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The pause for WHFB shouldn't even be there, TOW is a different game. Theres as much argument that WHFB continued into AoS as there is for TOW being the same game - on launch all your WHFB armies and the majority of your minis (characters included) were available for play in AoS.

That's just corporate semantics tho. Functionally it's a new edition of WHFB. We've had two 40k rewrites with far, far more drastic changes than between 8th and ToW in the same timeframe.

Case in point, Age of Sigmar is the 9th, 10th, and 11th editions of WHFB. Same minis, same characters, the lore is a continuation of the story, rules changes are no more dramatic than some of the mechanical changes featured in 40k over the years.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Case in point, Age of Sigmar is the 9th, 10th, and 11th editions of WHFB. Same minis, same characters, the lore is a continuation of the story, rules changes are no more dramatic than some of the mechanical changes featured in 40k over the years.

I was unaware that 40K, at any point in time, used square bases for ranks-n-flanks gameplay.

As a matter of fact if you go back far enough at least some 40k minis were on square bases.

3rd Edition 40k still had some models square bases (Ogryns for Guard), so not that far back

And the 'ranks 'n' flanks' tactics instead of skirmishing?

I buy and sell a lot of minis, and all GW models hold value even after the game stops being supported. Maybe immediately afterwards they're discounted heavily, but if you had a WFB army, it wasn't worse much less after the End times than before. And if it was TK or Brets, it was worth more!

I know that's not a strict correlation, since plenty of people collect but dont' play, but I think it minimizes the idea that GW players are left holding the bag completely when GW stops support.

 Vulcan wrote:
And the 'ranks 'n' flanks' tactics instead of skirmishing?

3rd Edition IG Close Order Drill for your ranks

Armor Facing for your flanks.

But you know, thats a completely arbitrary metric to go by. Theres a long list of mechanics and rule concepts that 40k has abandoned over its 9 life-cycle updates. Gamemasters, using d4/8/10/12/20 for resolution, intelligence stats dictating ability to use certain weapons, 90 degree line of sight/fire arcs for every individual model (kinda rank and flank-y), following fire/sustained fire rules in place of just having more attacks on a weapon with multiple shots, vehicle targeting grids, pivot-turns for vehicles based on their forward speed (again, not unlike rank and flank), etc.

Okay, I concede the point.

 kodos wrote:

Bago wrote:


play GW games because there you know that outside of Blood Bowl, the game is dropped by the community the moment GW stops supporting it

I've been a part of 3-4 different groups playing Warhammer Fantasy after the end times and before TOW either playing WAP, 6th or 8th. Mordheim has also done very well since GW dropped support. A lot in that community are worried that GW will start supporting it again and invalidate all great community warbands.

The populations get smaller, but they stay alive.

which is the same with any other game as well a smaller population but they are alive

Back on topic.

I am surprised I am the first to say that I am going Dark Elf. I used to have a ~2k force that I got rid of years ago.

It has been an absolute bear finding models tho. All the CoS dark elf kits are out of stock and online only. Ordered a bunch of 3d printed stuff for now. I was hoping to find a box or two of the drakespawn/cold one cav for $35 a box. I am afraid they are gonna rebox them(if they don't just squat them) and up the price of the unit to $60.

I bought a Lokhir Fellheart mini a while back, kinda makes me wanna build a DE army lol

He is a great model. I have always been more drawn to the city guard aesthetic of them. Light on the corsairs and witch elves. I love the spears/xbows/black guard/cold ones/etc.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Tbh, I think ‘1999+1pts’ is going to be a common thing ti prevent exactly this sort of silliness.

1999+1 is dumb, it punishes everyone, not just the behemoth-spammers. Just have a rule like "max one ridden and one unridden behemoth" or something like that.

lord_blackfang wrote:Good news, GW itself already putting in additional comp for Warhammer World events

(rule of three on everything, including core)

That's a decent bit of comp, but not enough. Still allows two ridden star dragons, etc.

chaos0xomega wrote:The pause for WHFB shouldn't even be there, TOW is a different game. Theres as much argument that WHFB continued into AoS as there is for TOW being the same game - on launch all your WHFB armies and the majority of your minis (characters included) were available for play in AoS.

While I agree that TOW isn't WHFB, AOS DEFINITELY isn't WHFB. WHFB is napoleonics. AOS is 40k in a bizarro acid trip fantasy setting.

chaos0xomega wrote:Case in point, Age of Sigmar is the 9th, 10th, and 11th editions of WHFB. Same minis, same characters, the lore is a continuation of the story, rules changes are no more dramatic than some of the mechanical changes featured in 40k over the years.

Same minis? Are you kidding? I took a gander at the Cities of Sigmar range to see what might be useable in an empire army. Here's the complete list: General on griffin, mages, Stank, Flaggies. That's it. The rest is not only different/new models, but stylistically just WRONG for WHFB (and obviously also TOW). Yes, it's a continuation of the same story, in the sense of the sequel that should never have been made, but in that sense, TOW would be editions of WHFB with negative numbers?

 march10k wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Tbh, I think ‘1999+1pts’ is going to be a common thing ti prevent exactly this sort of silliness.

