
Oh of course I have no sympathy for other faction options being lost . . . The removal of those options for other factions was 'self imposed'! No Jump Pack CSM Lords? Entirely self imposed! /s
Y'all are goofy in the head.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 14:53:50
Subject: Re:So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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i was agreeing with you....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 15:16:21
Subject: Re:So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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It's an emotive topic and some people will handle a loss in different ways. It sounds dramatic to word it that way but it's something they've cared about and have emotionally invested in to.
The only difference is whether you sit in a pool of anger and stew or try to move on and make the most of it.
Yes, if you want to attend tournaments, not have legends, not use proxies, not use the wrong armour mk based on the keywords, not use 10 man units or whatever it is that dings your dong and will not adapt or compromise, then it's tough luck and that sucks.
For everyone else, might be worth assembling a list of common/acknowledged proxies and the like.
Regards the MTO thing specifically, as above, sad that it happened but the timing isn't as suspect as laid out in the OP.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 17:02:48
Subject: Re:So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Dudeface wrote:
It's an emotive topic and some people will handle a loss in different ways. It sounds dramatic to word it that way but it's something they've cared about and have emotionally invested in to.
The only difference is whether you sit in a pool of anger and stew or try to move on and make the most of it.
Yes, if you want to attend tournaments, not have legends, not use proxies, not use the wrong armour mk based on the keywords, not use 10 man units or whatever it is that dings your dong and will not adapt or compromise, then it's tough luck and that sucks.
For everyone else, might be worth assembling a list of common/acknowledged proxies and the like.
Regards the MTO thing specifically, as above, sad that it happened but the timing isn't as suspect as laid out in the OP.
Losing units or options to Legends (or just completely gone) is one thing. I've got the luxury of being able to define my own meta and play different rule sets. But being told that it's somehow my 'self limiting' fault for not being able to play my models ("tournament adjacent") the way I've been playing them for decades is quite another.
It's already been noted numerous times that the use of Legends varies from meta to meta, and some players have less control over that than others. And even if I wanted to run models like Land Speeders as Primaris-Skimmer-Thing, there's a good chance it frowned upon for being a wildly different size.
But no, i'm just being emotional. Whatever dude.
Didn't look like it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 17:07:48
Subject: Re:So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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My post was split in 3 parts
1: explaining a possible reason why the other poster said it was self-inflicted
2: listing the options to keep playing these units, with the caveat that you wouldnt be playing in a "tournament setting"
3: saying i know how it feels to lose options and units and using my pattern recognition to see that SM wouldnt always keep their unending roster of units
now if from these 3 statements, you thought that somehow i was saying losing units was a good thing and that you were somehow to blame for them not being legal then that wasnt my goal
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/04 17:08:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 17:27:06
Subject: Re:So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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VladimirHerzog wrote:My post was split in 3 parts
1: explaining a possible reason why the other poster said it was self-inflicted
2: listing the options to keep playing these units, with the caveat that you wouldnt be playing in a "tournament setting"
3: saying i know how it feels to lose options and units and using my pattern recognition to see that SM wouldnt always keep their unending roster of units
now if from these 3 statements, you thought that somehow i was saying losing units was a good thing and that you were somehow to blame for them not being legal then that wasnt my goal
My original drive into the debate is over the 'self imposed' label, which it appears that you agree with.
In summary, losing the use of models/options is painful for any faction.
Calling it 'self-imposed' is incredibly disingenuous. Yes, technically I can still use those models if I extract myself from what is often the mainstream meta, or play counts-as when possible. But it's A: Not always possible, and B: a f***ing pedantic point.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 17:31:42
Subject: Re:So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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Insectum7 wrote:Dudeface wrote:
It's an emotive topic and some people will handle a loss in different ways. It sounds dramatic to word it that way but it's something they've cared about and have emotionally invested in to.
The only difference is whether you sit in a pool of anger and stew or try to move on and make the most of it.
Yes, if you want to attend tournaments, not have legends, not use proxies, not use the wrong armour mk based on the keywords, not use 10 man units or whatever it is that dings your dong and will not adapt or compromise, then it's tough luck and that sucks.
For everyone else, might be worth assembling a list of common/acknowledged proxies and the like.
Regards the MTO thing specifically, as above, sad that it happened but the timing isn't as suspect as laid out in the OP.
Losing units or options to Legends (or just completely gone) is one thing. I've got the luxury of being able to define my own meta and play different rule sets. But being told that it's somehow my 'self limiting' fault for not being able to play my models ("tournament adjacent") the way I've been playing them for decades is quite another.
It's already been noted numerous times that the use of Legends varies from meta to meta, and some players have less control over that than others. And even if I wanted to run models like Land Speeders as Primaris-Skimmer-Thing, there's a good chance it frowned upon for being a wildly different size.
But no, i'm just being emotional. Whatever dude.
Didn't look like it.
Go and reread what I wrote. You are being emotional and lashing out.
But yes, you could try to reach out to other player groups, you could try playing older editions, you could try using the minis as proxies and coming to an agreement of some kind (pad out the silhouette of the land speeder using trees or whatever on the relevant base).
You are, in part, choosing to not do these things, what would allow you to play your models how you want.
So yes, you are angry and yes it's understandable, but what will you do next?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 17:37:33
Subject: So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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^Swing and a miss, my man. You can already read in my prior posts what my plans are.
But the inability of being able to bring a Land Speeder to a tournament is not me 'self limiting'.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 17:47:15
Subject: So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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Insectum7 wrote:^Swing and a miss, my man. You can already read in my prior posts what my plans are.
But the inability of being able to bring a Land Speeder to a tournament is not me 'self limiting'.
Again, pad out the silhouette, get TO permission to run it as a primaris speeder.
It's not self limiting in the literal sense, refusing to attempt to resolve it is. Choosing to attend an event is a choice also.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 18:04:47
Subject: So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Dudeface wrote: Insectum7 wrote:^Swing and a miss, my man. You can already read in my prior posts what my plans are.
But the inability of being able to bring a Land Speeder to a tournament is not me 'self limiting'.
Again, pad out the silhouette, get TO permission to run it as a primaris speeder.
It's not self limiting in the literal sense, refusing to attempt to resolve it is. Choosing to attend an event is a choice also.
Congratulations, here's your point for pedantry.
Can I use my Land Speeder in a tournament as is, even though I magnetized all the options for maximum compatibility, like I always have? No? Great, thanks.
*shoots console*
Useless conversation anyways.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/04 18:07:46
Subject: Re:So my Made To Order models showed up the same day the Codex that dropped them went on Pre-order
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[MOD]
Villanous Scum
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Think we are done here. This conversation can take place in the SM codex thread. Be polite though or be removed.
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On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. |
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