1999+1 is dumb, it punishes everyone, not just the behemoth-spammers. Just have a rule like "max one ridden and one unridden behemoth" or something like that.

1999+1 gives a similar distribution of most things to 2k in 6-8th. It worked fine then.

 march10k wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Tbh, I think ‘1999+1pts’ is going to be a common thing ti prevent exactly this sort of silliness.

1999+1 is dumb, it punishes everyone, not just the behemoth-spammers. Just have a rule like "max one ridden and one unridden behemoth" or something like that.

lord_blackfang wrote:Good news, GW itself already putting in additional comp for Warhammer World events

(rule of three on everything, including core)

That's a decent bit of comp, but not enough. Still allows two ridden star dragons, etc.

chaos0xomega wrote:The pause for WHFB shouldn't even be there, TOW is a different game. Theres as much argument that WHFB continued into AoS as there is for TOW being the same game - on launch all your WHFB armies and the majority of your minis (characters included) were available for play in AoS.

While I agree that TOW isn't WHFB, AOS DEFINITELY isn't WHFB. WHFB is napoleonics. AOS is 40k in a bizarro acid trip fantasy setting.

chaos0xomega wrote:Case in point, Age of Sigmar is the 9th, 10th, and 11th editions of WHFB. Same minis, same characters, the lore is a continuation of the story, rules changes are no more dramatic than some of the mechanical changes featured in 40k over the years.

Same minis? Are you kidding? I took a gander at the Cities of Sigmar range to see what might be useable in an empire army. Here's the complete list: General on griffin, mages, Stank, Flaggies. That's it. The rest is not only different/new models, but stylistically just WRONG for WHFB (and obviously also TOW). Yes, it's a continuation of the same story, in the sense of the sequel that should never have been made, but in that sense, TOW would be editions of WHFB with negative numbers?

Are you kidding?

Until 6 months ago, Cities of sigmar was almost the entire Empire army range with most of the wood elves, dark elves, high elves, and dwarves ranges thrown in. Even then, those new kits - plenty of people have been buying them to convert into Empire or bretonnian units for TOW.

While we're at it:

-Skaven - almost entirely whfb era minis
-Beasts of chaos - almost entirely whfb era minis
-Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh - collectively half of the minis in these factions are whfb era
-Slaves to Darkness - 80% of the faction is either whfb minis or relatively recently resculpted kits that are basically 1:1 with the whfb kits they replaced
-Flesh-eater Courts - until literally today the faction was basically 100% whfb minis
-Nighthaunt - based around a core handful of whfb kits abd expanded from there
-Soulblight - ~80% of the range are whfb kits or resculpts thereof
-Gloomspite - ~80% of the range are whfb kits or resculpts thereof
-Ogors - pretty much the entire range are whfb kits or resculpts thereof
-Orruks - a third of the range are whfb kits or resculpts thereof
-Daughters of Khaine - half the range are whfb kits
-Seraphon - 80% of the range are whfb kits or resculpts thereof
-Sylvaneth - half the range are whfb kits

I'm torn between starting Bretonnia or Empire, I like both a lot, at least as far aesthetics go. I really wish I knew what new sculpts Empire was getting with their release...if any. I never really played WHF much back when it was still supported, so i'm pretty much going in blind and starting from scratch. Probably building to 1000 points to start and playing at that level for a while before moving to 1250-1500.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 march10k wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Tbh, I think ‘1999+1pts’ is going to be a common thing ti prevent exactly this sort of silliness.

1999+1 is dumb, it punishes everyone, not just the behemoth-spammers. Just have a rule like "max one ridden and one unridden behemoth" or something like that.

1999+1 gives a similar distribution of most things to 2k in 6-8th. It worked fine then.

Looks at how much stuff has a 0-X limit per 1000 pts
It's quite a bit different now, actually

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 march10k wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Tbh, I think ‘1999+1pts’ is going to be a common thing ti prevent exactly this sort of silliness.

1999+1 is dumb, it punishes everyone, not just the behemoth-spammers. Just have a rule like "max one ridden and one unridden behemoth" or something like that.

1999+1 gives a similar distribution of most things to 2k in 6-8th. It worked fine then.

Looks at how much stuff has a 0-X limit per 1000 pts
It's quite a bit different now, actually

0-X but the X is frequently larger than 1.

Things that were Lords in earlier editions are usually 0-1/1k, but in 6th-7th you could only have 1 Lord. So similar.

A lot of the rare units are 0-2/1k - 6th-7th had max 2 rare at 2k and 8th had max 2 of each rare at 2. So similar.

And the Special units with limitations are even larger, e.g. Empire war machines are 0-3/1k vs 8th Ed which was max 3 of each special or 6-7th Ed which was max 4 Special total. So again similar.

Obviously not exactly the same (it’s a different philosophy), but yes the limitations on nastier things is fairly similar for 1,999. +1 vs 2k in earlier editions. It’s certainly no more restricted given it’s only certain units with limitations.

0-x on 1000 pts is rarely larger than 1. the only thing i know of is goblin bolt throwers,

Then there's also the fact that theres a 0-1 period limit on some units.

Not Online!!! wrote:
0-x on 1000 pts is rarely larger than 1. the only thing i know of is goblin bolt throwers,

Then there's also the fact that theres a 0-1 period limit on some units.

There’s lots that’s more than 0-1.

In RH you’ve got the goblin bolt throwers, plus quite a few for TK:
Tomb Scorpions 0-3/1k
War Sphinxes 0-2/1k
Screaming Skull Catapults 0-2/1k

FoF is absolutely full of them, at least one for every army.
For Dwarfs 0-3/1k Special war machines and 0-2/1k for the rare ones
Empire has the same 0-3/1k for Special war machines
Bretonnia has Battle Pilgrims at 0-2/1k (that one was on WarCom)
Wood Elves have Tree Kin at 0-2/1k and Eagles at 0-3/1k (in fact for WE, the only 0-1/1ks are things that were Lords in previous editions).
HE have both Eagles and Bolt Throwers at 0-2/1k


Things being 0-1 entirely is a different matter, but that’s not affected by 1999 pts vs 2k and was a thing in 6th Ed and earlier.

It's still far more rare and it's still far not equal at all.

That is the point so 1999+1 is at the current stage rather unfair or looks unfair.

Lord Zarkov wrote:Things that were Lords in earlier editions are usually 0-1/1k, but in 6th-7th you could only have 1 Lord. So similar.

The Lords were the main reason for 1999+1. You can't have a single Lord below 2000. This point tally basically disallowed you from taking ANY Lord for 6th-7th. I don't know what this new Edition having seen the book, yet, but it's hard for old habits to die.

Not Online!!! wrote:That is the point so 1999+1 is at the current stage rather unfair or looks unfair.

It can be, particularly for some armies. With the 6th Ed Vampire Counts you couldn't take a Vampire to be General of your Army, and had to rely on a Necromancer to lead an army unless you went with a Necrarch Hero. What this usually mean is that as soon as squishy magic guy dies, the army started Crumbling. Tomb Kings were pretty much the same, except they always had to take both a warrior general and a Wizard to keep the army from Crumbling, so for them it was only Heroes that could fill those roles.

 Charistoph wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:Things that were Lords in earlier editions are usually 0-1/1k, but in 6th-7th you could only have 1 Lord. So similar.

The Lords were the main reason for 1999+1. You can't have a single Lord below 2000. This point tally basically disallowed you from taking ANY Lord for 6th-7th. I don't know what this new Edition having seen the book, yet, but it's hard for old habits to die.

In TOW most things that were Lords in previous editions are 1/1k, so you can have 2 at 2k or 1 at 1999.

Though sometimes there are multiple lines for different ‘Lords’ (e.g. Bretonnians can have 1 Duke + 1/1k Prophetess/Baron or WE who can have 1/1k of the Elven Lords + 1/1k Treeman Ancient).
Or you’ve got goblins who can have as many L4 wizards and Warlords as they want (only Orcs are restricted).

 march10k wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Good news, GW itself already putting in additional comp for Warhammer World events

(rule of three on everything, including core)

That's a decent bit of comp, but not enough. Still allows two ridden star dragons, etc.

It's specifically for a 1500pt event, so there won't be 2 ridden SDs.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:Things that were Lords in earlier editions are usually 0-1/1k, but in 6th-7th you could only have 1 Lord. So similar.

The Lords were the main reason for 1999+1. You can't have a single Lord below 2000. This point tally basically disallowed you from taking ANY Lord for 6th-7th. I don't know what this new Edition having seen the book, yet, but it's hard for old habits to die.

In TOW most things that were Lords in previous editions are 1/1k, so you can have 2 at 2k or 1 at 1999.

Though sometimes there are multiple lines for different ‘Lords’ (e.g. Bretonnians can have 1 Duke + 1/1k Prophetess/Baron or WE who can have 1/1k of the Elven Lords + 1/1k Treeman Ancient).
Or you’ve got goblins who can have as many L4 wizards and Warlords as they want (only Orcs are restricted).

My point was that Lords weren't available a 1/1K in 6th and 7th, and that limiting Lords was an old habit from back then. It doesn't look like things have change in that area for some people. It might be some issues left over from 8th Edition when the Lords cost couldn't exceed 25% of the army's total.

I own many armies and plan to pick up some new things too. But out the gate I am rocking the legions of Ptra! Aka tomb kings. Chariot characters are worth taking again and now destroyer can be mounted this is an excellent build. Backed up by some cheap and plentiful Skelly blocks, double SSC and a healthy amount of chaff and magic. Later I will revisit my woodies. But I'm saving that one for now since the avoidance potential looks pretty potent.

I was going to do Orcs and Goblins, but I found my old warriors of chaos from 8th edition. they need work, and movement / conversion trays, but I have nearly 2,000 points.
And, look at this old Spawn I found at the bottom of my foam: